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    Iran

    "US Defense Secretary Panetta believes there is a strong likelihood that Israel will strike Iran in April, May or June — before Iran enters what Israelis described as a “zone of immunity” to commence building a nuclear bomb. Very soon, the Israelis fear, the Iranians will have stored enough enriched uranium in deep underground facilities to make a weapon — and only the United States could then stop them militarily.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu doesn’t want to leave the fate of Israel dependent on American action, which would be triggered by intelligence that Iran is building a bomb, which it hasn’t done yet."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...TkQ_story.html
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    Seeing as both America and Israel have nukes, I cannot think of any reasonable arguments as to why Iran shouldn't have them (apart, of course, from the reasonable argument that NO ONE should have them...)
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    The obvious reason against it is it would start a new cold war between these powers, and it's uncertain either country could eat enough humble pie to befriend each other, like the west eventually did with Russia. Both countries' politicians get a lot of support from demonizing the other side. Yet, military action doesn't seem like a clear solution either.
    Last edited by TASmith; February 3rd, 2012 at 02:32 AM.

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    "I cannot think of any reasonable arguments as to why Iran shouldn't have them"

    Israel cite this:

    "Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from)."
    Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
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    Problem is there is no clear pictures on Iran, there's obviously fear mongering, then there are those that say "Oh I've been to Iran it's beautiful and so peaceful".

    But Nuclear weapons are not a topic I can view as simple as "well they have it over there so they should too" and especially just visiting and saying the people are peaceful doesn't say anything on what goes on behind the scenes of those that govern it. There's a long seeded conflict between the west, Iran and Israel. I don't want to see a country being oppressed but I don't think people can be overly cautious on weapons that can wipe out huge area's, maybe even small countries and destroy the lands, especially ones with limited resources as is. I don't know much about Iran's government or how stable it is, but getting one in place who has a clear barrier on who has their hand on the button is a serious issue not to be taken lightly.


    Nukes and weaponry developments are a weird topic, because basically it turns into every one has their hands on the trigger with guns pointed at each other, but at the same time trying to coexist peacefully in most cases. But all it takes is one nut to pull a trigger for all hell to break loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "US Defense Secretary Panetta believes there is a strong likelihood that Israel will strike Iran in April, May or June. . ."
    The conventional wisdom is that this might provoke a Third Lebanon War as an Iranian backed proxy fight.

    (Perhaps someone should address the issue of the Chinese getting rich selling all those missiles to Hezbollah. . .)

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    couldn't help myself

    Iran
    Last edited by Raoul Duke; February 3rd, 2012 at 03:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    Seeing as both America and Israel have nukes, I cannot think of any reasonable arguments as to why Iran shouldn't have them (apart, of course, from the reasonable argument that NO ONE should have them...)
    But if someone were to have them, much better the US than Iran. Let's not forget that countries are different, and not all countries are equal, and that there are no reasonable arguments to empower theocracies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    Seeing as both America and Israel have nukes, I cannot think of any reasonable arguments as to why Iran shouldn't have them (apart, of course, from the reasonable argument that NO ONE should have them...)
    Um.. because unlike Israel and America which are democracies with very guaranteed and very much exercised freedom of press, Iran is a totalitarian theocracy with institutionalized thought police and conformance to an aggressive ideology?

    I am far less scared of nukes in hands of people who comprehend the consequences of their use, than of nukes in hands of people who want a specific religion to dominate the world at whatever cost.

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    In terms of rhetoric at the the highest levels, in terms of the way the government treats their own people, in terms of legal rights, human rights, women's rights, gay rights, and just about every other measure of social progress, Iran is abhorrent. And yet, I get the feeling those in power would be reserved and cautious in use of the bomb, much like anyone else.

    The big argument to me isn't whether they'd use the bomb, but how simply having it would shape balance of power and influence in the world. And pretty soon, it won't just be Iran, but North Korea, as well. Seems this next century is gonna be just as stressful as the last.

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    And out of all those groups, the US has actually used the bomb on another country. We're not that keen on seeing it happen again.
    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan N View Post
    But if someone were to have them, much better the US than Iran. Let's not forget that countries are different, and not all countries are equal, and that there are no reasonable arguments to empower theocracies.
    And let's not forget that the U.S. is the only country that has actually used its nukes in a war. No one else has. Yet.

    Anyway, it is time for the west to stop prescribing to other countries what their defense policy should be.

    The whole question may well be moot, mind you: I don't think America can really afford to get dragged into yet another war at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Um.. because unlike Israel and America which are democracies with very guaranteed and very much exercised freedom of press, Iran is a totalitarian theocracy with institutionalized thought police and conformance to an aggressive ideology?

    I am far less scared of nukes in hands of people who comprehend the consequences of their use, than of nukes in hands of people who want a specific religion to dominate the world at whatever cost.
    So institute sanctions or drop bombs on China then, seeing as they have nukes too, and are not renowned for their democratic principles. And Russia, which is a nominal democracy but is in fact probably ruled by the Russian mafia.

    Of course, you wouldn't DARE do anything about those two, would you? Better beat up the small guys then...

    Me, I think Iran is a hornet's nest. If you are going to poke a stick in it, don't act all hurt and surprised when you get stung.
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    So we're going to do that whole thing where America, being the bullies we are, are backing Israel so they can beat up people they don't like under the guise that we're helping to fight a boogeyman invented by Republicans and Jews? And that if the US goes to war again, we deserve any 9/11-like retaliation?

    This is getting too easy.
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    The small guys are the ones that like to flex their power to the big guys. Iran as far as I know isn't very stable economically, socially or politically (Anyone can throw anything out there to say they are, I don't know any more than what I read which can be biased on a subject like this).

    I picture Iran very similarly to North Korea, and hell on North Korean documentaries (as rare as they are) their people flat out proudly say they still are working towards "reunifying with the south under the great leader". I can picture a similar intent with Arabs and Israeli's and their disputes over land.


    If I'm not mistaken North Korea has pretty much participated in Nuclear Extortion, I can picture Iran doing the same once it's developed.




    It's still not cut and dry for me.

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    iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "US Defense Secretary Panetta believes there is a strong likelihood that Israel will strike Iran in April, May or June — before Iran enters what Israelis described as a “zone of immunity” to commence building a nuclear bomb. Very soon, the Israelis fear, the Iranians will have stored enough enriched uranium in deep underground facilities to make a weapon — and only the United States could then stop them militarily.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu doesn’t want to leave the fate of Israel dependent on American action, which would be triggered by intelligence that Iran is building a bomb, which it hasn’t done yet."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...TkQ_story.html
    this is noise , my dad did the ww2 , he loaded the dead in dump trucks, the only thing changes are the leaders , it doesnt matter Obama , Bush, Harper all the same, wake people you have no control, you belong to the internet talk show ,at the end you die, and will be forgotten

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    So institute sanctions or drop bombs on China then, seeing as they have nukes too, and are not renowned for their democratic principles. And Russia, which is a nominal democracy but is in fact probably ruled by the Russian mafia.
    I am not fond of Russian politics at the moment, but at least they are not as ideologically batshit insane as the USSR was. Nor today's China, whose communist idealism has been muted a lot with economical issues. If China decides they are the new USSR and starts exporting communism, I'll be more worried. Likewise, if the new crop of the scary Russian fascists comes to power - it is not the mafia in Kremlin you should be afraid of, it's the rabid nationalist skinheads getting in power.

    North Korea just wants to be left alone at the moment; they are so caught in their own economical problems and power games between the US and China that they apparently see nukes as a deterrent from being invaded from both sides and becoming a turf for big powers' battles once again. You haven't mentioned England and France, for some reason. India and Pakistan are using their nukes as deterrent against each other (thanks again, British Empire!) Israel is surrounded by hostile Islamic countries and uses theirs as deterrent against invasion, too.

    None of the existing nuclear powers have openly declared any interest to destroy any other country, though. And none of them has shown to be inclined to nuke anyone else, even at war, except the US, and the question remains open on whether conventional land war with Japan would have resulted in fewer deaths and less damage than the two nukes they dropped. Israel had not used theirs even in 1973 when their situation became very close to catastrophic.

    Iran, on the other hand, is controlled by Islamic theocrats who do not miss any opportunity to declare that Israel is a "cancer" and that it must be wiped off the map. Combined with the fact that they are heavily financing terrorist groups in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Gaza, and that they are so hell bent on exporting their particular strain of Islam they are making other Islamic governments uneasy, I think it is understandable why Israel is nervous about them developing nukes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    America which are democracies with very guaranteed and very much exercised freedom of press
    Attachment 1415087


    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    Seems this next century is gonna be just as stressful as the last.
    Far more so. When the global currency kicks in, the only way to buy food from the supermarket is swipe your wrist on the scanner at checkout, which will access your bank account from your RFID chip which also contains all of your personal data; blood type, genetic structure, address, phone numbers, family & friends, which video store you rented DVDs from last Wednesday, what kind of cheese you most like on your pizza...


    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    And out of all those groups, the US has actually used the bomb on another country. We're not that keen on seeing it happen again.
    The people are a very different group from those that make the decisions. And they sure learned from Hiroshima; why give yourself a bad reputation by displaying your identity when you can disguise your strikes as natural disasters.

    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    And Russia, which is a nominal democracy but is in fact probably ruled by the Russian mafia.
    What?

    Me, I think Iran is a hornet's nest. If you are going to poke a stick in it, don't act all hurt and surprised when you get stung.
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Isr...266777092.html

    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    I don't think America can really afford to get dragged into yet another war at this point.
    True, not that many soldiers are likely to be deployed domestically as they hire black ops from Serbia to take care of the local terrorists

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    Quote Originally Posted by arenhaus View Post
    Iran, on the other hand, is controlled by Islamic theocrats who do not miss any opportunity to declare that Israel is a "cancer" and that it must be wiped off the map. Combined with the fact that they are heavily financing terrorist groups in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Gaza, and that they are so hell bent on exporting their particular strain of Islam they are making other Islamic governments uneasy, I think it is understandable why Israel is nervous about them developing nukes.
    It is perfectly understandable why ANYONE would be nervous about them developing nukes. Still doesn't give you the right to prescribe their defense policies to them.

    My own guess is that they are developing nukes for no other reason than to defend themselves against American aggression. After all, Iraq and Afghanistan are right on their doorstep. Speak of getting nervous! Their paranoia may well be unnecessary now that Dubya is no longer U.S. president.

    If I were Obama, I would go meet Ahmadinejad en tell him: "Feel free to develop all the nukes you want, but know this: let them fall into the hands of terrorists, or use them in a war of aggression, and Iran will be turned into a uniform plate of green glass."

    As for Israel, it is not clear to me what America gets out of the deal, other than making enemies. Seems pretty pointless to me. It is clear that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians actually want peace, and that they are hell-bent on living locked in mutual hatred forever. Why not let them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    So we're going to do that whole thing where America, being the bullies we are, are backing Israel so they can beat up people they don't like under the guise that we're helping to fight a boogeyman invented by Republicans and Jews? And that if the US goes to war again, we deserve any 9/11-like retaliation?

    This is getting too easy.
    If you go to war again you may well go bankrupt, after which retaliation will become unnecessary.

    Anyway, it is irrelevant here what people supposedly deserve or not. Actions have consequences, whether you deserve those consequences or not.

    Not that I think you are in any imminent danger of terrorist attacks. You have after all fought two wars now - Iraq and Afghanistan - thus far with complete impunity. In fact, the only people who seem to think America is in perpetual danger are the Americans themselves. And their paranoia is eating them alive, to the point where they are now ready to repeal their constitution and bill of rights, and become precisely that which they are supposedly fighting.

    Man, it's like watching the fall of the Roman empire on CNN... :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    In fact, the only people who seem to think America is in perpetual danger are the Americans themselves. And their paranoia is eating them alive, to the point where they are now ready to repeal their constitution and bill of rights, and become precisely that which they are supposedly fighting.
    Exactly. Although, 'terrorism' is a distraction. Tyranny can't work if the people are aware of it, so they create a scapegoat to keep the people looking in the other direction, all-the-while gradually putting the systems in place. But the people are aware (well, a few; enough for it to be a 'threat'); hence SOPA. People are using the internet to communicate and share ideas. Look up pretty much any 'conspiracy' video on youtube, see the comments and you'd be surprised at the amount of people who know the shit's going to hit the fan. Youtube is owned by Google, who are in bed with the CIA.

    What I'm sure is even more frightening to them, is that their own soldiers are aware of what's going on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    If you go to war again you may well go bankrupt, after which retaliation will become unnecessary.

    Anyway, it is irrelevant here what people supposedly deserve or not. Actions have consequences, whether you deserve those consequences or not.

    Not that I think you are in any imminent danger of terrorist attacks. You have after all fought two wars now - Iraq and Afghanistan - thus far with complete impunity. In fact, the only people who seem to think America is in perpetual danger are the Americans themselves. And their paranoia is eating them alive, to the point where they are now ready to repeal their constitution and bill of rights, and become precisely that which they are supposedly fighting.

    Man, it's like watching the fall of the Roman empire on CNN... :-)
    You got all that from CNN eh? Get a new US news source.
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    You got all that from CNN eh? Get a new US news source.
    Actually I don't watch TV news at all. My information is almost certainly skewed, because what one reads in the media often bears little relationship to what is actually going on.

    Between the lines I do seem to read a rampant sense of paranoia in the western world, especially America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    Seeing as both America and Israel have nukes, I cannot think of any reasonable arguments as to why Iran shouldn't have them (apart, of course, from the reasonable argument that NO ONE should have them...)
    Personally, I don't want any government with religious extremists or idiots in power to have nukes. So that includes America after these coming elections. They say Obama didn't do much, but at least he's brainy, I don't want a moron in charge of the world.

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    I don't think the American electorate is in the mood for another 10 year, trillion dollar war to try to install another socialism flavored theocracy.

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    The way I see it, ALL religion is bullshit. I tend not to say this out loud and I tend to tolerate religion when it's existence doesn't threaten me and my loved ones. But if someone somewhere has a nuke and threatens to blow up somewhere else because of religion, if they feel their god wants them to kill us for whatever reason, I'm all for a pre-emptive strike. I know how that sounds, and I realise that even though I am an atheist, just by living in the western world my moral compass is heavily effected by christian beliefs, but I simply don't care. I am completely against the destruction of any civilisation whether it is West>East or East>West, if any one not agreeing with another religion is the main reason for it.

    The killing of other humans where religion is involved as the motivation is the equivalent of saying "the smurfs told me to do it" in my book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNSWOrLD View Post
    The killing of other humans where religion is involved as the motivation is the equivalent of saying "the smurfs told me to do it" in my book.
    Fuck yeah, dude. What this stems from is people expecting others to follow under their wing, while refusing to take no for an answer. It's tribal thinking; "if you're not with us, you're against us."

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    And let's not forget that the U.S. is the only country that has actually used its nukes in a war. No one else has. Yet.

    Anyway, it is time for the west to stop prescribing to other countries what their defense policy should be.

    The whole question may well be moot, mind you: I don't think America can really afford to get dragged into yet another war at this point.
    I don't know - I like that The West is sticking its nose in other people's business. If I had any say in the matter (which, perhaps thankfully, I don't), I'd want them to continue policing other countries. Especially countries with supreme leaders and theocratic governments.

    And even if America cannot afford another war, it's not like anybody else can afford a war with America either. At least not yet. I'd like for it to stay that way, at least for now.

    And just in general: I've always seen anti-American bellicosity as another way of declaring, "I don't know shit about politics, and I'm too stupid to learn anything about it anyway." There's a chance I'm wrong - I don't know much about politics myself as it is a deceptively complex subject in which, I suspect, few people are adequately qualified to authoritatively converse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    If I were Obama, I would go meet Ahmadinejad en tell him
    That you apparently cite Ahmadinejad as the leader shows how much you know about who is in power in Iran. Don't presume that his title of "President" means the same thing as in the US. He's not even really close to the real power; he's just a loudmouth equivalent of a prime minister. If he shouts about wiping Israel off the map, no one should be really concerned. It's when the real dictator, Ali Hamenei, does the same, that things get scary.

    In any case, I don't think US trying to talk sense to them would do any good. They seem to base their internal propaganda on hatred and fear, painting USA and Israel as aggressors who are dreaming of invading Iran, and so using a picture of the enemy to justify the abysmal life conditions within. A lot of their aggressive rhetorics must be really directed at the internal market. But anything coming from US would be likely taken as lies simply because of the official policy of anti-US propaganda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    It is clear that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians actually want peace, and that they are hell-bent on living locked in mutual hatred forever. Why not let them?
    Because the "Palestinians" are the Arabs' way to get at Israel. The Arabs living in Israel are for some reason Israeli Arabs, while exactly the same Arabs living in specific territories like Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem are called "Palestinians" and suddenly have a claim on all the rest. It's all a festering political figment with very scary real-world results.

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