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  1. #1
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    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    I'm part of a team of North Americans working on a webcomic called Chisuji ( www.chisuji.com ). As such, I've been discussing it here and there on the net and have gotten varied responses to it in general, but did get a couple that I found..interesting. First, here is an example of the latest page of the comic, which is done in manga style:

    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    One of the responses I've gotten to this is:

    manga done by any others than japanese artists sucks big time...
    some things you just shouldnt touch, but only enjoy...
    its called respect.
    What are your opinions on that reply? Is it off the wall or a standard for the manga fan?

    Secondly, I've been told this:

    Im sorry to be the one to break this to you "Elrik Blackwolf" but furries are not cool.

    Under no circumstances are furries acceptable, other than that the art is at laest acceptable which is more than I can say for most furry work.
    The above was in response to these pages:

    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    and

    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    Is it true that any character with anthromorph / animalistic physical attributes must be a 'furry'? What about weres or shapeshifters? Are they 'verbotten' to include in a manga style work?

    What do the rest of you think? I will measure in with my views, but what to hear from this community first.
    Last edited by Eirik; May 21st, 2004 at 04:20 AM.
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com


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  3. #2
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    Eh, my opinion is that if one wants to do a certain style, manga or not, it's important that the art quality is mature and polished. If it looks wannabeish, then, I can guarantee that a lot of people will dislike it.

    For example, the anime/manga art of this canadian artist, Kurot, is certainly polished enough:

    http://www.deviantart.com/view/6986473/

    Yours isn't yet, in my honest feeling...

    I have no opinions about furries.
    ...+1 exp

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    Respect eh? Ok then, I think Japan should stop making animated shows, and stop making comic books. They didn't invent them after all!

    Though you do need to polish the style to make it look less wannabeish.

    And I don't like furries too much, because they are mostly done with little taste. The only time that I thougth they worked, was in Escaflowne, the show and the movie. Other than that, I'm not a fan of the idea, unless the furry has some sort of reason behind it, like a werewolf.

    Es fließt durch meine Venen, Es schläft in meinen Tränen
    Es läuft mir aus den Ohren, Herz und Nieren sind Motoren


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    i think you already know the answer to that "only japanese can do manga" question.

    it's a fact, there's so much manga "pollution" on the net, that it is hard for novice people to make a difference between the good and the bad productions. but in no way it is an excuse for anyone to make such an imature and dictatorial comment on the manga genre.

    still, this manga fanatism and inspiration is generally dangerous for all the creative minds out there, as it encloses and ruins a lot of them by forcing archetypes and cheap styles to a lot of artists who then have a lot of difficulties escaping from this "style eater". as it is obvious too that the talented manga artists aren't always the ones that people find inspirationnal.

    but in the end, as Aerythes and dfacto said, it is just a question of talent, nothing else.
    check out bengal's site, he certainly understood manga enough, but translated it into a mix of influences that have gone far behond basic inspiration.

    sparth

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    ^ What he said. I may not like to draw anime myself, because I believe it would stunt my artistic growth until I learn the basics, and I may not collect anime movies or watch every anime show, but anime does have some redeeming qualities. Especially when its done by bengal! The people who responded were very ignorant, do what you love, just make sure your doing it well =D

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    Well, in the interest of balance, I'm gonna paste some follow up in the thread (at Dark Horse Comics Forums) here and my responses so you all can get my take on it:

    If you're going to take this project seriously like I imagine you will, you're gonna face a lot tougher criticism in your career than what you'll face on this forum, and the old "you play with your toys and I'll play with mine" defense is not going to hold water for most of 'em. You don't have to give your thoughtful answers to these criticisms here, but you should definitely have them prepared. Fair warning.
    Fair enough. Really I avoided debating those two topics because a lot of people have...shall we say, strong feelings on the subject and I wished to sidestep the potential for a flame war errupting on the thread which detracts from its original purpose. But since you asked I'll give my take on the two topics:

    Non Japanese produced 'Manga' - Manga is a Japanese word for COMIC BOOK and it is ridiculous on the face of it to assume that no non Japanese person could produce a 'comic book'. However in American culture a certain 'style' of comic art has been associated with the word Manga, a style that is generally dominated by Japanese artists. Now, can ONLY Japanese artists produce a certain 'style' of art? No..that is an inherantly racists and closeminded statement. To feel your own work is best portrayed in a certain style and to use that style in a fashion that is YOUR OWN is not disrespectful to the style nor does it detract from the art. There is potential in fact for cultures and styles to evolve and grow if shared. That's my take on that topic.

    Furries - Personally I don't care for the sort of antromorph art which makes EVERY character a humanized animal 'just cause' the writer / artist is a fan of such. I tend to find such works tend to devolve into excursions involvng the creator's libido ... its just 'not my bag baybee!' However this does not mean I will avoid using a character who represents a mythological concept in the culture I am portraying and whose backstory concept is a major part of the plot merely because she is somewhat antromorph in appearance or is a 'furry'. Furry art has its own fanbase..I am on general terms not one of them...but I recognize that as a personal preference and not a 'rule of law'. All in all, Furry is not the focus of Chisuji anyway. That's my take on that topic.

    I hope those comments help clarify that for you. ^_^

    That being said, the pages you've shared with us seem nice enough for sure. My question to you is, why should I care? And I mean that in a literary sense, why should I invest my time in reading this comic? Could you share a little conceptual breakdown of the plot, especially one that involves what appears to be a lycanthropic gung-ho space cadet? I look forward to hearing from you in the future.
    Sure..I'll start by pasting (with permission) a review a fan gave us on his website http://bentd.blue-ball.org/:
    ---------------------------
    If you’ve been looking for some new online entertainment and like manga or other comics, then I’ve got a new “fix” for you. Chisuji is very polished for being such a young comic (Februrary of this year); the web design, art work and story telling are very well done. The team of four know what they’re doing and it shows, it took me next to no time to settle comfortably into this new world.

    The backstory revolves around an ominous Change during the 2003 US invasion of Iraq due to issues of WMD (weapons of mass destruction) when the US target an Iraqi archeological dig site. This Change is the focal point for much chaos and tragedy in the months that follow. Large numbers of people die horrible deaths, nations are forced to contend with the Change in a few short months, nobody knows any details about the cause of all this, they are just trying to cope with the after effects. The story picks up just as the world begins to acclimate to the effects of this Change.

    This fresh, young comic looks like it has tons of potential. If you’re looking for something new, this is a definite must see.

    I wish Eirik and his crew the best of luck in this and look forward to seeing more!
    -------------------------------

    Now, my addition to this is that my intent with the storyline is to present how the characters will react to events around them. Yes there are 'cool things' going on around the characters...but the focus of the story is meant to show how those things impact their lives..and what they do in reaction. I want to present topics and ideas that make the reader thing about what is going on, empathize with the characters and conjecture as to what is causing all the factors presented in the story. I'm going to try and avoid the 'expostion' syndrome that is a hallmark of American comics, which means at times the characters in the story will take things for granted that the reader doesn't quite know about, but will have to guess or speculate on.

    All in all, I want it to be something that provokes thought and enjoyment...and to be a damn good story in the process.

    Thanks!
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

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    Doesn't follow towards "actual" anime for me.
    "You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else." - Tyler Durden

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    Originally posted by Gr8t100
    Doesn't follow towards "actual" anime for me.
    What defines actual 'anime'? Please explain your definition for us...
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

  10. #9
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    Eirik - Those manga fan quotes that you put up, ignore that crap. There's so many artists who copy other artists and art styles who get hardcore respect, whether they rip it crudely or not. Some get respect easier than others, some get ridecule. Do what you like to do and do it well, and people will like your work. Just keep showing your work over and over to people, keep creating your comics, and eventually even some of those who hated your stuff will like it or at least respect it, even the biggest manga fanatics, in your case.

    I think your skillz with these comics are simple, but not wannabe-ish, because I've seen many japanese artists create anime that looks as simple as yours, some even more simple. And people like their work. There'll always be people like those in those manga fan quotes who bash your work, but there'll always be those who enjoy it. Just keep workin. Just know that different styles of art get different levels of respect for different, and many times, biased reasons. Anime is one of those where, any art that is or resembles anime doesn't get much respect by most, you have to work really hard to gain respect with it. Other styles of art, it's much easier to gain respect with because people respect the nature of the style, like realistic rendered painting, or certain types of American comic styles, Disney-ized style, etc.

    -C

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    Um... What's a furry. Been out of the manga loop for awhile.

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    A furry is a humanoid covered with hair, but with an animal head and often times tail. I only know what a furry is because they bug to hell out of me. Often times the reason as to why they are a furry is grazed over.

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    Just a few of my opinions.


    Do I think that non-japanese can make manga? Yes. A cominc book presented in an anime or manga style qualifies, and nationality doesn't affect the quality of the work. However, it can affect style. After all, japanese mainsteam is presented in anime and would end up influencing art styles. Where as other countries, due to culture, have their own mainstream styles. These styles tend to influence most people's works.

    Are furries acceptable? Of course. It's just a manga character after all. As long as they aren't cliches I won't put a second thought into whether or not they're furries. I usually care even less if the entire world is a furry world... gives it a sense of continuity if you know what I mean.

    All in all, you've done absolutely fine. Why anyone would ever tell you to stop, I couldn't say. Either they were drunk, moronic, or narrow-minded... possibly a combination of the 3. Keep up the good work!

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    your stuff aint all that bad not dynamic, I mean you seem to be a the level of trigun and thats sells and people enjoy it.
    ignore the sixteen year old fanboys out there.
    [:middle class:]

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    Originally posted by Chris J. Anderson!
    Eirik - Anime is one of those where, any art that is or resembles anime doesn't get much respect by most, you have to work really hard to gain respect with it. Other styles of art, it's much easier to gain respect with because people respect the nature of the style, like realistic rendered painting, or certain types of American comic styles, Disney-ized style, etc.
    Thanks for the comments there...though I'll disagree with the quoted comment. Why? Heres my take on it, in a paste from my site:

    Opinion by Eirik Blackwolf:
    However, what I do want to talk about today is the state of Manga and the involvement of the American influence on it…specifically American produced works in the manga style, of which Chisuji is a part of.

    Firstly, what drew most of you to anime / manga? Personally I had grown disgusted by the IMAGEization of American comics (back in the late 80s, early 90s). This was when it seemed a 'cool gimmick' or 'neat art' took precedence over storyline and most American comics seemed to give up on providing an intriguing story altogether. From what I have observed of American comics, the industry as a general whole has not seemed to recover from this failing, which is why I have yet to really pick up an American industry title since those days. When I initially stopped reading American comics, a friend introduced me to anime / manga. I was very impressed by the depth of the stories, which was matched by the quality and the care given to the art which served to compliment the story (as a general rule) rather than override it. Thus I became a devoted 'fringe' fan of the genre, enjoying bits and pieces of manga / anime I could acquire.

    Now the manga / anime style seems to be gaining popularity in America from the niche it was once to mainstream, thus sparking a lot of products both published works and web produced that mimic and style themselves on the manga / anime genre. This generally, in my opinion is a good thing, as it allows the strengths of the American comic styles to evolve into the quality provided by manga / anime, thus causing the art form to grow. However there is, in my opinion, a lot of Amerimanga that only carries the weakness of focusing on the 'cool art / gimmick' and contains no real substance or story beyond the initial veneer.

    Its my intent to have Chisuji a bit 'deeper' than that sort of thing…I want it to be a story that is complimented by the art..a story that sparks discussion, debate and above all thought in those that read it. In this, I hope to be able to advance the art form in the direction I hope it will go..and at the same time tell a story I'd love to tell.
    That help explain why I disagree with that one comment?
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

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    I think anyone can do draw 'manga-style'. I think the reasons people say that non-japanese can't do it is:

    1> All the noobs posting bad anime face scribbles all over the place. I'm sure there's noobs in Japan too, but we westerners mostly get to see the pro stuff that makes it over here in published form. Then we compare that to the kewt DBZ faces that 13 year olds post on forums.
    If you look at the japanese doujinshi scene there's a lot of badly drawn stuff by japanese artists, but many people haven't seen that.

    2> Then there's the proffesionals that try to imitate manga. Although skilled at drawing, they haven't really looked that carefully at what manga really is, so what they draw is some sort of hybrid between their style and a generic manga style (often ends up very shallow). That or they want to create a new hybrid style on purpose, best of both worlds so to speak. Doesn't look manga anyways.

    Not many skilled non-japanese artists has grown up with manga, because they are surrounded by other stuff and tugged in other directions. Now manga is getting sort of mainstream though, so maybe in 5-10 years...

    Oh yes, here's one of my attempts, a couple of years old now (2 maybe). I can't really get the flow though, and my manga-style still looks very 'constructed'.

    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?
    Last edited by Prometheus|ANJ; May 22nd, 2004 at 11:25 PM.
    Jamen jag tror att han skäms, och har gömt sig. Vårt universum det är en av dom otaliga spermasatser som Herren i sin självhärliga ensamhet har runkat fram för å besudla intet.

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    Prometheus> No need to wait for 5 to 10 years. There're already a quite a number of good non-japanese anime/manga-style artists around, even in the west. I haven't seen any about 5 to 10 years AGO from western artists, but nowadays, some of them are getting the hang of it.

    For the pic you posted, her face stretches a bit too much from bottom-left to top-right. The difference between the sizes of the two eyes is also too great...
    ...+1 exp

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    Eirik - My post you disagreed with......I was talking about anime in the overall "art" world sense. From what I have experienced and witness in college, different online art forums, the concept art industry, etc, anime has always been concidered a 'Less Than' form of art compared to tradition type detailed illustration, paintings, etc. In the comic world, it is also difficult to gain respect as an individual artist with anime influenced type style because your work may be considered too stylized.

    Although I agree that anime style art is gaining popularity in America, on a art stand point, anime styled art or anything that resembes it, isn't as respected as other type of art in the art feild, and that can make it difficult to get jobs. Thats all I was saying. I say this only from what I've experience and witnessed. Not that I'm complaining about it, just stating the facts that I thought would be helpful to know.

    -C

  19. #18
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    Originally posted by Chris J. Anderson!
    Eirik - My post you disagreed with......I was talking about anime in the overall "art" world sense. From what I have experienced and witness in college, different online art forums, the concept art industry, etc, anime has always been concidered a 'Less Than' form of art compared to tradition type detailed illustration, paintings, etc.
    -C
    I suppose it depends on the audience. Remember, I'm the writer, not the artist, but I specifically sought out an artist who could do this in anime / manga style Thus, that i a fairly good indicator as a 'consumer' I prefer this style over what is normally considered comic art in America.

    All I can say that's another topic...but as I pasted above, I want to eschew the American Industry version of comic art...its not my thing...and definitely in my eyes can not be considered 'superior' to manga art.
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

  20. #19
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    Eirik: What i have learned is that anyone can do manga, and I have seen good manga from non-japanese artists. It just comes right down to if you have the skills and the concept. Skill is difficult if you have not had the practice, but original concept is (IMO) a bit more difficult. And yes, I have seen the 'manga is less than art' attitude, (plus some of the dubbed anime does not help much). Personally I think it is sad. With me, I am a colorist who likes to take manga and color it in the more flashy american style coloring, which makes for an interesting and challenging combination. I have not run into much of the flack about it, though the cell shading and greyscale is much more popular.

    An example of my practice work -- still a work in progress.

    Too bad I do not get work for doing stuff like this. (Need a colorist?)
    Last edited by Wolfen; May 23rd, 2004 at 09:45 AM.
    Life has many colors, and some of them are dark. Draw what you see, not what you 'think' you see.

    | WolfenMedia | Wolfen's Deviantart Gallery | WIP Site | Wolfen's Sketchbook

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    Originally posted by Wolfen
    Eirik: An example of my practice work -- still a work in progress.

    Too bad I do not get work for doing stuff like this. (Need a colorist?)
    That is some impressive work. Right now though, Ron Chiu is doing our CGI stuff...so we do have a colorist. Still, I am impressed with that.
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

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    What I'll do is post two images we have gotten for our fan art contest. Here they are:

    Naomi in human form done by Dr. Cloud of www.cloudsgallery.com, posted with permission:
    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    Also posting with permission a very talented portrait of Brawyn by M.C. Barrett ( website here: http://www.moonkatz.org/mbarrettart ):
    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    Opinions?
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

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    As much as I hate the whole anime craze, I think your dedicated to your work. You don't have to be japanese to draw anime or manga. Its like saying you have to be dead to be a great artist. Its bullshit that only idiots believe. Which is good, because if someone says that, you know they don't have anything else useful to say. I also agree that it doesn't look like most anime I've seen. Its not a bad thing, its just different. Maybe its more American-ized?

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    I should probably preface this by saying I'm a huge manga/anime fan. I've been following anime in japan since the late 80s and probably spend more time with it than is probably healthy.

    Despite this I don't get along well with most other anime/manga fanatics, and the reasoning is simple; most of them are idiots.

    Anime, manga, and jpop all breed japanophiles. People who have become so infatuated with the culture that they think the japanese are flawless at everything they accomplish.

    I should probably note that I've sifted through tons of doujinshi and even "professional" manga that is poorly drawn and otherwise simply bad. Amateurs exist everywhere.

    In contrast, there are lots of people on these boards who think anime and manga style sucks and that it's not "real respectable art"

    My point is that ignorant, narrowminded people are everywhere and the internet gives them the courage to actually speak out. When you subject your work to potential critique you face the fact that odds are some idiot is going to leap out and give you his worthless two cents (like I'm doing right now.)

    My only advice to you is to ignore it. What's important is that you draw the way you want.

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    That's some good advice guys..thanks.

    Speaking of color, we did a test color of one of our previous pages..so I thought I'd post it up here for you all to have a look see...

    Page 13
    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    Comments / Critique?
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

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    Speaking of Non-japanese manga artist....have anyone seen KORO's work, now those are amazing. Eirik keep doing what your doing man, don't let them get you down. Grow with your art, and let that speak for you.
    "If you only heard one side of the story, then you must be deaf in the other ear." - Sok N. Wett

    Sok's Sketchbook Thread Last Updated November 25

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    Any idiot who says anyone of any particular race/ethnicity/political party/etc can or should do anything any better or exclusively over anyone else isn't worth your time. Look at Western style art. Should Sorayama stop painting realistic women because his style is not Japanese? I would safely say no.


    bat
    ----------------------------------------
    Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

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    hmmm. i myself isn't entirely good at manga....and who or what color doesn't matter. i still don't understand it perfectly and still lack at perspective and anotomy issues.... check out Koro's stuff if you want to see someone who is truly a manga artist nad his work.
    Last edited by MuffinMan; May 28th, 2004 at 09:26 AM.
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    Hiya all!

    Back from Anime Mid Atlantic, which was fun..and thought I'd post our latest page up here...

    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    Thanks for the comments, had some very intriquing conversations at AMA.

    Have fun now!
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

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    M.C.Barrett- post your stuff- please!
    Your concepts are brilliant.

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    Originally posted by chukw
    M.C.Barrett- post your stuff- please!
    Your concepts are brilliant.
    I'll let him know to look at this thread so he can.

    And here is page 27 for you all...
    Non-Japanese Can't Do Manga / Anime Style Art?

    Opinions?
    -Eirik Blackwolf
    Writer / Creator of:
    www.chisuji.com

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