Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.
 
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    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.

    You know what...I am not the kind of person who is all about tracing/swiping witchhunts. And I'm not calling for one now.

    But I found this the other night myself and I still feel it needs to be shared.

    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.

    This isn't even 'swiping'. This is blatant tracing.
    I caught this because I have searched for "scared girl" myself to use as a reference before and I recognized this image when I saw it in the comic. Yes, I added my own personal feelings to this image. No, I do not think I am being overly dramatic.

    This person is employed by Marvel Comics for one of their best selling comic books and most recognizable characters. He's known for having a Tony Stark that looks exactly like Sawyer from Lost, but this is the first (that I have seen) where it is a blatant trace-job. It's really disgraceful, imo.

    I just think of how many people Marvel COULD be employing that don't trace AND can meet deadlines.

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    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.

    sb most art copied to page 1
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    Here's one of the Sawyer skeptics.
    http://joevince3.wordpress.com/


    And this guy suspects him of using Spain's Prime Minister.
    http://www.weeklycrisis.com/2010/06/...sborn-and.html

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    And then God said, "Let us make man in our likeness and our image. Let us make him ridiculously hard to draw so that poor artists everywhere will have to spend 10,000+ hours failing repeatedly before they can begin to capture the form and likeness onto a two-dimensional surface." And there was man. And it was good. And artists everywhere lost their minds.
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    Salvador's Sawyer is mentioned in this discussion at 9:27. Their complaint about him is that it takes you out of the story. They make some other good points and ask some reasonable questions too. What should the consequences be if one is caught tracing? Does the copied artist/photographer care? Does too much photo-realism lead to static and rigid gestures?



    Last edited by manlybrian; February 25th, 2012 at 03:41 AM.
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    And then God said, "Let us make man in our likeness and our image. Let us make him ridiculously hard to draw so that poor artists everywhere will have to spend 10,000+ hours failing repeatedly before they can begin to capture the form and likeness onto a two-dimensional surface." And there was man. And it was good. And artists everywhere lost their minds.
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    I definitely think it is shit. He's obviously not the first, but I think he's one of the most blatant.
    This was a case where I knew for a fact I could find the photo and prove it.

    It's funny...because a few years ago simply copying another artist's POSE was considered bad form. Now we are full on tracing photos and calling it comic book art?
    Marvel should be ashamed for putting someone like this on one of their leading titles. And the guy should just be ashamed period.

    For the record, I don't buy the "but he's got deadlines!" excuse. That's crap...do your job.

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    LOL

    Dude, if you ever do sequential art (storyboards, comics) on a work for hire basis with a tight deadline and the art direction/house style is a realistic style...google tracing is totally a legit deadline crunching technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    I just think of how many people Marvel COULD be employing that don't trace AND can meet deadlines.
    A lot of good artist won't work interiors for Marvel because tracing and using refs is beneath them, so no way they'll make deadlines for a monthly book.

    1 to 1 swiping (like copying another artist's work), yeah...I'd have a problem with that. But tracing for some panels I'd totally do it and I'm not ashamed to say it. Marvel editors and pros have been doing this forever 'cuz they acknowledge it's a valid technique. Hello, Greg Land.

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    i understand that doing a comic must be pretty hardcore, especialy with time contraints etc, but that is a pretty bad case haha, he really has taken like 99% of the image haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    using refs is beneath them
    Well, fuck them.

    Using refs is NOT THE SAME AS TRACING.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    google tracing is totally a legit deadline crunching technique.
    Except it's not legit if they don't own the photos they are tracing, something that generally happens when you take stuff from Google Image Search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TinyBird View Post
    Except it's not legit if they don't own the photos they are tracing, something that generally happens when you take stuff from Google Image Search.
    And how'd you know Larroca didn't contact and compensate the owner of the photo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    Marvel editors and pros have been doing this forever 'cuz they acknowledge it's a valid technique. Hello, Greg Land.
    Marvel readers and collectors (some of 'em, anyway) acknowledge it's a sneaky technique.

    http://jimsmash.blogspot.com/search?q=greg+land

    ...which is only my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vermis View Post
    Marvel readers and collectors (some of 'em, anyway) acknowledge it's a sneaky technique.
    Marvel legal department obviously has lots of dough to take care of ref ownership issues.

    If they let Greg Land do it all this time why can't other regular Marvel artist use the same technique?

    On the other extreme Liefeld is still making comics with his wacky anatomy and getting paid for it whereas a lot of "artist's artist" out there are having a hard time getting back to doing regular monthlies or can't make a go with their creator owned projects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    And how'd you know Larroca didn't contact and compensate the owner of the photo?
    I'm not talking about Larroca, I'm talking about your blank statement that "Google tracing is totally legit". Especially when in the same post you talk about how tight deadlines the artists have in a deadline crunch, if they have to resort to tracing because of the deadlines, do you think they will always scourge the internet for the photographer (like for example, the girl image is from a Russian image host site that has contacts, but if they find a more random image that doesn't show the contact/photographer and is hosted in a completely unrelated site, they'd have to do some real digging), contact them, wait them to contact back, and potentially pay them for using their photo? That could easily take days, something not very suitable for tight deadlines unless you have prepared for that in advance (which is possible, but could also be used to just take your own photos).
    Not to mention, isn't Grag Land also known to copy and trace stuff from movies/celebrities, magazine covers etc?

    EDIT: Not to mention, even if they really do all the appropriate steps and get permissions of their Google images, it will still put a shadow of doubt over the artist if it's found out, because obviously we have very little ways of knowing if whether they went with the legal or illegal route. And I don't think artists are somehow blind to this, but it would be so easy to avoid by just using their own photos (both on the "omg they're tracing!" and the "did they just steal that photo?").

    Last edited by TinyBird; February 25th, 2012 at 11:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinyBird View Post
    Not to mention, isn't Grag Land also known to copy and trace stuff from movies/celebrities, magazine covers etc?
    Exactly

    If I were to work for Marvel/DC and they've allowed Greg Land and others to carry on with blatant tracing for years...why can't I do the same.

    Copyright laws says don't do it but these guys are still doing it regardless. So, why hinder myself from competing with others who want to get on the regular titles. I mean if you as an artist can get mainstream comic work without tracing good for you. I can't draw an overhead perspective of a specific make of an SUV on a specific highway without resorting to photos. I've seen the argument for non-tracing photos but it's honestly more efficient to just trace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    If I were to work for Marvel/DC and they've allowed Greg Land and others to carry on with blatant tracing for years...why can't I do the same.
    Just because someone else is doing something without consequences, it doesn't mean it is right or you should do it. Or that it would look good. Personally I'd have more pride with my work, especially since tracing tends to generate pretty crappy and stiff looking art (the original image is a pretty good example on that). Not to mention I personally wouldn't want to get the title of "that guy who traces photos illegally" in the comic community if a shitstorm got started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TinyBird View Post
    Personally I'd have more pride with my work, especially since tracing tends to generate pretty crappy and stiff looking art (the original image is a pretty good example on that).
    Can you monetize your pride? Is it worth the same or better than the page rates these trace artists get?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
    It's funny...because a few years ago simply copying another artist's POSE was considered bad form. Now we are full on tracing photos and calling it comic book art?
    You have a romanticized view of comics history. This is absolutely nothing new. For instance, http://www.recalledcomics.com/Doctor...15AmyGrant.php.
    For that matter, did you know Batman's very first appearance (the cover of DETECTIVE 27) was an Alex Raymond swipe?
    And finally, don't forget Wally Wood's motto, which he had framed and hanging on his studio wall: "Never draw anything you can copy, never copy anything you can trace, never trace anything you can cut out and paste up."
    (And Woody could draw you, me, and anybody else under the table.)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    Can you monetize your pride? Is it worth the same or better than the page rates these trace artists get?
    Well, thankfully I have a job where I don't have to resort to tracing, so I can keep doing comics that I don't have to trace and keep practicing so I can hopefully keep drawing without tracing (though at least I own my own camera). I am lucky like that, though it's likely that their page rates give more money than I get.

    EDIT: Though for some reason it seems you take that I'm all-out-against tracing when even my first comment only pointed out that tracing is not legit if you don't use the photos legally.

    Last edited by TinyBird; February 25th, 2012 at 12:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Yes, integrity typically has monetary value.
    Sure, whatever works for you.

    Chef Anthony Bourdain in his first book recounted a time in cooking school where he bested everyone in his class in a chicken soup making exam (or something like that.) Why he won? He freaking used chicken cubes for flavor while the losers sweated making their stock.

    He did drugs too but he's clean now (except for one show episode in Amsterdam). He's got kids and his world famous.

    Anyway...I recommend doing whatever works for you. And because others say no to one process of making art, it doesn't mean it's no for you too.

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    I think it's pretty low rent, grabbing the very first image that comes up on an Images search of "scared girl." Cheezy. At least have enough pride to cover your freaking tracks a little.

    I've used every form of tracing known to man (in-house illustrator for an engineering company; it was totally expected that I would trace my reference as needed). I'm certainly not agin' it on principle, but that's just...sad.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
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    but is it Art?

    In the future, everyone will have 15 minutes of privacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidmonk3j View Post
    but is it Art?
    Busy pros only have to convince Marvel/DC/Image that it is to secure their next gig or contract.


    Process by Tony Harris, artist for Ex Machina

    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.

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    "At least have enough pride to cover your freaking tracks a little."

    This was exactly what you suggested re deleting the citation numbers when ripping text off Wikipedia in forum posts....

    Somehow you equate pride with being devious, whereas normal people dont actually mind others knowing theyre quoting wikipedia or (stock images) and arnt sad- sorry proud, enough to try to conceal that fact.

    This comic artist clearly just had to kick the work out the door and used google image search for ref, and whose "pride" was more tied up with completing the job on time and telling a story well. Youll be telling us Durer wasnt an artist because he used a camera obscura all the time next.

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    I'm just going to leave this right here:
    http://fuck-no-greg-land.tumblr.com/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    Busy pros only have to convince Marvel/DC/Image that it is to secure their next gig or contract.


    Process by Tony Harris, artist for Ex Machina

    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.
    Thats not traced, thats used as ref.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timpaatkins View Post
    Thats not traced, thats used as ref.
    LOL

    You have good eye. You should be a Marvel editor.

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    Wait... people still read Marvel comics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "At least have enough pride to cover your freaking tracks a little."

    This was exactly what you suggested re deleting the citation numbers when ripping text off Wikipedia in forum posts....

    Somehow you equate pride with being devious, whereas normal people dont actually mind others knowing theyre quoting wikipedia or (stock images) and arnt sad- sorry proud, enough to try to conceal that fact.

    This comic artist clearly just had to kick the work out the door and used google image search for ref, and whose "pride" was more tied up with completing the job on time and telling a story well. Youll be telling us Durer wasnt an artist because he used a camera obscura all the time next.
    Honestly, I have no idea what your point is.

    Normal people steal without guilt?

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
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    I'm sorry, but I just see a lot of excuses in this thread for this.

    I get it now (in reading other forums, especially in non-artist forums where it is simply comic fans replying) that people actually do not really care. So I'm certainly not going to try to argue against something that people have decided is acceptable behavior, apparently.

    But if the writer stole lines of dialogue (in a non-homage manner) word for word and used them as his own, he'd be laughed out of town because that's plagiarism. The issue of tracing is cheesy as hell. As an artist myself, I think he should be able to do it himself if he's employed for being an artist. But the real issue is using someone else's photo to do all the work for you.

    And I do not buy it for one second that he got permission and paid the photographer. Just....come on. I realize we don't know for a fact, but would you do that? If you are already in the tracing mindset (meaning you probably trace every chance you can get if it will shave off a few minutes), the list of people you would have to contact and pay would be huge.

    You have a romanticized view of comics history.
    You are right, I do. I actually recall hearing that Neal Adams traced all of the backgrounds back in the day saying that (paraphrase) "I'm not paid to do anything other than tell a story, however I get there is my business". I guess my point was just that it seems the envelope keeps getting pushed. This is acceptable today, what will be acceptable tomorrow?

    Well, I don't find it acceptable, personally. I don't think you should "cover your tracks", per se...but at least inject some of your own artistic personality into it a little bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji Bryant View Post
    Process by Tony Harris, artist for Ex Machina

    Salvador Larroca (Iron man artist) caught in blatant tracing.
    I could be wrong Koji, but that looks like a photoshoot of models set up by the artist to provide them with the necessary reference? If so, that's a significantly different thing than grabbing someone's photo of the net and tracing it.

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