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Thread: Environment wip for crit
January 12th, 2012 #1
Environment wip for crit
Before I develop this environment I'd like your opinion.
How is the lighting, perspective, and does it does the overall image read?
Is there anything about it that has you wondering wtf? I'm trying to get early stages to work well. thank you!
Hide this ad by registering as a memberJanuary 12th, 2012 #2
The perspective seems pretty skewed, especially on the upper parts of the picture, to an extent where it's starting to look like an optic illusion of some kind. Also I think some of the buildings don't exactly follow perspective. If you feel like going ahead with an extreme perspective like this, I suggest guide lines. Composition feels good, values are tight. What are those black borders on each side of the painting?
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January 12th, 2012 #3
The black borders were an accident that I liked but I'm not sure why. They will go probably go away but I left them for now to see if anything comes of it.
Yeah, the perspective is really blown out. The original sketch was a skyline in a horizontal format. It's the same perspective and those buildings loosely painted at the bottom look more natural. I was experimenting and lengthened the canvas and kept the same perspective and just built upwards making the mega structures.
I like that it is blown out and think it could make for an exciting piece. But is it too blown out? Maybe I just need to go for it. Maybe it needs a third vanishing point with this much height.
January 12th, 2012 #4Registered User
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Compare by yourself:
For stylization with wrong perspective on purpose, they're too close to a right perspective in order to get it as intended, so either correct it or more exaggerate it.
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January 12th, 2012 #5
Derra: Yes, you need a 3rd Vanishing point when you see a tall building from above. Actually in reality there are always 3 VPs but one's distortion is so little that you may not see it. Remember that they lie to us in drawing books: VPs don't proyect stright lines, but instead curves, look at a train in a station, if your in the middle of the hall, you can see one VP to the right, one to the left, and the front seems pretty stright, but it ends in both this VPs, so clearly it's not stright.
You can achive the distortion needed for the 3rd VP copying the merged image and using Transform>Warp to curve it.
By the way is a pretty good painting, I overpainted a little not very well, but you'll see my points. Maybe it's a little foggy in the floor, you surley wanted the effect; but it may be too much. If I were you, I think I'd continue a little more, adding some tiny details and such.
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January 13th, 2012 #6
Thank you for the crit. I didn't know about the curvature that takes place with perspective. Thank you. The paint over is appreciated too, something to work against. I'm going to read more about what you've pointed out and work it into this. thanks.
Thanks for taking time to crit this Lennon, Swamp Thing, and Kauil.
January 13th, 2012 #7
Atmospheric perspective is 3 dimensional. It applies to height of objects as well, so the shadow of the object in the sky shouldn't be that dark. Albeit more dust partciles are closer to the ground.
You shouldn't always rely on perspective lines for drawing forms if you don't fully understand it, sometimes you want to rely on your intuition. This is the case for because your boxes in perspective are distorted due to improper construction of perspective.
There is a lack of 3 point perspective. You want to convey a bit of 3 point perspective in a scene like this. It doesn't have to be perfect 3 point perspective, you need to construct it enough such that it conveys 3 point perspective to our intuitions, but it is important to read about 3 point perspectives first.
Last edited by Vay; January 13th, 2012 at 05:19 AM.My Sketchbook
Twinkle, twinkle little star
I don't wonder what you are
For by spectroscopic ken
I know that you are hydrogen - Ian D.
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January 13th, 2012 #8
Awesome, thank you Vay.
January 13th, 2012 #9
Your VPs are place much too close together is the problem. This causes distortion and makes it look off. While I agree you need a third VP in the sky for tall forms, I don't agree that the lines will curve. Parallel, straight lines simply don't curve...and it is the projection of these lines to a vanishing point that establishes the perspective (for that particular object). Objects perpendicular and parallel to each other project to the same vanishing points.
January 13th, 2012 #10
While this was probably taken with a fisheye lense as a few pictures and stitched together later, you could see this in real life
if you were to step there in the midle of the train and you were to tilt your head, you just have to think about it a little to see
that this is true. JeffX99VP lines ALWAYS curve. I have no doubt about it and there are no exceptions, but the
distortion is usually to little to notice, and you´ll never see much of the curve without tilting your head.
As mentioned in this picture you see to VP that are too close; but this doesn´t need to be a mistake, it could be an effect, and
if they are to close and the artist wants them that way, the curve will show. People like Escher use this effect a lot, an many
others too will add some curvature to show a bigger image.
You don´t need to study perspective, you just need to mediatate about it, and understand why it happens the way it happens.
January 13th, 2012 #11
A wide angle or fish-eye photo is a really poor example to illustrate this point as it is not even close as to how human binocular vision sees. Perspective is simply the effect of parallel lines converging in the distance. Parallel lines do not curve. They don't appear to curve...at least to human vision...they are by definition, straight.
And of course artists can play with perspective as much as they want for dramatic effect...it doesn't mean straight lines curve in reality. I think you don't really understand perspective well enough and have been too influenced by photography.
Anyway, if you're going to offer advice and give examples please make sure you understand what you're talking about. Not saying this to be rude or create conflict, but perspective is confusing enough for inexperienced artists without adding a bunch of completely inaccurate information.
January 13th, 2012 #12Registered User
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I have to aggree with Jeff. For the example with the train: I saw some good artworks with this curve, however this by combining 2 different perspectives - for example with the view on a tower up in the sky and at the same time down to the ground - camera positioned in the mid. But that's kinda experimental and also the curve mainly was in the mid, where both perspectives are connecting, barely in each perspetive (up and down view) In the photo with the train, that proves - the curve is where those perspectives connect only.
When you look into both directions of a train at the same time, you're not having human eyes (not entirely sure but I even believe the curve is only created because you're turning your head in a curve when switching perspective). You can just decide which direction you're looking at, left end of the train, right end of the train or directly on the wagon in front of you. But each standing for it self, without involving your turning head wont really show a curve.
So imho the main issue is, like said, where you put the VPs, usually I find that they're more dynamous when they're closer to each other, however at a certain point it is too close, resulting in having them look wrong, and this is basically where the right feeling is needed. I used to built my reference with sketchup (really nice 3D prog for perspective help, very easy and fast to learn and also fast to operate with) because you could switch the VPs in this programm with the advantage of seeing before if it works or not, while maya for example didn't allow me this (sorry if that is a wrong information, I just never found any possible way of doing so).
January 13th, 2012 #13
As stated before (when I clarified that this was stitched probably from a Fish eye lens) you can see this in real life. You can always just go to your train station and see it..
The fact that YOU can`t see both VP at the same time doesn`t mean that the lines aren`t curving, they are curving even if it gives the illusion that thy`re not. The train example is a real life example. if you watch a train you`ll be able to see both vanishing points by just by tilting your head, but yet if you watch the middle part it looks stright, if it weren`t slighlty curving, both VP would meet in the middle in a very unrealistic way producing an angle. But that doesn`t happen in real life. It may have happened in those "draw perspective the marvel way" books they used to gave us, but not in real life.
You can all line up again this but doesn`t make it less true. VP lines always curve an always will.
Swamp thing said that the curving was just “experimental” since no human could see both VP points at the same time, but, Swamp Thing: you don`t need to see both VP to see the curve, it will start progressively as you approach the middle from eithr side. A fish eye lens would make this more evident, but this is there all the time. So, in our case, since the building was starting to tilt to the upper VP, the curve would start to get more pronounced there. True that mine was a little exaggerated, that`s an effect, but the fact of VP lines curving is real, and foundamental to understand VPs well, and not the other way around.
Conflict is unnecessary, I don`t have anything against any of you for not believing what I`m saying. I know that both think honestly that you`re making a good thing by posting, so I don`t recent any of you in any way, you`re only trying to be helpful. But since we can communicate, let me say that after hearing your views, I think that my first post was accurated and shall not change it, nor will I stop saying that VP lines are curved to people that`s learning them, since it describes the optical effect in an adequate fashion.
I`ll let Derra and any of you decide what you may or may not believe.