Style for Sketchy Illustrations for Juggler Book

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    Style for Sketchy Illustrations for Juggler Book

    Hey Everyone,

    I'm very thankful for all the feedback for my paintings for the juggler book. Things are coming along nicely, though far more slowly than I'd like.

    (Here's the most recent finished one)

    Style for Sketchy Illustrations for Juggler Book

    The book is going to have eight full page paintings set against text on the opposing page, and then twelve smaller illustrations set in the middle of a white page with text underneath. I'm currently on painting five of eight, but I'd like to work on the other illustrations in parallel. Right now I need some feedback on the overall style of illustration. I'd like something simpler and sketchier than my paintings.

    Here's my first shot on the first figure. My thought was to do something that is essentially a greyscale drawing, but uses warm hues for the lighter values and cold ones for the darker ones. I'm not looking for critique on this particular drawing per se, yet, but rather on the general style of drawing in contrast to the style of the painting. Does this work? Would anyone care to link to examples of some alternative styles?

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    An improvement (methinks?) on the "penciling" technique. Blocking out values and then pencilifying the transitions. I think it's an improvment, but perhaps it is too much like the painting technique?

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    Perhaps something a little more posterized?

    All variations of the same basic look, I know. Right now I'm quite open to much bigger changes too.

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    How old is this boy/man supposed to be? His right foot is on backwards, his head is too big, and proportions are off in general.

    Where did it ever say that Humpty Dumpty was an egg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoopyWillow View Post
    How old is this boy/man supposed to be? His right foot is on backwards, his head is too big, and proportions are off in general.
    Hah - whoops! Not sure how I managed to put two left feet on the poor guy.

    I'm looking for feedback on the overall style though - I'll fix the character later.

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    If you're going to use hatching, it should integrate with the contours, rather than avoid them.


    Tristan Elwell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    If you're going to use hatching, it should integrate with the contours, rather than avoid them.
    Sounds interesting. Do you happen to know some good examples of this you could link to for me to look at?

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    When you say juggler book, do you mean a book about a juggler, or an illustrated book for jugglers? I assume the former.

    I like the posterized version better -- it's cleaner; the original doesn't seem 'tight' enough for the messiness to look like sketchiness. Maybe Elwell's suggestion would fix that; not sure.

    Also, speaking as a juggler, have you looked at pictures of real people juggling? It would never look like that unless you were trying to pull off a difficult trick. (Specifically, the 'claw'. If you want to see basically everything one can do with 3-ball juggling in under 3 minutes, see this video -- it might help get a sense of what's possible for illustration. The numbers are a juggling notation called 'siteswap' -- high means higher, faster throws, low means smaller, slower throws.) Your palms are almost always up while juggling. Your hands should be level, not one behind another, unless you're doing a trick or correcting a crappy throw. (This picture looks pretty natural.) Unfortunately, many photos of juggling are Photoshopped because it doesn't look that great in stills. I suggest finding some pictures or stills in videos and copying out some hand positions to get a feel for it.

    Last edited by Lulie; February 14th, 2012 at 10:56 AM. Reason: clarified something
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    Hello, Thegiffman.

    This is my first post on the forums, although I've been lurking for years. I'd just like to point out that most of your characters seem to be lacking eyelids. For me, this makes them look like a ventriloquist's dummy, because too much of the eye's iris is showing. The stylized proportions are probably a factor, too. I've made a quick paint-over to illustrate this. Also, I think this could be a good example of what Elwell's talking about: http://www.directoryofillustration.c...5680&IID=81438

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    There are too many things that keep distracting me when I look at the character: the lack of eyelids (as pointed out by Mellangmongot), the worm-like eyebrows, the too-big head and too-small neck, the awkward pose, the unidentifiable age, the long arms, short legs, and lumpy ears. Once you fix these, then you can move on to choosing how you are going to draw the character.

    Where did it ever say that Humpty Dumpty was an egg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoopyWillow View Post
    There are too many things that keep distracting me when I look at the character: the lack of eyelids (as pointed out by Mellangmongot), the worm-like eyebrows, the too-big head and too-small neck, the awkward pose, the unidentifiable age, the long arms, short legs, and lumpy ears. Once you fix these, then you can move on to choosing how you are going to draw the character.
    There was a similar discussion on this thread (incidentally, not my finest hour either). I don't doubt that there are some fundamental issues with my stylization that need sustained work, but before I can completely change the style I need to finish the book. So if I make any changes to the character, they need to be less than revolutionary.

    I do notice that people keep pressing me towards greater realism - the eyelid thing being a case in point. The resulting suggestions and paintovers are actually a good deal farther away from the cartoony look I actually want. I'd prefer something more like these character sketches of Michael Dashow's:

    EDIT: Attached at bottom of post.

    I really like the look of his Farewell Kiss:

    Style for Sketchy Illustrations for Juggler Book

    I also love this style by Daniel Lieske.

    My anatomy is terribly stiff and robotic by comparison, and perhaps that is why people mistakenly think I'm basically going for realism and just have huge heads and screwy proportions. Not sure.

    I'll give the character sketch another shot and see if it improves anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulie View Post
    It would never look like that unless you were trying to pull off a difficult trick.
    Thanks Lulie for the feedback - I think you're right about the posterized one. As far as the juggler, the inspiration for the storybook came from my son's love of this juggler at Southpoint Mall in North Carolina. My sister then wrote a story featuring my son as an itinerant juggler in the middle ages who rescues the king from bandits.

    Here is the reference photo for the hands:

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    Reworking the figure. Any better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegiffman View Post
    I do notice that people keep pressing me towards greater realism - the eyelid thing being a case in point. The resulting suggestions and paintovers are actually a good deal farther away from the cartoony look I actually want.
    I think people assume that you want greater realism because your characters are not cute. They do not have the proportions or simplicity for cartoony cuteness, they are rather realistic and lumpy and grotesque to begin with. We've been trying to deal with this from the very start but you don't seem to have the sense for cuteness or character design at this point. Everybody is equally lumpy and midget-like, even the little girls.

    You are not going to get the style you want until you really understand design and that's just not happening for you. You've been working on this for ages, you want to get this done, just finish the flipping thing. And then go study cartoon styles for a few years, really get into the meat of what cartoons are made of. Go study manga. You do not get out of the School of Manga without understanding cute and appealing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    I think people assume that you want greater realism because your characters are not cute.
    Oh dear. I'm trying to imagine how to break the news to them...

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    Here's my attempt at a redraw.

    I can definitely see what the others are saying and honestly, I'm not sure what's wrong with the proportions even though the errors are there.

    I think that maybe the head is too big (even though he's supposed to be a child I think...because he is loosely based on your own child right?) and the head should be the biggest part of the child's face. I think that in your drawings, his chin is the biggest part of the face, and his brow is far too prominent. Even more, the nose is just not appealing at all.

    Also, your character is walking funny (it's a hard pose I think...I can't really draw the motion from memory too well either). Either way, I think Vineris has the right idea....although I would have attempted to be a little nicer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    I can definitely see what the others are saying and honestly, I'm not sure what's wrong with the proportions even though the errors are there.

    I think that maybe the head is too big (even though he's supposed to be a child I think...because he is loosely based on your own child right?) and the head should be the biggest part of the child's face. I think that in your drawings, his chin is the biggest part of the face, and his brow is far too prominent. Even more, the nose is just not appealing at all.

    Also, your character is walking funny (it's a hard pose I think...I can't really draw the motion from memory too well either). Either way, I think Vineris has the right idea....although I would have attempted to be a little nicer.
    Yeah, I really think Vineris should walk a mile in a grotesque, lumpy, non-cute cartoon's shoes before he says stuff like that. Does he appreciate how much counseling costs these days?

    Seriously, I'm starting to see it too, which is a bad thing in the short term, because I want to finish the thing without having to start over. I'm not a professional artist, and don't actually have time to devote years to schooling, but I do think the project is worth doing and that my efforts are something a fair bit above utter crap. I don't think it entirely fair to say that I've proven to be incorrigible - it has more to do with wanting continuity for the sake of a book.

    Well, heck - I wanted to save the character redesign 'til I finished the book, before I started the next one. But the message I'm getting loud and clear is that that's just not going to fly around here. OK - let's re-imagine the juggler. Then I'll see whether I can retrofit some of the insights back into the old images without completely redoing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegiffman View Post
    Thanks Lulie for the feedback - I think you're right about the posterized one. As far as the juggler, the inspiration for the storybook came from my son's love of this juggler at Southpoint Mall in North Carolina. My sister then wrote a story featuring my son as an itinerant juggler in the middle ages who rescues the king from bandits.

    Here is the reference photo for the hands:
    That's a very nice ref. Note that particular photo is of an advanced trick (a '531') that requires throwing the balls up much higher than one would usually, so one of his arms is up much higher than it would be with juggling normally and the other is down lower.

    As for your updated picture: palms up! The only situation where your palms would ever be forward/down is if you're doing the 'claw' trick, which is hard.

    These little things matter because they contribute to the overall feel and movement of the piece. You don't need to go out and learn what a 531 is, but you do need to have in mind how the sense of movement will change when you deviate from the reference. It might end up having an unnatural feel if you put the hand back and palm out, and it might actually make it less clear what he's doing rather than more.

    PS: I actually really love the concept for the story. So much fun.

    Last edited by Lulie; February 15th, 2012 at 11:55 AM. Reason: formatting typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by bish0p2004 View Post
    Also, your character is walking funny (it's a hard pose I think...I can't really draw the motion from memory too well either). Either way, I think Vineris has the right idea....although I would have attempted to be a little nicer.
    Yeah... the story behind that is that I've been trying to find a nice way to say it since last July. There's a small booklet's worth of posts on the topic I ended up erasing because really, the project seems like a good idea and there's only so much that you can address when the person in question doesn't seem to have the time to put into the basics.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegiffman
    Seriously, I'm starting to see it too, which is a bad thing in the short term, because I want to finish the thing without having to start over. I'm not a professional artist, and don't actually have time to devote years to schooling, but I do think the project is worth doing and that my efforts are something a fair bit above utter crap. I don't think it entirely fair to say that I've proven to be incorrigible - it has more to do with wanting continuity for the sake of a book.
    And that's really the issue, because the design is the elephant in the room, the thing that people have been dancing around because you're not a pro and you want to get this thing done. But if you're going to say that you feel that people have been pushing you in the wrong direction... well, there's a reason for that. That's the direction you started in and people are trying to help you make the best of it.

    It's kinda like saying that you want to build houses in your spare time but you don't have the time to study architecture or lay proper foundations. Okay. Fine. But then you're going to have to live with the fact that you build some funny-looking houses that might not stay up. And it's hard on builders when you go to them for advice with that caveat. Especially when you say that you feel your advisors are leading you astray and you are aspiring to do work like that of a company that has been in business for a hundred years and is known for the solidity of their work.

    I'm going to give you some advice from my years of working on a graphic novel (in my spare time, as a hobbyist). Move forward. There is nothing worse than endlessly polishing a project. Get it done, give it to your son, he will love it, and then you can get on with improving without being hampered by anxiety about consistency and deadlines. It is the nature of projects to not be perfect, your next project will be better assuming that you spend time on study and experimentation in between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegiffman
    Yeah, I really think Vineris should walk a mile in a grotesque, lumpy, non-cute cartoon's shoes before he says stuff like that. Does he appreciate how much counseling costs these days?
    Is it more than $50 an hour? Because that's what I charge for outrageous flattery. Next time consider investing in Vineris's finely-crafted polite lies, the lie you can always trust. It may be a bargain!

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    Sone One already adressed these issues 6 months ago

    Style for Sketchy Illustrations for Juggler Book

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    Sone One already adressed these issues 6 months ago
    Perhaps - though not really in a way I could hear. The context was mostly pushes toward greater realism. He was pushing me towards Rockwell (who I admire), but that isn't quite what I'm going for. In the context of "not cute enough" in terms of cartoons, I can now see the point. Not quite sure what to do about it at this stage - I do indeed want to "finish the flippin' thing", but its hard to stay motivated when you're eyes are open to the flaws. I need to find some iterative way to improve that isn't unrecognizable to the current pieces, but improves enough that I can draw in good conscience.

    Could anyone recommend some good artists to study? I really like the painting I referenced above, but not necessarily all his paintings.

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    OK, I'm playing around with the profile again - this guy is more my son's age and not the older age of the kid in the book, but at least he's cuter, right?

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    A little older, though not quite enough.

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    Again I think that you're falling to the "middle aged man" look. Because honestly if I didn't know this character is supposed to be... well I'm not sure how old, but still under 20 I'd guess, based on that head image I'd easily see him being at least 25 or older, just with a pretty thin neck. But then I look at the body image at the top and he's about four heads tall, which would mean he has the proportions of a five year old.
    It's the large/long jaw and that dramatic lighting that emphasizes the kid's mouth wrinkles that works against this here.
    Can I ask, have you actually taken the time of drawing/studying real kids of the specific age you're trying to portray here?

    This thing doesn't address this exact problem, but might be helpful: http://toerning.deviantart.com/art/O...dren-191687485

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    Last edited by TinyBird; February 20th, 2012 at 09:27 AM.
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    Heh - fair enough on the shading. Limiting myself to three tones per surface is going to mean resisting the desire to define a lot of shapes.

    I did do some age studies - with Loomis and some photos, though when I start completely over on the next project I aim to do a heck of a lot more of all of that. Right now though, I thought he looked like a pretty convincing 13-14. You really think he looks over 20?

    I looked at that link and it did have some interesting things to say. Here's the face rounded out a bit more. Not sure if it pushes it to under 10. The article suggests it has more to do with the incongruity of the face with the body type. Perhaps I should try to do my own Loomis lineup.

    But the key question is "is the poor thing getting cute yet"?

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    Tristan Elwell
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    I think removing the pointy chin helps, but I still see him as pretty old. I did a quick reconstruction using your own drawings so things don't get bogged down by style to show how I'd see different ages with your characters. To get the appearance of different ages you need to change the proportions, not just soften features.

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    these older versions looked downright terrifying, the newer ones are a big improvement, good work

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    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; February 20th, 2012 at 04:40 PM.
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    Thanks, VK! I know you've been frustrated about this for a while - glad you've finally gotten through to me.

    Vineris, I think with proper plastic surgery, my cartoons may forget the trauma, and even come to thank their grumpy uncle Vinny someday... Seriously, great paint-over - I'm loving it.

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