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  1. #76
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    • The people who declare painting dead are usually looking for attention for themselves.

    • Design is an art, but not a deep one. People who have a designer's sensibility hate to hear that they aren't deep compared to a great painter/composer. And they don't see the difference in depth because they don't have the talent, so they feel they are being slighted in some pretentious way on some non-existent basis and it bothers them. The most trying issue when dealing with a weak imagination is that they don't have the ability to imagine that they aren't as talented as really talented people. I'm still trying to work on just why there will always be people who can't experience aesthetic emotion from anything but cartoons or graphics, where it is sitting right on the surface. It must be related to the fact that really strong, deep artwork is quite unnerving to many. Maybe because some people can't intuitively cogitate the synthesis of form and content at that level of complexity so they would prefer not to be confronted with it at all. I remember when I was a kid responding to really bold, loud expressionistic cartoons. And then that kind of work just went dead to me at some point and didn't cause any sense of wonder any longer.

    So, I don't think it is an accident that both modernism and the Sunday funnies cartoons both exploded in the culture at once in the early part of the 20th century. Because they both provide simple bold colors and outlines, simple poetics and content... entertainment for the mind of average sensitivity... the demos. The only difference is the level of frivolity in cartoons versus the aesthetic aims/claims and politics of modern art. (It is interesting to note how average of talent and sensitivity were the people who got involved in modernism, either as artists, fans, or philosophers.)

    Anyway, I"m just telling the truth as I see it. Hope nobody is offended

    • Bill, yes that Harvey Dunn is in the new book.
    Last edited by kev ferrara; February 21st, 2012 at 09:40 AM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  4. #77
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    Painting is not dead!

    @Kev
    I'm not offended, I'm pretty laidback and I think making claims about other people's sensibilities says more about yourself than anything else.
    I could speculate on why people need things muted down and prettified to be able to experience aesthetic emotion, but honestly I think it's pretentious and plain dumb to go on like that.

    On a serious note, it is always hard to understand why people don't like the awesome things we like. I don't doubt that you get a lot more out of Dunn than I do, but I also don't doubt that I get a lot more out of Matisse than you do. In the end I think the experience is quite similar. But we will never know, will we. All I can do is assure you that I get profound experiences when I look at the art I like, and it is very different from reading the sunday cartoons, jeez Kev!

    @Medelo
    Yes, I think it comes down to taste. I think it's strange to think that a painting or artist could appeal to all people, when people are so very different! Just look at music, even if I know people who like the same bands as me, we still don't like the same songs, and so on. I think it's one thing to recognize that something is good, but being personally touched by it is something altogether different.
    Also, Matisse does more than arrange formal ingredients. If that was all he did, I would agree it was shallow!
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  6. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    Perhaps it is intentional:

    "In my picture of the Night Café I have tried to express the idea that the café is a place where one can ruin oneself, go mad or commit a crime. So I have tried to express, as it were, the powers of darkness in a low public house, by soft Louis XV green and malachite, contrasting with yellow-green and harsh blue-greens, and all this in an atmosphere like a devil's furnace, of pale sulphur."

    Let's see if anyone here has a seizure, shall we? :-)
    *faint*

  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyTingleTimes View Post
    @Kev
    I'm not offended, I'm pretty laidback and I think making claims about other people's sensibilities says more about yourself than anything else.
    I could speculate on why people need things muted down and prettified to be able to experience aesthetic emotion...
    If you are still at an age where you respond emotionally to cartoons, that's fine. Your sensitivities may change over time. Or not. Either way, you are betraying your ignorance here when you characterize the Dunn as functioning aesthetically because it is muted down and prettified. Such a response is exactly what I was referring to earlier... you can't sense the meaning beneath the surface. So you think there's nothing there.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyTingleTimes View Post
    On a serious note, it is always hard to understand why people don't like the awesome things we like. I don't doubt that you get a lot more out of Dunn than I do, but I also don't doubt that I get a lot more out of Matisse than you do. In the end I think the experience is quite similar....
    Oh? And Chopsticks is as good as the Brandenberg Concerto provided they give two different souls an emotional reaction, eh?
    Last edited by kev ferrara; February 21st, 2012 at 02:33 PM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  9. #80
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    I'm tons older than you Kev. My taste is eclectic. Whether you agree with my taste in art, I don't really care. Now this is what makes me feel sick. It actually gave me a migraine.

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  11. #81
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    You win with that one Black Spot.
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  13. #82
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    Jacob,

    You should see this painting (the one that gives you a headache) in real. It's huge, hanging on the wall in the Hermitage, in the room dedicated to Matisse. Actually, it's called The Matisse Room.

    The colors of reproduction are not true. That painting is amazing. On another wall is my very favorite of his works, "The Dance". Again, you should see it in person to appreciate.
    Matisse is one of the greatest painters considering his highest level of understanding the color and composition.

    And for those who doubt his drawing skills - hm.... no comments... check out his drawings and sketches...
    (btw, he studied at the Académie Julian under Bouguereau - the one that many of you are so much crazy about)
    www.4-art.org - art educational books
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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”

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  15. #83
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    Blackspot, I perfectly agree with you on that point. You shouldn't care what I think. And I'm glad to hear you will go on liking Matisse or whomever else you care to.

    But... there is a reality involved, an intrinsic feature, a definable quality, that sets deep art apart from not so deep art, meaningful images from decorations. For we students of art, isn't that distinction something worth attending to?

    And of course, there is a whole lot more to like in Matisse than in the junkyard, as you rightly point out.
    At least Icarus tried!


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    Book Guru, I really like that virtual museum fly through. Too bad for all that over-rated crap on the walls.

    I don't think you know anything about composition at all if you think he's a master of composition.

    Even his decorative skills leave much to be desired, compared to, say, Vuillard:
    At least Icarus tried!


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  18. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I don't think you know anything about composition at all if you think he's a master of composition.
    If you don't understand this now hopefully you'll appreciate this later.
    As they say, live and learn...
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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”

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  20. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    If you don't understand this now hopefully you'll appreciate this later.
    As they say, live and learn...
    Oh, I do hope one day to be at your level. I have so much to learn from you.
    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Either way, you are betraying your ignorance here when you characterize the Dunn as functioning aesthetically because it is muted down and prettified.
    I did? I thought I said it would be pretentious and dumb to say something like that... I liked the Dunn, and it certainly wasn't because it was muted down and prettified.
    And no, something isn't necessarily good because someone out there likes it.
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    Wait a second, wait a second...oldest poster wins?

    All right, wrinklies! Pony up!
    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).

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  24. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyTingleTimes View Post
    I did? I thought I said it would be pretentious and dumb to say something like that... I liked the Dunn, and it certainly wasn't because it was muted down and prettified.
    And no, something isn't necessarily good because someone out there likes it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyTingleTimes View Post
    I could speculate on why people need things muted down and prettified to be able to experience aesthetic emotion, but honestly I think it's pretentious and plain dumb to go on like that.
    In the context of the conversation we were having, and your critique of Dunn's painting as an abstract waiting to get out from behind the veil of realism, the second part of the above sentence seemed to me to be slightly disingenuous. Perhaps, you don't mean the first part at the strength it reads alone... because it was said in petulance. But you seem to think or feel at some level that blaring, crude work is on equal footing with well crafted meaningful work.
    Last edited by kev ferrara; February 21st, 2012 at 06:45 PM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    But... there is a reality involved, an intrinsic feature, a definable quality, that sets deep art apart from not so deep art, meaningful images from decorations. For we students of art, isn't that distinction something worth attending to.
    And art is meant to be decorations or else why would we hang it on our walls.

    I love the fact that as humans we all have different tastes, as if we all had the same, life would be pretty boring.

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