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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Another example would be: Your working in a movie as a artist making characters, backgrounds and so on, and I am the programmer that wrote the implementation for water to look more realistic. do you really need to know about how I coded the water, and visa-verse.
    Actually yes...if I am the art director or at least the AD responsible for environments/world building for example. I've had this exact experience and worked hand in hand with the guy writing the water/ocean/wave systems and tools. I had to understand his code well enough to tell him how I wanted it tweaked, what ranges, what particular wave physics and how we could implement a tool for the rest of the team to use. We used to do this all the time...each project was unique or heavily tweaked from previous.

    Anyway, my basic point is that it is pretty much the same thing as the OP's question on concept process...programming for movies and programming for games would be essentially the same thing. Sure assets are different, functionality and pipeline would be very different, but you're still basically developing code to do x, y and z on a project. Does that make sense?
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Connie...I was talking about flashback's programming difference.
    Yes, me too, but looking back at my post, I started with the progression of differences but didn't really dig into the programming side much....
    Having come from engineering background, and just learning art stuff, I actually know less about artistic side then the programming and implementation side of things.

    While I can't program in any specific language (other then couple very old ones), I can pseudo code enough to manage implementation of these things, and know which method to apply to which project. For engineering and architectural viz, we used both, game engines, and animated stuff.

    For example, most of the 3D animation uses a lot less, and sometimes no interactive environment physics at all, without which a 3D based game would not work.

    In game engine based games a huge amount of work happens via the graphics card, in ray trace or similar program based rendering, the system processor does most of the work. They each require a somewhat different coding (language) and program structure approach. Also, Real-time rendering requires a different programming (often speedy and somewhat abbreviated or simulated effects algorithms... like fake caustics instead of full very precise ray traced caustics.)

    On the super high end, like in big budget feature films, or high llama game studios, both use a lot of custom written plugins and applets and even full applications. More run of the mill studios, not producing cutting edge technology work will rely on a lot of commercially available tools.

    But, like Flashback said, most artists don't meed to worry about that in depth, other then to be aware of the resources available for each project.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Yes, me too, but looking back at my post, I started with the progression of differences but didn't really dig into the programming side much....
    Having come from engineering background, and just learning art stuff, I actually know less about artistic side then the programming and implementation side of things.

    While I can't program in any specific language (other then couple very old ones), I can pseudo code enough to manage implementation of these things, and know which method to apply to which project. For engineering and architectural viz, we used both, game engines, and animated stuff.

    For example, most of the 3D animation uses a lot less, and sometimes no interactive environment physics at all, without which a 3D based game would not work.

    In game engine based games a huge amount of work happens via the graphics card, in ray trace or similar program based rendering, the system processor does most of the work. They each require a somewhat different coding (language) and program structure approach. Also, Real-time rendering requires a different programming (often speedy and somewhat abbreviated or simulated effects algorithms... like fake caustics instead of full very precise ray traced caustics.)

    On the super high end, like in big budget feature films, or high llama game studios, both use a lot of custom written plugins and applets and even full applications. More run of the mill studios, not producing cutting edge technology work will rely on a lot of commercially available tools..
    Connie, you're missing my point, but no big deal. It's all some sort of code or programming developed to do whatever the particular project requires. I doubt anyone really cares much though. The differences you're talking about are analogous to the differences that exist in concept art as well, ie: graphite, ink, digital, thumbnails, marker, matte painting, storyboards, etc. But there is no real difference in what you're actaully doing - writing code. The results or application of what you're doing differ of course, but those differences exist from project to project anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    But, like Flashback said, most artists don't meed to worry about that in depth, other then to be aware of the resources available for each project.
    ADs and Leads sure do. Which means most production and junior artists should take an interest as well, if they want to advance anyway. Been making games 20+ years...trust me, an artist wouldn't survive on my team that didn't want to worry about the technical implementation of their art.
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    Scripting is handy. Whether you're using UDK or Maya.
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    Quote Originally Posted by manlybrian View Post
    I think I remember Feng Zhu saying that concept art for movies should generally be more realistic, since that's how the final product will be (hence the use of matte paintings), whereas with games it can have a more painted look? Maybe somebody can confirm or deny that one.
    Do you have a link for where this was said? I'd like to hear the context, mostly because it seems like such an odd thing to say about concept art/vis dev. Are you sure he wasn't talking about designed vs. realistic, rather than painting technique? (I'd also like to point out either way that reasoning doesn't follow for animated movies, which everyone seems to forget about.

    to the OP: might I suggest picking up an "Art Of" book?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Connie, you're missing my point, but no big deal. It's all some sort of code or programming developed to do whatever the particular project requires. I doubt anyone really cares much though. The differences you're talking about are analogous to the differences that exist in concept art as well, ie: graphite, ink, digital, thumbnails, marker, matte painting, storyboards, etc. But there is no real difference in what you're actaully doing - writing code. The results or application of what you're doing differ of course, but those differences exist from project to project anyway.
    The point I was trying to make, Programming is a much broader field, and differences in programming, or code writing are much broader then in storyboarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    an artist wouldn't survive on my team that didn't want to worry about the technical implementation of their art.
    I think we were trying to say the same thing, but in somewhat different words. I was trying to make a point that an artist doesn't have to worry about programming difference to the same level a programmer does.

    Of course artist needs to worry about the technical parameters of the media the project is meant for. If they don't, they may end up trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    You called it implementation, I called it resources available for the project... It's a bit like six in one, half a dozen in the other. We're both talking about the need for the artist to know something about the target application or target media, so they can tailor their work to fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    The point I was trying to make, Programming is a much broader field, and differences in programming, or code writing are much broader then in storyboarding.
    Hey, don't drag storyboarding into this unless you're familiar with it.

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  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    Hey, don't drag storyboarding into this unless you're familiar with it.
    Sorry, I meant designing, or whatever most people already agreed on that it's not hugely different between games and movies. The original thread topic. I thought the storyboards were part if the original topic, and Jeff himself said that 'it's not very different'

    I'm not sure why you're jumping on me for repeating what's already been said in this thread by 'the experts'?
    Last edited by Conniekat8; February 13th, 2012 at 04:41 AM.

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    The point I was trying to make, Programming is a much broader field, and differences in programming, or code writing are much broader then in storyboarding.



    I think we were trying to say the same thing, but in somewhat different words. I was trying to make a point that an artist doesn't have to worry about programming difference to the same level a programmer does.

    Of course artist needs to worry about the technical parameters of the media the project is meant for. If they don't, they may end up trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

    You called it implementation, I called it resources available for the project... It's a bit like six in one, half a dozen in the other. We're both talking about the need for the artist to know something about the target application or target media, so they can tailor their work to fit.
    Don't take this wrong but I'm always amazed at how you like to argue the finer points and terms for something you don't really do with veteran professionals. You're getting quite a bit further off track. Programming is actually significantly more narrow than concept art...why you only mentioned storyboarding I'm not sure.

    It goes much deeper than simply knowing the technical parameters of the output media. Implementation, pipeline and proprietary tool use/development is a major part of interactive/film/animation design...a whole lot more than just knowing technical parameters.

    As I've said, ADs and Leads have to be extremely well versed technically to bring the art production, tools and programming together.

    I call it implementation because that is what it is called in the industry...the implementation of the art, via tools into the game engine or film/animation pipeline. Resources available for the project? Not sure what you mean there...that could be anything from mo-cap, maquettes, models, photo textures, painted textures, etc. Resources could be all kinds of things, do you mean assets? As in things that go into the game?
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  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Don't take this wrong but I'm always amazed at how you like to argue the finer points and terms for something you don't really do with veteran professionals.
    What is it that I don't exactly do?
    And I'd prefer that you use the real version, rather then DP's assumptions, that he's been blathering about around the forum here, that I haven't tried disputing because I have no desire to get into nasty arguments with his sour-pusness.

    You've done the art direction...
    I've done Data Visualization (architectural and engineering viz) for many years. Very similar to what you've done, technologically, except, more technical and numerical, less artistic. I never shipped a game title, you never designed a self guided construction site walk through that functions like a game, and works via game engine, like any game would. Big deal, I haven't shipped a game, you didn't adapt game technology for non-game applications.

    I never made a film or television animation targeting broad general audiences, but I've done dozens and dozens of Arch Viz animations, for at least 12 years now, for serious use in that industry.

    I never did classical storyboarding for film, TV or gaming, but we sure as hell planned the animated presentations very carefully, so they convey what they are meant to convey, and sell the technical panels or sell the product. I'm sorry, mr. seasoned professional art directoir and plen air painter, we used a different terminology.

    While I wasn't an 'art director' in the classical sense, for at least last 5 years I was a director of a data viz department that did all this.

    You're talking about programming, and how much programming did you do yourself? Considering neither of us are professional programmers, I bet you I've done more. I also hired people to write programs and applets for what we did, that too requires a fairly solid knowledge. Actually, I don;t believe it's the art director that hires programmers in film or gaming industry, usually there's an engineering side that handles this. I had to handle both on my own, engineering side *and* the presentation side. Technical and art director side.

    What amazes me is that you and couple other people continuously assume I know nothing, just because I can't draw and paint in traditional media, or aren't a self-taught art director like you or DP. Hell, you never so much as bothered to try and learn what I do (or have done), you just go around judging that I don't know anything... based on what?

    Because I haven't done it in a run of the mill typical market that you did it in, and I combined artist and engineering side together, and found a good niche.

    While I'm not a seasoned professional in YOUR exact filed, I am a seasoned professional (25 years) in a fairly closely related field, who is learning to draw and paint and to make a somewhat lateral switch.

    So, much like you are telling me not to talk about subject you are ASSuming, I'm not familiar with, I would prefer that you don't spread misconceptions about subjects you are not familiar with - ie. my own experience, knowledge or professional background.

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Not sure what you mean there...that could be anything from mo-cap, maquettes, models, photo textures, painted textures, etc. Resources could be all kinds of things, do you mean assets? As in things that go into the game?
    ok, I went and looked up some more terminology in your business - the way I look at things, and what I'm used to doing - in my field it's called project management - is called film or game producer, so that's the point of view I'm used to.

    Before that, I wasn't doing AD work, I was doing technical director work. Someone else would be the AD.

    Before that I was doing technical design and analysis, someone else was working out the artistic design.

    Before that, many years ago straight out of school, I was doing technical grunt work, and straight out of school artists were doing the artistic grunt work, all of us working our way up the ladder.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    It goes much deeper than simply knowing the technical parameters of the output media. Implementation, pipeline and proprietary tool use/development is a major part of interactive/film/animation design...a whole lot more than just knowing technical parameters.
    I think it's you who is getting hung up on terms in this case, insisting we are talking about different things because your industry branch and mine use different terminology. I'm trying to learn how this branch of it works, and it's going to take me some time to learn the specific terminology. The least you could do is open your mind a bit and realize that there are valid things in existence beyond what you've seen and know. Even when it comes to using very similar tools.

    I'm actually dismayed how narrow-minded certain 'artists' can be, while at the same time going on about open mindedness and creativity. In some cases worse then many engineers I've seen.
    Last edited by Conniekat8; February 13th, 2012 at 07:58 AM.

  14. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Sorry, I meant designing, or whatever most people already agreed on that it's not hugely different between games and movies. The original thread topic. I thought the storyboards were part if the original topic, and Jeff himself said that 'it's not very different'

    I'm not sure why you're jumping on me for repeating what's already been said in this thread by 'the experts'?
    Jeff only said that the same differences you're talking about exist in concept art as well, between matte painting, storyboard art, character design, etc. (I'm certainly proof of that - I storyboard for tv animation professionally, but lack the skills to do a narrative painting or design.)

    He never said anything specific about storyboarding itself. You did. Storyboarding is actually pretty broad, and being a board artist in one field does not mean competence in another field. Even within a field (i.e., TV animation) there are some pretty wild differences. I know the topic was originally games and film, but you didn't specify and I always forget that people around this forum seem to pretty much ignore tv and feature animation.

    Anyway, if you'd like to discuss the differences, I'm game.


    Alice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    Jeff only said that the same differences you're talking about exist in concept art as well, between matte painting, storyboard art, character design, etc. (I'm certainly proof of that - I storyboard for tv animation professionally, but lack the skills to do a narrative painting or design.)

    He never said anything specific about storyboarding itself. You did. Storyboarding is actually pretty broad, and being a board artist in one field does not mean competence in another field. Even within a field (i.e., TV animation) there are some pretty wild differences. I know the topic was originally games and film, but you didn't specify and I always forget that people around this forum seem to pretty much ignore tv and feature animation.

    Anyway, if you'd like to discuss the differences, I'm game.


    Alice.
    I don't know the finer points of story boarding in this industry, I'm yet to get to that level of learning the specifics in game or animation or film making (although, I'm not likely to get into film making.)

    Re-reading the thread, It's beat-boarding that the OP mentioned, not story boarding. Going from memory when I was posting, I would have sworn there was mention of story boarding in the OP, but there wasn't.

    Stuff I was doing for work are technical presentations, engineering architectural, product viz... compared to movies or games, there isn't much you need to do in a way of developing a story, or doing creative stuff.... so compared to what people here do, my knowledge is a mixed bag, some things I know well, some things I'm completely new to... as can be the case with anyone making a lateral switch to a related or a somewhat related field. Same would happen if anyone from here was starting to switch into what I was doing.

    Plus, I was starting to get irritated with the 'you don't know what you're talking about' commentary, and getting inattentive to details.

    Let me ask you a question (digressing from the OP), since I mentioned story boarding... do game designers and filmmakers use drastically different storyboards? If they are different, and someone needed to retrain themselves to go from one to the other, how much effort would they need to put in?

    For example, is it something they need to start planing for while in school, or could they make a mid-career switch with a few months of extra efforts, and get to a reasonable level of competency?

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    @Jeff: Okay, let's look at it this way... something simple. Let's say that you are looking at a brain and neurons firing on the movie screen. The viewer would zoom in on the brain and travel along the neuron until he hit a soma (this is the type of imaging that I program for).

    If I were doing this for a movie (say for a trade show), I would model the one dendrite that the user travels on, with a high polygon count), and lay in a background image for the rest of the surface. The background image would probably be an image stack that contains a series of images at various angles. So the programming would be to take a slice of the image stack at various angles as the user traveled along the neuron. My primary focus would be the vector math and the memory management of the image slices.

    Now, if I was doing this as a game, I would take a totally different approach. I would need to create the neuron models for the different paths that take the viewer to the soma. So, rather than using the image stack, I would need to load more models and handle the lighting for the various models. This would entail using more of graphics card rendering memory. My primary focus would be to render the area close to the viewer in high detail with a low detail rendering of faraway objects. Plus, I would need to figure out schemes for caching the current memory if the user tries to jump around, go forward, etc. So, the problem is harder due to the fact that I have no clue what the user is planning to do.

    So, yes, you would use the same algorithms, etc (some of the algorithms, you would need to make assumptions, rather than allow the full input), but the process on how you put the pieces together is different.

    Is this what you were thinking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    ok, I went and looked up some more terminology in your business - the way I look at things, and what I'm used to doing - in my field it's called project management...

    And usually you sit in meetings all day not doing anything useful.

    Conniekat, what sort of engineering?

    "an implementation is a realization of a technical specification or algorithm as a program, software component, or other computer system through programming and deployment"

    One could see programming implementations as making a tiny, little program to a large program with several millions lines of code on a Operating system such as Windows 7 OS, a database like Facebook (Farmville).

    I guess terminology is a problem.

    Doug Hoppes, all games, now, try to be movies. So, most try to keep polygons count up. I, personally, think this is a mistake by developers.
    The main problem is adoption rates, game engine, graphic engine limitation, or hardware (Xbox, PS3), however, PC tend to be more hardware upgrade friendly.
    Last edited by Flashback; February 13th, 2012 at 09:42 AM.
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