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  1. #14
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    Connie...I was talking about flashback's programming difference. There isn't any difference in process when it comes to the concept art part of things. Oh, maybe you were as well. Well of course the output, models, assets, etc. are radically different, as dpaint pointed out. But I don't see how the programming would be any different? Games, movies, animated productions all rely on custom tools and implementation pipelines, so in effect they all have that in common...they are all custom. Not sure what languages are in heavy use now in film and animation but most games use C++, maybe movies do as well, IDK.

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  3. #15
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    Well, not completely different, but...

    Games might be coded any programming language(s) in existence, hell even programmed into a graphic calculator. But, the common ones are:

    Assembly language (extremely useful extremely hard to learn)
    Java, C, C++, languages are all-purpose (very useful, and easy to learn)
    Visual Basic, Basic, Python, Java are mainly used for scripting UIs and such (extremely easy to learn and also useful.

    Games engine are usually written by the languages above but it's not a requirement; however, the most important ability you need to have as a programmer is the ability to as a programmer. I know circular, but it's the ability to translate a math or logic problem into a steps to solve the problem AKA Algorithm.

    In Connie example, a program that X person uses, but X person doesn't need to know all of the implementations the program just the parts they need to use. A better example: A person starts a car, all they have to do is put key in starter, and turn the key, however, the person really doesn't need to know about the starter motor or the carburetors or the spark plug. This is called information hiding or data abstraction. Another example would be: Your working in a movie as a artist making characters, backgrounds and so on, and I am the programmer that wrote the implementation for water to look more realistic. do you really need to know about how I coded the water, and visa-verse.


    Sometimes games might have the same implementations as film now. But a video game does not need to have a regular visual stimuli. Games can be visual abstractions, or a text-based game, a board game. But, All games are supposed to be coded properly.
    Visuals in a film is sort of a requirement you need visuals in a movie to tell a story.

    By visual abstractions, I mean
    D@........> This will mean something in a video-game. (Nethack)

    or

    Text description:
    West of House
    You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
    There is a small mailbox here.
    >|

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  4. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Another example would be: Your working in a movie as a artist making characters, backgrounds and so on, and I am the programmer that wrote the implementation for water to look more realistic. do you really need to know about how I coded the water, and visa-verse.
    Actually yes...if I am the art director or at least the AD responsible for environments/world building for example. I've had this exact experience and worked hand in hand with the guy writing the water/ocean/wave systems and tools. I had to understand his code well enough to tell him how I wanted it tweaked, what ranges, what particular wave physics and how we could implement a tool for the rest of the team to use. We used to do this all the time...each project was unique or heavily tweaked from previous.

    Anyway, my basic point is that it is pretty much the same thing as the OP's question on concept process...programming for movies and programming for games would be essentially the same thing. Sure assets are different, functionality and pipeline would be very different, but you're still basically developing code to do x, y and z on a project. Does that make sense?

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  5. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Connie...I was talking about flashback's programming difference.
    Yes, me too, but looking back at my post, I started with the progression of differences but didn't really dig into the programming side much....
    Having come from engineering background, and just learning art stuff, I actually know less about artistic side then the programming and implementation side of things.

    While I can't program in any specific language (other then couple very old ones), I can pseudo code enough to manage implementation of these things, and know which method to apply to which project. For engineering and architectural viz, we used both, game engines, and animated stuff.

    For example, most of the 3D animation uses a lot less, and sometimes no interactive environment physics at all, without which a 3D based game would not work.

    In game engine based games a huge amount of work happens via the graphics card, in ray trace or similar program based rendering, the system processor does most of the work. They each require a somewhat different coding (language) and program structure approach. Also, Real-time rendering requires a different programming (often speedy and somewhat abbreviated or simulated effects algorithms... like fake caustics instead of full very precise ray traced caustics.)

    On the super high end, like in big budget feature films, or high llama game studios, both use a lot of custom written plugins and applets and even full applications. More run of the mill studios, not producing cutting edge technology work will rely on a lot of commercially available tools.

    But, like Flashback said, most artists don't meed to worry about that in depth, other then to be aware of the resources available for each project.

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  6. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Yes, me too, but looking back at my post, I started with the progression of differences but didn't really dig into the programming side much....
    Having come from engineering background, and just learning art stuff, I actually know less about artistic side then the programming and implementation side of things.

    While I can't program in any specific language (other then couple very old ones), I can pseudo code enough to manage implementation of these things, and know which method to apply to which project. For engineering and architectural viz, we used both, game engines, and animated stuff.

    For example, most of the 3D animation uses a lot less, and sometimes no interactive environment physics at all, without which a 3D based game would not work.

    In game engine based games a huge amount of work happens via the graphics card, in ray trace or similar program based rendering, the system processor does most of the work. They each require a somewhat different coding (language) and program structure approach. Also, Real-time rendering requires a different programming (often speedy and somewhat abbreviated or simulated effects algorithms... like fake caustics instead of full very precise ray traced caustics.)

    On the super high end, like in big budget feature films, or high llama game studios, both use a lot of custom written plugins and applets and even full applications. More run of the mill studios, not producing cutting edge technology work will rely on a lot of commercially available tools..
    Connie, you're missing my point, but no big deal. It's all some sort of code or programming developed to do whatever the particular project requires. I doubt anyone really cares much though. The differences you're talking about are analogous to the differences that exist in concept art as well, ie: graphite, ink, digital, thumbnails, marker, matte painting, storyboards, etc. But there is no real difference in what you're actaully doing - writing code. The results or application of what you're doing differ of course, but those differences exist from project to project anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    But, like Flashback said, most artists don't meed to worry about that in depth, other then to be aware of the resources available for each project.
    ADs and Leads sure do. Which means most production and junior artists should take an interest as well, if they want to advance anyway. Been making games 20+ years...trust me, an artist wouldn't survive on my team that didn't want to worry about the technical implementation of their art.

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  7. #19
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    Scripting is handy. Whether you're using UDK or Maya.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by manlybrian View Post
    I think I remember Feng Zhu saying that concept art for movies should generally be more realistic, since that's how the final product will be (hence the use of matte paintings), whereas with games it can have a more painted look? Maybe somebody can confirm or deny that one.
    Do you have a link for where this was said? I'd like to hear the context, mostly because it seems like such an odd thing to say about concept art/vis dev. Are you sure he wasn't talking about designed vs. realistic, rather than painting technique? (I'd also like to point out either way that reasoning doesn't follow for animated movies, which everyone seems to forget about.

    to the OP: might I suggest picking up an "Art Of" book?

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  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Connie, you're missing my point, but no big deal. It's all some sort of code or programming developed to do whatever the particular project requires. I doubt anyone really cares much though. The differences you're talking about are analogous to the differences that exist in concept art as well, ie: graphite, ink, digital, thumbnails, marker, matte painting, storyboards, etc. But there is no real difference in what you're actaully doing - writing code. The results or application of what you're doing differ of course, but those differences exist from project to project anyway.
    The point I was trying to make, Programming is a much broader field, and differences in programming, or code writing are much broader then in storyboarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    an artist wouldn't survive on my team that didn't want to worry about the technical implementation of their art.
    I think we were trying to say the same thing, but in somewhat different words. I was trying to make a point that an artist doesn't have to worry about programming difference to the same level a programmer does.

    Of course artist needs to worry about the technical parameters of the media the project is meant for. If they don't, they may end up trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    You called it implementation, I called it resources available for the project... It's a bit like six in one, half a dozen in the other. We're both talking about the need for the artist to know something about the target application or target media, so they can tailor their work to fit.

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  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    The point I was trying to make, Programming is a much broader field, and differences in programming, or code writing are much broader then in storyboarding.
    Hey, don't drag storyboarding into this unless you're familiar with it.

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  12. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    Hey, don't drag storyboarding into this unless you're familiar with it.
    Sorry, I meant designing, or whatever most people already agreed on that it's not hugely different between games and movies. The original thread topic. I thought the storyboards were part if the original topic, and Jeff himself said that 'it's not very different'

    I'm not sure why you're jumping on me for repeating what's already been said in this thread by 'the experts'?

    Last edited by Conniekat8; February 13th, 2012 at 03:41 AM.
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  13. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    The point I was trying to make, Programming is a much broader field, and differences in programming, or code writing are much broader then in storyboarding.



    I think we were trying to say the same thing, but in somewhat different words. I was trying to make a point that an artist doesn't have to worry about programming difference to the same level a programmer does.

    Of course artist needs to worry about the technical parameters of the media the project is meant for. If they don't, they may end up trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    You called it implementation, I called it resources available for the project... It's a bit like six in one, half a dozen in the other. We're both talking about the need for the artist to know something about the target application or target media, so they can tailor their work to fit.
    Don't take this wrong but I'm always amazed at how you like to argue the finer points and terms for something you don't really do with veteran professionals. You're getting quite a bit further off track. Programming is actually significantly more narrow than concept art...why you only mentioned storyboarding I'm not sure.

    It goes much deeper than simply knowing the technical parameters of the output media. Implementation, pipeline and proprietary tool use/development is a major part of interactive/film/animation design...a whole lot more than just knowing technical parameters.

    As I've said, ADs and Leads have to be extremely well versed technically to bring the art production, tools and programming together.

    I call it implementation because that is what it is called in the industry...the implementation of the art, via tools into the game engine or film/animation pipeline. Resources available for the project? Not sure what you mean there...that could be anything from mo-cap, maquettes, models, photo textures, painted textures, etc. Resources could be all kinds of things, do you mean assets? As in things that go into the game?

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  14. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Don't take this wrong but I'm always amazed at how you like to argue the finer points and terms for something you don't really do with veteran professionals.
    What is it that I don't exactly do?
    And I'd prefer that you use the real version, rather then DP's assumptions, that he's been blathering about around the forum here, that I haven't tried disputing because I have no desire to get into nasty arguments with his sour-pusness.

    You've done the art direction...
    I've done Data Visualization (architectural and engineering viz) for many years. Very similar to what you've done, technologically, except, more technical and numerical, less artistic. I never shipped a game title, you never designed a self guided construction site walk through that functions like a game, and works via game engine, like any game would. Big deal, I haven't shipped a game, you didn't adapt game technology for non-game applications.

    I never made a film or television animation targeting broad general audiences, but I've done dozens and dozens of Arch Viz animations, for at least 12 years now, for serious use in that industry.

    I never did classical storyboarding for film, TV or gaming, but we sure as hell planned the animated presentations very carefully, so they convey what they are meant to convey, and sell the technical panels or sell the product. I'm sorry, mr. seasoned professional art directoir and plen air painter, we used a different terminology.

    While I wasn't an 'art director' in the classical sense, for at least last 5 years I was a director of a data viz department that did all this.

    You're talking about programming, and how much programming did you do yourself? Considering neither of us are professional programmers, I bet you I've done more. I also hired people to write programs and applets for what we did, that too requires a fairly solid knowledge. Actually, I don;t believe it's the art director that hires programmers in film or gaming industry, usually there's an engineering side that handles this. I had to handle both on my own, engineering side *and* the presentation side. Technical and art director side.

    What amazes me is that you and couple other people continuously assume I know nothing, just because I can't draw and paint in traditional media, or aren't a self-taught art director like you or DP. Hell, you never so much as bothered to try and learn what I do (or have done), you just go around judging that I don't know anything... based on what?

    Because I haven't done it in a run of the mill typical market that you did it in, and I combined artist and engineering side together, and found a good niche.

    While I'm not a seasoned professional in YOUR exact filed, I am a seasoned professional (25 years) in a fairly closely related field, who is learning to draw and paint and to make a somewhat lateral switch.

    So, much like you are telling me not to talk about subject you are ASSuming, I'm not familiar with, I would prefer that you don't spread misconceptions about subjects you are not familiar with - ie. my own experience, knowledge or professional background.

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  15. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Not sure what you mean there...that could be anything from mo-cap, maquettes, models, photo textures, painted textures, etc. Resources could be all kinds of things, do you mean assets? As in things that go into the game?
    ok, I went and looked up some more terminology in your business - the way I look at things, and what I'm used to doing - in my field it's called project management - is called film or game producer, so that's the point of view I'm used to.

    Before that, I wasn't doing AD work, I was doing technical director work. Someone else would be the AD.

    Before that I was doing technical design and analysis, someone else was working out the artistic design.

    Before that, many years ago straight out of school, I was doing technical grunt work, and straight out of school artists were doing the artistic grunt work, all of us working our way up the ladder.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    It goes much deeper than simply knowing the technical parameters of the output media. Implementation, pipeline and proprietary tool use/development is a major part of interactive/film/animation design...a whole lot more than just knowing technical parameters.
    I think it's you who is getting hung up on terms in this case, insisting we are talking about different things because your industry branch and mine use different terminology. I'm trying to learn how this branch of it works, and it's going to take me some time to learn the specific terminology. The least you could do is open your mind a bit and realize that there are valid things in existence beyond what you've seen and know. Even when it comes to using very similar tools.

    I'm actually dismayed how narrow-minded certain 'artists' can be, while at the same time going on about open mindedness and creativity. In some cases worse then many engineers I've seen.

    Last edited by Conniekat8; February 13th, 2012 at 06:58 AM.
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