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Thread: Graphic designers are ruining the web

  1. #31
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    Good Point, QueenGwenevere! I was a web developer for a number of years. The general procedure is to create the website, in the beginning (you layout the images, coding, database back-ends (if needed), etc). Website is completed. Then you're off to the next job and there is usually someone there to maintain it. As time goes by, management, content manager, marketing, etc say.. "Hey! We need to update our site with more information". So, they just tack it on. The original people (like me) are usually gone onto other jobs. After a year or two, the website it out of date (it's amazing how fast web technology changes), so the website needs to be updated. There are two paths: Patch the current one or design a brand new site.

    The tough part is that, to do the really fancy stuff that everyone wants, you do some pretty tricky coding. However, no matter how well you design it, you always run into compatibility issues (it may work on IE 6.1, but not with IE 6.2 but works with Mac Safari, but not with Mac Safari 8.5, etc)... it's enough to give you nightmares (which is why I don't do that work anymore).

    Someone commented about just having text links. When I first was surfing the web (bitnet/arpanet days), that's what we had... you ended up pressing [1] Site 1 [2]Site 2, etc. It wasn't very interesting, but you did get to find some interesting stuff.

    When the web became popular in the early 90's, most magazine companies figured "Hey! We'll just take our full graphic page (as one image) and put that up.... That's all that we need to do. The bandwidth was much smaller and those pages crawled. Eventually, they realized that they couldn't do stuff like that, so that they hired code-jockeys like me to help them. They were throwing so much money around that there were a ton of people getting into the field that had no idea what they were doing. Lots of the websites were just plain ugly (flashing buttons, garish colors, etc), slow and had lots of crashes.

    Nowadays, most of the professional websites are actually pretty good. With html templates becoming more popular and cart sites, etc, it's becoming more stable. The issue is that the current big web feature is videos, which seriously suck up bandwidth. That's not going away any time soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    Welcome to OTT website. Please ensure your volume is turned up full and do not skip into - you will regret it even more. Actually this is tame compared to the one I wanted to show, which was totally awesome in a way that you couldn't believe it would ever exist. (knew I should've bookmarked it).
    You made my 8 month old son cry Blackspot! Bad Blackspot.

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    I think Graphic Designers are even thought of as Fine Artists and Illustrators, let alone web page developers. I think Graphic Designers want to take over everything....and ruin everything too.

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    Most graphic designers get into web development either because the mid-sized company they work for doesnt have a dedicated web developer, or when their website was built they paid to have back-end access and it becomes part of the GD's job to update the site... or they set up their own business and realise the number of funky posters that need designing is dwarfed by the number of websites people need doing and shift their skill set.

    The guys I work with in one of my companies started as graphic designers but now handle the whole marketing process for their clients... i guess if you want to make money you have to be flexible.. the world doesnt really need any more David Carsons.. or at least there isnt much work for them...

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; February 27th, 2012 at 12:52 PM.
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    Most graphic designers become web designers because that's a fundamental part of what graphic design IS these days.

    I mean, come on, most publications are at least 50/50 print and web now. You can't really become a graphic designer and NOT do anything for the web and/or mobile.

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  8. #36
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    Exactly

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    One of my annoyances with web design these days is when the company goes with a new format. Or need to add stupid pop ups nagging you for a survey or to talk with a chat bot.

    Wacom is an example in this case - when they redesigned the site, and I post up driver links they become 404's because they're using asp instead of php or whatever the hell they felt like during their site design.

    I look at Petsmart the other day to find out about small animals they carry in their store
    http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...&lmdn=Pet+Type
    I like the layout, and it promises more information in the guise of "PetSmart offers several hamster species. Here's some information to help you make an educated decision about which species of hamster will best fit your family." Clickhttp://promotions.petsmart.com/landing/hamster/hamster-species.shtml

    Click on it 404. Go talk to a live person at the store, I get inconsistent information on what's the difference in paying for a 10 dollar "Long Haired Hamster/Short Haired" and a 15-20 dollar "Fancy Bear Hamster" (of course they're all the same hamster breed Syrian/Golden with different colors or hair length) but no one at the store can give me information what kinds of hair colors make certain hamsters cost more since I see banded variety on all kinds they're selling.

    So, thought I'd be a nice person and try their "Contact Us" (which makes it a headache in itself - I know there's bots and you want email to go to the right department but yeesh), and used the email on their page - only to get no response at all. Their 800 line is a headache...so hey I guess they like having broken pages.

    If that's not bad enough, you're inundated with surveys these days. If you're not at full screen you don't always get the X (or close button) on your browser.

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    Graphic design is about making things read better and delivering the message effectively. If anything the things people are complaining here is the lack off

    There also seems to be a somewhat broad misunderstanding as to what graphic design is, and even what illustration is, which very well fits as another part of the graphic design big picture.

    But changing a persons narrow views about anything other people do is not my problem, and i digress. I was meaning to add that a graphic designer in an incredible percent of cases is not even involved in the making of a website. I for one donīt code (for the time being at least i am not involved with web at all), most of my peers also dont code, ideally a team would require collaboration between a programmer and a g.designer , but ideally is not reality and the tech folk with no background other than informatic will take on everything with obvious outcomes.

    Also, the client factor, is real.

    Last edited by JDSart; February 27th, 2012 at 10:13 PM.
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    This thread title is a stupid-head!



    And GD's are not the ones at fault as has been stated and shown in many a post (I bow to the Queen good seeing you around.)

    But, ignorance is bliss, as long as you don't open your mouth.

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    "So, thought I'd be a nice person and try their "Contact Us" (which makes it a headache in itself - I know there's bots and you want email to go to the right department but yeesh), and used the email on their page - only to get no response at all. Their 800 line is a headache...so hey I guess they like having broken pages."

    I wonder if those kind of systems are designed that way as a feature to absorb peoples anger but prevent actual complaints by longing it out so people quit in exhaustion.

    "Go talk to a live person at the store, I get inconsistent information on what's the difference in paying for a 10 dollar "Long Haired Hamster/Short Haired" and a 15-20 dollar "Fancy Bear Hamster" (of course they're all the same hamster breed Syrian/Golden with different colors or hair length) but no one at the store can give me information what kinds of hair colors make certain hamsters cost more"

    ha ha ha thats a wicked crank call, its like a moebius strip, do it next time with like a massive lisp or a cut glass New England millionaires accent or something and record it.. "Id like the Short Haired Bear Hamster but with Long Hair, not Fancy, please and I only want to pay $11.73!" And threaten to throw a cat at them, stuff like that! id watch that.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; February 27th, 2012 at 08:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I think the problem derives from the very nature of the web. In order to produce good content, time must be expended. Since time is money, people who provide content must be able to make money at it or else end up destitute and/or feeling abused by freeloaders.

    So content and the monetization of the viewer must coexist.

    This marriage of content and monetization is either awkward, where white space (like the air time in between segments of a sitcom) are filled with advertisements which pay for the content. Or the marriage is more like a synthesis and the content itself is a form of selling (infomercials, political discussions, most business websites.)
    The internet is just a series of tubes that connect all of us together. There's not a single broadcast tower sending out content in a one-way fashion. It's multiple people sharing a connection. TV or radio can't touch that.

    People are willing to give up content without anything in return. Look at Wikipedia. Look at instructables, videojug, Wonder how to, how stuff works, etc. Look at all the professors and professionals blogging and creating sites like CA.org so they can share their hard work for nothing.

    The internet isn't supposed to be a paid content delivery system for businesses. Though it can and is used that way. That's not what defines the internet or dictates how it should be used to transfer information.

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    Personally I think the statement "Graphic Designers are ruining the web." Is not only biased but extremely misinformed.

    As someone who is considered, among other things, a "Graphic Designer" as well as a "Web Designer/Developer" in the professional world, understand the situation in its entirety; from concept to realization.

    First, I draw a clear distinction between Graphic and Web design and Web Development as rarely do graphics and web designers know the true extent of coding nor do web developers know the intricacies of fine art and design. When they do crossover to either side, they usually only study the basics, enough to complete certain jobs with minimal knowledge.

    Now a good website, in my opinion, should ideally only be worked on or headed by two individuals who specialize in these fields depending on the magitude of the site. However, this is almost never the case as businesses like to save money and assume that because a person has produced a website that they can create quality graphics and coding in a timely fashion.
    On top of that, this team or individual, has to satisfy the customer who who is usually represented by a marketing/sales employee who has no concept of the amount of work or time it takes to marry these elements properly. Not to mention that clients pretty much never know what quality design or coding is in the first place.

    Working as an individual fulfilling all three of the aforementioned design rolls, i have produced and presented functional, aesthetically pleasing works to major companies who would hire me on that basis. On the other hand, once I start creating and modifying work to the specifications of sales people, it becomes something like what you see more commonly on the web.

    Among complications like the many you all have mentioned are things like adjusting to the types of content; just because something looks good doesn't mean its functional or that its appropriate for every type of data.
    Design is also limited by compatibility with browsers as well as the back-end which is composed of management systems and databases which also play a big role in the design due to their functionality. If it is being updated often or even occasionally, and not by a coder/designer it needs to be easily accessible and recognizable on the front-end by computer illiterates.

    If you ask me, what is ruining not only the web, but the world, are people who think they know everything because they gain their information from either a singular source if not a narrowly scoped group.

    Arrogance and ego. Everyone wants to think they know better, every individual wants to think they're original, unique, special, and that they're right in the way they think. I understand this train of thought, but its wrong.
    The odds are someone is doing what you do and better at any given time. Someone out there is innovating, imagining, and creating things with a better, broader understanding of concepts you've never even dreamed of or are too stubborn to consider.

    I digress... but if anyone thinks they know better than someone else in a situation they personally have little to no in-depth experience with... just sayin its probably not a very well conceived thought.

    For the record, I don't consider myself a graphic or web designer.

    Last edited by LordBalen; March 1st, 2012 at 06:17 PM.
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    As a Web designer i'm offended.

    The Guy that wrote that Blog post likes this:

    "The websites and pages that I like tend to be as underdesigned as they are cognitively loaded. Take for example, the home page of Peter Norvig"

    http://norvig.com/

    Do you people really want web sites to look like this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stgodd View Post
    As a Web designer i'm offended.

    The Guy that wrote that Blog post likes this:

    "The websites and pages that I like tend to be as underdesigned as they are cognitively loaded. Take for example, the home page of Peter Norvig"

    http://norvig.com/

    Do you people really want web sites to look like this?
    Yup. That is exactly how I prefer websites to look. I also like the look of Nassim Taleb's site:

    http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/

    (It basically looks pretty much like Norvig's).

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    Is this what you want the internet to look like?



    Hell no, this is what it should look like because I need a paycheck:



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    Well there's a lot of people out there that are "Graphic Designers" but know little to nothing about design. Instead of trying to simplify and communicate something they try to be artsy and forget (or they never learned) some basics about keeping things simple. Focus on communication not making shit artsy.


    The designs I like are simple yet effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    Is this what you want the internet to look like?

    Yes, if it is information that I am after.

    Hell no, this is what it should look like because I need a paycheck:

    I like this too, when I want my senses to be fed.

    And that is the heart of the matter: the graphic design should serve the function. When it does, adding a bit of colour and graphics to a site like Norvig's might well actually improve it (for one thing, I like pages to have about the same colour as those of CA - the bright white tires the eyes. I also prefer a font like Arial - it also seems easier on the eyes when read on a screen than fonts originally invented for paper.)

    But in the end, when I read through a site like Wikipedia or How Stuff Works, I am there for the information, not to be wowed by the pretty design. I haven't used How Stuff Works in ages, because its design has become so excessive that it is now a very annoying barrier between me and the information. Wiki is much simpler to read.

    Similarly, as I noted before, I now mostly surf around the Web Gallery of Art rather than the ARC's site, for the same reason: I prefer not to have to wade through tons of bandwidth-intensive designs to get to what I am actually there for.

    On the other hand, when the design is primarily intended to be pretty in the first place, then the prettier the better. I love medieval illuminated manuscripts, for example. But we must keep in mind that the most spectacular of those were emphatically not written to be read. The books they wrote for everyday reading were far more minimalistic in their design, and for good reasons. Apparently medieval monks had more sense than modern managers. :-)

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    Having a copy of Photoshop and Illustrator does not, a Graphic Designer, make.

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    Yeah, but, the issue of web design is not just pretty pictures/easy flow. It really depends on the purpose of the site. (If I was needing the information on Norvig's site, it's not bad. I can easily get to what I want).

    One of the sites that I use all of the time is: http://www.vtk.org/doc/nightly/html/annotated.html

    I don't need fancy pictures, etc... I just need to be able to quickly find my image class and then get to the description of the class.

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    The article was right about one thing:

    It used to be that the web browser controlled how a page looked.

    So every webpage had three sets of specific instructions and resolution settings on how to optimally view their webpage in Internet Explorer, Netscape Navigator, and Opera.

    Oh, and every website required different settings from the other websites for their particular optimal viewing.

    I remember those days. And they were fucking awful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    The internet is just a series of tubes that connect all of us together. There's not a single broadcast tower sending out content in a one-way fashion. It's multiple people sharing a connection. TV or radio can't touch that.

    People are willing to give up content without anything in return. Look at Wikipedia. Look at instructables, videojug, Wonder how to, how stuff works, etc. Look at all the professors and professionals blogging and creating sites like CA.org so they can share their hard work for nothing.

    The internet isn't supposed to be a paid content delivery system for businesses. Though it can and is used that way. That's not what defines the internet or dictates how it should be used to transfer information.
    Buck,

    Wikipedia does not provide original content (it is all aggregated) and secured $20m in donations through ads and other forms of solicitation. All the other sites you mention have ads too.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    People fail to say that graphic design doesn't mean having intense, resource heavy images. Typographjy is graphic design. Those shitty text based websites are a kind of design.

    Good design is always about serving the purpose of enhancing overall experience with visual aesthetics while maintaining functionality. "Prettier" doesn't mean more colors and images.
    Bad designs are like that Absolut poster and plain unformated text blocks. Bad design doesn't contribute anything positive to the user, which is what most of you are referring to.

    Any design worth noting is a balance of aesthetics and simplicity. In cases of informational sites that are largely text based, colors, shapes and layout can still be used minimally and effectively to bring focus to the appropriate content. Text shouldn't be plain all the time nor do graphics need to be in your face constantly.

    If you don't know what design is, quit talking about it as if you're an authority on the subject. Just because you're trying to be an artist or read blogs from other people doesn't mean you have an adequate let alone accurate grasp of the concept.

    The author of the article is also idiotic enough to think that having less downloaded files means less bulk, when in fact pretty much anyone who knows anything about digital media or websites in general is that its much faster to load various images that have been broken down into multiple parts than it is to download several large images. Sure using less images overall would be ideal, but the number of downloads you make visiting a site does not reflect the amount of data you're retrieving.

    The OP obviously is unreasonably biased and to be honest, quite ignorant.

    In reality, almost everything anyone uses today from software to physical books including the fonts, the page layouts and covers, to brands, icons, any multitude of product designs you can imagine is most likely conceptualized by some form of a graphic designer.

    Again I say, its not graphics designers who are ruining the web, its people who think they know better than everyone else and then find themselves a couple of like-minded fools who end up circle jerking to the rhythmic strokes of their ego.

    #ignoranceisbliss

    Last edited by LordBalen; March 2nd, 2012 at 11:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Buck,

    Wikipedia does not provide original content (it is all aggregated) and secured $20m in donations through ads and other forms of solicitation. All the other sites you mention have ads too.
    A hobby turned career. Wikipedia does not automatically aggregate content. Unlike a search engine.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    Sucks how those designers killed the web and nobody uses it anymore.

    BTW, wikipedia is ad-free. Its funded solely by donations

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    as a graphic designer, i think this is stupid bullshit.
    most of my friends use word press, blogger, cargo collective, subfolio, or indexhibit to build their sites. these are as simple and clean as you can possibly get.
    i'm currently using subfolio:

    www.thedirtsyndicate.org

    from what i've seen this is the new trend for designers. clean and simple, easy to navigate. i'll agree, in the mid 90's people went banannas with flash sites, long animated intro's, annoying music etc. but thats been frowned upon for YEARS.

    whoever wrote that article doesn't know what they're talking about.

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  39. #56
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    PROOF.
    here are my design inspiration links:
    http://delicious.com/complete2/design

    go through them. almost 100% have super simple, clean, easy to navigate websites.
    have fun.


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  41. #57
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Wikipedia has ads that solicit donations to wikipedia. That's what I meant. I believe they've met their funding so those funding requests are absent right now.

    I will concede that wikipedia has a different operating model than most sites... the wiki template being the most obvious manifestation of it. But it still is not providing original content, regardless of how you define "aggregate". And it still needs to pay for server space and security.

    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=101106

    My "Smilechild" Music. Plus a medley of Commercial Music Cues and a Folksy Jingle!:
    http://www.myspace.com/kevferrara
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    My point wasn't that it was providing original content at all. My point was that providing original content is irrelevant. Except to you because I know how much you like OC. It still requires work and lots of man hours whether it's the programmers creating a new site or the people gathering information and editing it. These are hours from people's free time spent to create something without the proverbial carrot dangling from a stick to edge them on.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDirtSyndicate View Post
    as a graphic designer, i think this is stupid bullshit.
    most of my friends use word press, blogger, cargo collective, subfolio, or indexhibit to build their sites. these are as simple and clean as you can possibly get.
    i'm currently using subfolio:

    www.thedirtsyndicate.org

    from what i've seen this is the new trend for designers. clean and simple, easy to navigate. i'll agree, in the mid 90's people went banannas with flash sites, long animated intro's, annoying music etc. but thats been frowned upon for YEARS.

    whoever wrote that article doesn't know what they're talking about.
    Thank you. The thank you button doesn't cut it this time. That's how I much thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalen View Post
    The OP obviously is unreasonably biased
    Of course I'm biased. To have any likes and dislikes at all is a form of bias. :-)

    and to be honest, quite ignorant.
    How can I be ignorant about what I myself do and don't like?

    In any event, my apologies to the graphic designers: it seems clear from this thread that it's their clients who are ruining the web, by not letting the designers get on with their job. As you point out, minimal design is still a design. Mind you, minimal design is also easy and for many types of sites can be achieved with a few simple HTML flags, which makes me wonder why one needs to pay a graphic designer a fortune to do what one can do oneself in an afternoon.

    ____________________________________________
    My sketchbook thread:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...ight=blogmatix
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