What's the difference between designing for movies vs designing for games? - Page 2
 
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  1. #31
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    @Flashback: Yeah, that's been that way for a long time (games trying to be movies). The gamer has wanted more and more levels of realism. Yet, computers (even dedicated ones like PS3, etc) still have to catch up to the desire. Glad that I don't do that that type of work anymore. I'm pretty happy just doing my scientific programming (Granted, we still have a lot of the same issues... one of the images that I work with is an image stack that is 800,000 x 900,000 pixel x 200 image planes... 1.5 terabyte uncompressed... Trying to 1) build that image and 2) trying to display that image reasonably on a 32-bit machine sucks... then trying to add a high-res detail neuron structure inside of it... lots and lots of coding tricks.)

    The issue with the polygon count being so high is the memory usage and the processing power for the algorithms to render the scene correctly. In a lot of cases, you can separate the model into various polygon groups and change their level of detail before you render them, but that computation takes some processing power also...and some fairly nasty math.

    Like every other technical field, there is a lot of hidden issues that are tough to resolve and, most people don't encounter them, but when they do ... and they solve them, it's a great feeling.

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  4. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    What is it that I don't exactly do?
    And I'd prefer that you use the real version, rather then DP's assumptions, that he's been blathering about around the forum here, that I haven't tried disputing because I have no desire to get into nasty arguments with his sour-pusness.
    You are so full of it. You haven't disputed anything because you haven't done anything in the entertainment industry professionally. Doing flythroughs has nothing to do with game dev, or movies.
    I don't have assumptions, I have real world experience, something you lack. I have worked in games working to develope movie properties for Spielberg, Disney, LucasArts and Paramount.
    I'd tell you to stick to what you know but then you'd have to leave this site and I would be denied my daily laugh from your posts. (The one of your teachers drawing is classic clueless Connie always commenting on things she knows nothing about.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hoppes View Post
    @Flashback: Yeah, that's been that way for a long time (games trying to be movies). The gamer has wanted more and more levels of realism.
    In all honesty, Gamers don't care that much about how well coded a game is. As along as marketing does their job, The game will sell just like a movie.
    The only coding that seems to matter more is graphics, In my view, that makes the game less special, I mean I could easily watch a "let's play" or "Longplay" of that game. I know there are exceptions, Minecraft being one.

    For me, making a procedural done game tend to be more acceptable, in a sense. It plays on the strength of the computer rather the weakness. It gives the player a wildcard, hopefully, rather then a script event.

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  6. #34
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    Dude, dpaint you're scaring the young 'uns.

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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    What is it that I don't exactly do?

    You've done the art direction...
    I've done Data Visualization (architectural and engineering viz) for many years. Very similar to what you've done, technologically, except, more technical and numerical, less artistic. I never shipped a game title, you never designed a self guided construction site walk through that functions like a game, and works via game engine, like any game would. Big deal, I haven't shipped a game, you didn't adapt game technology for non-game applications.
    Haven't read through all this yet...but basically this is my issue Connie. You think doing architectural viz walk throughs is similar to game design and coding. They aren't.

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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hoppes View Post
    So, yes, you would use the same algorithms, etc (some of the algorithms, you would need to make assumptions, rather than allow the full input), but the process on how you put the pieces together is different.

    Is this what you were thinking about?
    Yes, exactly. Coding/programming is still just that...just like design is still design. Different languages may be analogous to different media for the artist.

    Interactive design and engineering is at least a level of magnitude, (maybe two levels for console as opposed to PC) more complex and constrained than it is for linear. What linear loses in complexity it makes up for in "realism", vast amounts of data processing and seamless integration and compositing.

    In the end the code is designed to do x, y and z. Just like when you design a thing and visualize it it fits the parameters of its design goal.

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  10. #37
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    On a side note with Flashback's discussion with Doug, I remember Nintendo wanting to take an approach with their games that they'll allow people to just watch the cutscenes/or have a story mode where the viewer can watch everything without having to beat the game.

    I honestly don't know how I feel about that. Sure I love watching cutscenes and story mode...but at the same time, I enjoy game play. As Minecraft was mentioned and people "wanting a point" to the game - I enjoyed the fact it was more freeform than point A- to B- to cutscene to C, etc...

    I don't think consoles will completely go away, but I notice more mobile games popping up and was curious how that's affected anyone?

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  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    In the end the code is designed to do x, y and z. Just like when you design a thing and visualize it it fits the parameters of its design goal.
    Exactly. The general rule is that you build re-usable objects/algorithms as individual objects (Object-Oriented Design) where the UI and non-UI components are separate. This is where you can tell the advanced developers from the non-experienced developers. Advanced developers, besides being able to solve a problem, know how to build system/design components that are re-usable across multiple types of applications.

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  13. #39
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    Well nowadays they do add options for most games to watch the cutscenes themselves. I liked Resident Evil 4's approach to Cutscenes. Make them interactive. Use timing and buttons to still add some feeling of gameplay to it. Instead of watching a 10 minute long cutscene twiddling your thumbs.

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  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    I don't think consoles will completely go away, but I notice more mobile games popping up and was curious how that's affected anyone?
    In a rather interesting way mobile, and social games have brought things full circle. We're back to using very simple engines and graphics. The problem now is that "game design" is very hit and miss and being driven by marketing in those niches. What this means is you have a lot of "successful" people, who for whatever reason have a megahit, but are completely clueless about real development and design. End result is an even more exagerated version of copy-cat games, ie: ___-ville.

    Edit: Oh, and my main gripe, people directing projects without any clear design or clue about what they want. I just shun those.

    On the plus side, because development for mobile can be extremely cheap/garage style dev, there are more opportunities for creative, unusual game styles like we had 25 years ago. For a long time we got down to 5 kinds of games: racing, sports, arena combat, role playing/adventure and 1st person shooters. Most games fit in there somewhere.

    Last edited by JeffX99; February 13th, 2012 at 05:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    On a side note with Flashback's discussion with Doug, I remember Nintendo wanting to take an approach with their games that they'll allow people to just watch the cutscenes/or have a story mode where the viewer can watch everything without having to beat the game.
    It has been done already. It's called a "let's play" it was created on Something awful forums using screenshot and commentary. The video ones were created by slowbeef.

    http://lparchive.org/author/Slowbeef#results

    Let's play have commentary like MST3K.
    Longplay are without commentary. a Playthrough of a game.

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  17. #42
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    Thanks Jeff,

    I thought I'd mention it because people are usually stuck on the development mode for consoles, and I think the world has opened up for more kinds of game development. Yes, the copycat games are a definite problem. I believe there was an article about some app copying Temple Run, trucking users into paying for it thinking it was the legit game.

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  19. #43
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    Yep, happens a lot it seems. Even if it's not trying to trick someone many just copy the concept and use it. "HEY YOU! Yeah you! If you like Angry Birds wait till you try Frustrated Bears, you shoot Bears out of a Cannon into shit!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Yes, the copycat games are a definite problem. I believe there was an article about some app copying Temple Run, tricking users into paying for it thinking it was the legit game.
    What do you mean by copycat games? same engine or same gameplay or outright rip-off.

    "Tricking users into paying for it thinking it was the legit game."
    Happens in false anti-virus software a lot.

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  21. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    What do you mean by copycat games? same engine or same gameplay or outright rip-off.

    "Tricking users into paying for it thinking it was the legit game."
    Happens in false anti-virus software a lot.
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/4..._developer.php

    People are thinking they're getting the actual game of Angry Birds or other paid version because of the similar titles

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  23. #46
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    Lord that's even worse than copy cat in the sense of ripping off the design, that's just flat out on purpose trying to take customers. "Plant vs Zombies" instead of Plants vs Zombies. That even had me fooled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Haven't read through all this yet...but basically this is my issue Connie. You think doing architectural viz walk throughs is similar to game design and coding. They aren't.
    We used game engine(s) to make them, so in that aspect they are similar to games based on game engines.

    The ones that were not done in game engines, were animated in 3D studio max, so in that aspect they are similar to entertainment or media animation.

    So.... sorry, I'm not buying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Conniekat, what sort of engineering?
    Civil Engineering, Geology, Seismics and Land Surveying and Geographical Information Systems (GIS) is what my degree revolves around.

    For work, last 10+ year I've been doing a lot of design data analysis (Some database, some cad-based, some Max and game engine and some engineering specific applications) and that evolved into visualizations as well, because there's a lot of crossover skills. I've noticed as of late places like UCLA calling it Urban Simulations. Example: http://www.ust.ucla.edu/ustweb/ust.html

    Last edited by Conniekat8; February 14th, 2012 at 12:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    You are so full of it. You haven't disputed anything because you haven't done anything in the entertainment industry professionally. Doing flythroughs has nothing to do with game dev, or movies.
    I don't have assumptions, I have real world experience, something you lack. I have worked in games working to develope movie properties for Spielberg, Disney, LucasArts and Paramount.
    I'd tell you to stick to what you know but then you'd have to leave this site and I would be denied my daily laugh from your posts. (The one of your teachers drawing is classic clueless Connie always commenting on things she knows nothing about.)
    /takes DP off ignore
    I think you're mistaking me for someone who is interested in what you have to say.
    I would recommend you stop obsessing with me, it's very unhealthy, and extremely unprofessional on a part of a supposed 'seasoned pro', like you.
    Guess what, I can say whatever I want, and all you can do is whine, complain and stomp your feet about it. Suit yourself and have a nice life.
    /puts DP back on ignore

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  26. #49
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    Will you please stop arguing ffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Will you please stop arguing ffs.
    Aren't you as a moderator of some sort supposed to do something (other then swear) when one member is attacking and harrasing another?
    DP has a long history of jumping on my case every chance he gets, for whatever wild hair he has up his bum. Most forums I visit don't allow personal attacks of that sort. Here, I don't seem to have much choice but to 'hit back' so to speak, with DP and three of his buddies.
    It's pretty pathetic they seem to show up together, I guess they need to prop each other up to 'fight me' or some stupid immature thing.
    They need to just put me on ignore, and leave me alone.

    Last edited by Conniekat8; February 14th, 2012 at 01:01 AM.
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  28. #51
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    I'm telling dad..... .... ELWEEELLLLLLL .... e...e-every body's fightin' again they're tearing this family apart!

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  29. #52
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    Shit, the thread is going to be close. I was enjoying Doug's and Jeff's views.

    Connie,
    Read this: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/200...ogramming.html.

    "For work, last 10+ year I've been doing a lot of design data analysis (Some database, some cad-based, some Max and game engine and some engineering specific applications) and that evolved into visualizations as well, because there's a lot of crossover skills. I've noticed as of late places like UCLA calling it Urban Simulations. Example: http://www.ust.ucla.edu/ustweb/ust.html"

    The thing is that the whole concept of a movie is to tell the story using visual. The concept of a game is to interact with a world even if it's heavily scripted.
    The data analysis your doing or have done is/was to make predictions into future events, but the softwares used are only to visualized a problem in a city followed by mathematical and scientific probability and how to solve or relive, a natural disaster.

    Look at Doug's post where he talks about his scientific work.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man_Month tends to have give you a bit of insight on how software is developed usually.

    Last edited by Flashback; February 14th, 2012 at 01:10 AM.
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  30. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    We used game engine(s) to make them, so in that aspect they are similar to games based on game engines.

    The ones that were not done in game engines, were animated in 3D studio max, so in that aspect they are similar to entertainment or media animation.

    So.... sorry, I'm not buying it.
    Wait, are you still talking coding/programming? Because when you say entertainment/media animation I'm thinking artistically, and 3D studio max is just a tool.

    Jeff, how do you think game design coding is different? Or are we talking design again? I'd like to know. Dpaint, how about game development? I admit, that's not my area so I'm totally curious. (I've talked to some co-workers about boarding in games, but that's pretty much it.)



    Alice.
    (ahhh, don't close the thread. I still have to do the what is storyboarding post

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  31. #54
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    lol just go ahead and do the what is story boarding post.
    My goal is to get better at comics for fun, and story boarding and comics go hand and hand.
    Always interested to hear more.

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  32. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFierce View Post
    lol just go ahead and do the what is story boarding post.
    My goal is to get better at comics for fun, and story boarding and comics go hand and hand.
    Always interested to hear more.
    lol. I still have to write it! Patience

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  33. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    Jeff, how do you think game design coding is different? Or are we talking design again? I'd like to know.
    Actually I think coding for games is the same as coding for anything else...with respect of course to the idea that there are different languages for different purposes and systems.

    My wife is a mainframe systems engineer/programmer and it isn't different in kind than the programming for games, or anything else. Code is written to make x, y and z happen. X, y and z may be very different of course...but coding, like design is essentially the same on a fundamental level.

    The scenario flashback mentioned about wave/water physics is a great example. The MIT guy I worked with very closely on that tool and implementation eventually left us to program for NASA. Just like some of my artist friends that work in aerospace as concept and viz guys...they could as easily work in games, film, etc. In fact that reminds that one has consulted on many movies - the Iron Man films and Stealth come to mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Actually I think coding for games is the same as coding for anything else...with respect of course to the idea that there are different languages for different purposes and systems.

    My wife is a mainframe systems engineer/programmer and it isn't different in kind than the programming for games, or anything else. Code is written to make x, y and z happen. X, y and z may be very different of course...but coding, like design is essentially the same on a fundamental level.

    The scenario flashback mentioned about wave/water physics is a great example. The MIT guy I worked with very closely on that tool and implementation eventually left us to program for NASA. Just like some of my artist friends that work in aerospace as concept and viz guys...they could as easily work in games, film, etc. In fact that reminds that one has consulted on many movies - the Iron Man films and Stealth come to mind.
    AEROSPACE. Man. That would be NEAT! How does a person get into that??

    I guess I'm trying to figure out how it's not "architectural viz walk through" then - since I certainly haven't done that either! (trying to unknot the heart of the argument, since I'm lacking some understanding myself)

    I know I'm probably going over something you've explained, but I'm still just a tiny bit lost.

    Oh! and just for another point of view - how has storyboarding worked in the past on your productions?

    Alice.

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    Connie, first, you dragged dpaint into this discussion by accusing me of somehow simply following his assumptions. I make it a very strong aspect of my presence here to simply respond to the discussion at hand and try to clarify or refute information I think is BS. I never attack anyone personally but I also never shy away from challenging a person's assumptions or conclusions if I think they are flat out BS or based on vicarious experience.

    Look, I feel bad that you get yourself so out there on a limb in some of these discussions and then get so upset when you get called on your experience and assumptions. Personally I think you have a lot to offer here but it isn't in being an expert in areas you don't have experience with.

    Someone that is a regular poster (I forget who right now) has a great little signature, something along the lines of, "If you know, come to teach...if you don't, come to learn." I'm just trying to say that you might want to listen more, rather than trying to shout louder than everyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    AEROSPACE. Man. That would be NEAT! How does a person get into that??

    I guess I'm trying to figure out how it's not "architectural viz walk through" then - since I certainly haven't done that either! (trying to unknot the heart of the argument, since I'm lacking some understanding myself)

    I know I'm probably going over something you've explained, but I'm still just a tiny bit lost.

    Oh! and just for another point of view - how has storyboarding worked in the past on your productions?

    Alice.
    Yeah, aerospace is prety cool...but also kind of tricky. I have no idea how those guys manage it...and many of them have had to transfer over to games, television and film. It's all part of the same melting pot anyway, especially in SoCal. There is a lot of movement within entertainment between games, linear and even aeorospace.

    Games don't need a lot of storyboarding, in part because they're non-linear, and even the small amount of linear cut scenes, intros, etc. are pretty minimal. Usually whatever team or outsource studio doing "cinematics" handles the storyboards pretty easily within the team - in somecses maybe one person is great at them and gets a bunch, or maybe everyone does their own for their little chunk of the project. The one thing about games is that these things are not nearly as set in stone as they are in linear entertainment - it changes all the time, each team is different, each project different.

    I did a lot of storyboards back in the day for my projects but they were nothing like you would see in any linear production.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Yeah, aerospace is prety cool...but also kind of tricky. I have no idea how those guys manage it...and many of them have had to transfer over to games, television and film. It's all part of the same melting pot anyway, especially in SoCal. There is a lot of movement within entertainment between games, linear and even aeorospace.

    Games don't need a lot of storyboarding, in part because they're non-linear, and even the small amount of linear cut scenes, intros, etc. are pretty minimal. Usually whatever team or outsource studio doing "cinematics" handles the storyboards pretty easily within the team - in somecses maybe one person is great at them and gets a bunch, or maybe everyone does their own for their little chunk of the project. The one thing about games is that these things are not nearly as set in stone as they are in linear entertainment - it changes all the time, each team is different, each project different.

    I did a lot of storyboards back in the day for my projects but they were nothing like you would see in any linear production.
    I would have thought the aerospace artists were some kind of secret organization... Still, that's neat. If I ever get my painting skills up I'll have to keep my ear to the ground.

    Re: storyboards - not far off from what I've heard. Thanks for the answer.

    Alice.

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