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    Illustration Jury Show

    Not sure where to post this but figured "general" is about as close as it gets…
    There's a really awesome juried show coming up in Richmond, VA and it has a superstar jury including:

    Sterling Hundley
    Alice Cho
    Noah Scalin
    George Pratt
    Martin Gee

    It's always a fantastic showing. Check out more here:
    http://richmondillustrators.com/juri.../current-show/

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    Any show that charges an entry fee and a hanging fee is BS. I don't care who the judges are.

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    How can you possibly believe that dpaint? That is pretty standard practice. Society of Illustrators, American Illustration, Communication Arts (they did last time I entered). These are only three examples of many and they are about the best.

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    Sounds like a scam to me I'll just stick to the activities here in conceptart.org
    The best thing about it

    ITS FREE LOL

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    Well I am a gallery artist and have done national shows for the past twenty years. Oil Painters of America, California Art Club, Laguna Beach Plein Air, Pasadena Museum, Museum of Contemporary Masters to name a few. Sales are about 400k in these shows, no one ever charges a hanging fee. The prizes for these shows are in the tens of thousands of dollars for each medal. There are shows I can't get into yet which do a million or more in sales every year and the prizes are doubled with no hanging fee like the Prix De West, the Coors Show, Colorado Governors show and the Autry Show so I guess the idea that the shows you mention are the best is really subjective.

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    Sorry I wasn't clear. Illustration. This thread is about an illustration show. The gallery world is a different thing. There are so few quality shows for illustrators that it is not as subjective.

    This clearly not a scam. This club is well known. And you can be sure if illustrators like Sterling Hundley and George Prat are involved it's not a scam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by udonhead View Post
    Sounds like a scam to me I'll just stick to the activities here in conceptart.org
    The best thing about it

    ITS FREE LOL
    Its $30 for the jury fee $5 per piece after that for more than one piece and $10 to hang so its not free. They don't take a commission, probably because they have no collectors come to the show so they charge you upfront to make sure they make money.

    If the venue believed in what they were doing they would have a percentage of sales and no hanging fee. That way they have to materially particpate in the show by actively trying to sell work.
    The model has been around for years and works really well for artists and galleries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarman View Post
    Sorry I wasn't clear. Illustration. This thread is about an illustration show. The gallery world is a different thing. There are so few quality shows for illustrators that it is not as subjective.

    This clearly not a scam. This club is well known. And you can be sure if illustrators like Sterling Hundley and George Prat are involved it's not a scam.
    So because your an illustrator you should be taken advantage of? Illustration is so special we have to do it a completely different way from the venues that have a proven track record of success?

    You know every illustrator wants illustration to be thought of the same as gallery work but they can't really make the leap can they.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Its $30 for the jury fee $5 per piece after that for more than one piece and $10 to hang so its not free. They don't take a commission, probably because they have no collectors come to the show so they charge you upfront to make sure they make money.

    If the venue believed in what they were doing they would have a percentage of sales and no hanging fee. That way they have to materially particpate in the show by actively trying to sell work.
    The model has been around for years and works really well for artists and galleries.
    I was talking about the activities forum on conceptart.org not the jury show sorry for the misunderstanding

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    Again this is an illustration show. It is primarily about showcasing work that has already been used as illustration. It is not a typical commercial gallery show. That is a different world. So yes they need to defer costs and perhaps even make a little money for their efforts. The Society of Illustrators in NY does a similar show on a much larger scale and produce a beautiful annual (catalog) from the accepted entries. They have threes shows exhibiting the actual work. They don't hang the show to make money but to showcase illustration. Illustrators, students, schools, etc. come through to lean about their profession or future profession.

    I don't understand why you think that illustrators need to follow the same model as landscape artists. The work, as usage, has already been sold and this is just a record of the best of that year (according to a jury).

    I do both and my gallery dealings are completely different form my illustration dealings. As an illustrator I don't pine to be a "fine artist" I just do gallery work if I want to.

    I don't believe any of my colleagues believe they are being taken advantage of when they enter these shows. Many careers have been built on the exposure that comes from the annuals. They are a proven reference for art directors, editors, publishers, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    So because your an illustrator you should be taken advantage of? Illustration is so special we have to do it a completely different way from the venues that have a proven track record of success?

    You know every illustrator wants illustration to be thought of the same as gallery work but they can't really make the leap can they.
    It's not a matter of that. Illustration shows and annuals aren't funded by commissions on sales, in fact they rarely have systems set up to even deal with that. They are seen as advertising/promotional opportunities and, considering what most successful illustrators spend on self-promotion, are a drop in the bucket.


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    Still sounds like a scam

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    Still sounds like a scam
    Why? Do you have a lot of experience with these things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by udonhead View Post
    Still sounds like a scam
    Ok, dude, the other three guys in this thread are pretty darn serious industry professionals. You may want to sit back and listen.

    [kitteh twaps udonhead upside the head with a clue-by-four]

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarman View Post
    I don't understand why you think that illustrators need to follow the same model as landscape artists. The work, as usage, has already been sold and this is just a record of the best of that year (according to a jury).
    The shows I'm talking about aren't shows for "landscape artists" Most of the people in them are ex-illustrators; half he work is historical, narrative and figurative painting, so I hear them talk about how they didn't get any respect as illustrators, they had no place to sell the work and the low prices paid for the work if they do sell it. So what do working illustrators do, they set up a system to contuinue that.

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    Yeah, I guess you're talking to those that didn't really make it in illustration. Why didn't they get any respect and from whom were they seeking it? I only used landscape artists because I didn't want to type out the others.

    Maybe you and I should have a conversation. I moved away from illustration because of personality and strange work but I still do and enjoy it. The thing is there are plenty of illustrators who love illustration and thrive for whom this system has worked very well. You seem to be judging from a point of disillusioned illustrators rather than those who support and benefit from the system.

    You keep bringing up the whole money thing as an indicator of success. While that is one there are those who truly have a passion for what they do and don't just move around for the buck.

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    The sense I get is not they didn't make it but that they burned out trying to make ends meet having to live in NYC self promote and take crap from people who didn't know what they were talking about. These are people who raised families and had successful careers and got fed up with the BS.

    The money is a part of it for them but also autonomy, when they see guys at the Autry and Prix de West shows selling paintings of cowboys and historical scenes for 6 figures per painting and no deadline or an AD telling them not to use green.

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    Your scope seems to include only a small part of the illustration world. There is a thriving, exciting, group out there doing well and loving what they do. Now I'm not saying that they don't do other things too. Galleries have really expanded over they years and illustration of all kinds is being sold. It's another avenue for illustration. The problem as I see it is that you seem to be condemning a system that has worked and still works for a large group of illustrators because it didn't work for another group.

    You system works for you and others but so does this one for another group. Sterling Hundley and George Pratt, both teachers for Illustration Academy linked to CA, have been a part of this system and still participate. I'm not sure, especially considering your thoughtful post history here, how you can argue that.

    Last edited by bcarman; January 28th, 2012 at 12:08 PM.
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    Because they're teachers who do illustration on the side, so can cherry pick their assignments as opposed to people who make their living as illustrators that may not have that luxury.

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    Whoa, you need to check their resumes. Bad assumption. You have to know that I could give you an exhaustive list of illustrators who do these shows and make their sole living as illustrators.

    This is very strange that you're defending this position. Are you an illustration hater?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarman View Post
    Whoa, you need to check their resumes. Bad assumption. You have to know that I could give you an exhaustive list of illustrators who do these shows and make their sole living as illustrators.

    This is very strange that you're defending this position. Are you an illustration hater?
    Dude ,

    You are denying they teach for a living? I started as an illustrator and I continue to work as a concept/production artist as well as a gallery artist. I happen to be in both worlds and always have been. I defend illustration all the time from gallery twats who think they are better than illustrators.

    That doesn't mean I don't have problems with the sysytem and how it is set up for showing illustration. My point is to question the idea these shows are so great the way they are run. I know as many illustrators and production guys as you do and I'm not hearing what you are hearing about how wonderfull it is especially the last few years.

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    Whether they teach or not is not the issue. But they were working as illustrators before they taught as did I. Read my following sentence. A I might even resent the fact that education is excluded somehow from the business of illustration.I worked my ass off to get here.

    The point is the system. Are you saying that the gallery system, built for showing original work, is better for illustration? Is that your point? These shows and annuals are not the only exposure for illustrators. The industry grows and and expands and adapts, but they still work. I guess I'm not sure what you're saying dpaint. That the few dollars for entry and hanging fees (more accurately publishing fees in some cases) are a stupid thing to pay. Buying exposure in directories whether print of digital can cost thousands and receive not nearly as much exposure as many annuals. Part of the reason is because the gateway of a jury to get in.

    Maybe we are talking about different ends of the illustration industry because there are very different ends. I'll defer to you in matters of concept, gaming, entertainment work but there are other parts of the business where this model is still working.

    I haven't even touched on the part about community. There is an illustration community that thrives on communication and contact with each other. These organizations and shows as are a large part of building and maintaining the community.

    What system would you advocate for showing illustration? And would you do it for free?

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    My point is if you want to have a show don't front load the fees, have the sponsors and venue materially participate in the success of the show by providing the space. They have to bring in people, advertise and all the other things a venue should do so the participants have a successful show it has nothing to do if its illustration or not. If your good enough to get into the show nobody is doing you a favor, they have a shop, big deal, you are doing them a favor by providing good art for their venue, why should the aritist bear all the cost?

    Otherwise just make a catalog have the participants pay for space in it, forget about the hanging and jury fees.

    Last edited by dpaint; January 28th, 2012 at 03:00 PM.
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    I'm not telling you anything you don't know here but there are others that might want to know. Front loading the fees help defer the costs. If only the people who made it into the show paid for the publication, administrative, advertising, and other costs the fees could be as enormous as those advertising directories' are. And it's not only the costs of this show but these are organizations who have other costs and rely on shows as part of their income.

    The sponsors cannot rely on selling the work to get paid for the space etc. These pieces, for the most part, were not made for sale in galleries in fact a lot of them exist in digital form. This show serves a different purpose than a traditional gallery show like I said.

    It comes down to the fact that I gladly pay some upfront costs to have my work juried by what I view as the best in the industry in order for inclusion in a prestigious annual.

    Granted the show posted here is not the biggest or the best but as in any business there are levels of achievement and competition. The jurors are distinguished and it is not a scam.

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    in your model Bill what does the venue bring to the table? Whats their participation other than providing a space which the artist hanging fee pays for, if the artists submitting bear all the costs?

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    The venue is not just a venue but an organization and a book for distribution. The shows that I participate in have high quality publications which are not only sold but distributed to large lists of potential clients. The books and the shows have become go to tools for those who hire work. It's a showcase of the year's best work, juried by proven pros who need to be somehow compensated, rather than a commercial gallery selling work so there needs to be a way to pay for it.

    I think it is imperative that an artist understand their audience and enter shows which fits their pursuits. I believe this is where our divide lies. These are proven tools for illustrators doing certain kinds of work and may not be appropriate for others.

    The thing is it also not just about the the show and the venue. I also believe that illustrators have communities within the discipline as a whole. Organizations can develop around these communities. CA is an online community but sometimes that is not enough. So some of the funds certainly go to the organization and its upkeep.

    I would never advocate up front or hanging fee payment for a commercial gallery show, that's vanity gallery stuff at its worst. But I hope you can see that this is a different beast.

    Last edited by bcarman; January 28th, 2012 at 07:31 PM.
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