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Thread: In God We Trust

  1. #181
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    "Couldn't the same arguments work any irrational belief that produces some positivity ?"

    I guess thats for each person to decide isnt it? I hope with luck that everything will turn out alright
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  3. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Would you lie or twist the truth a little bit to someone in order to get them out of serious danger? ?
    Sure of course it depends on what constitutes "serious danger" but religion does not have "serious danger" in the rational sense. It manufactures punishment if one does not adhere to the lie. The lie is that someone, some man, knows what happens when you die. It is NOT ok to lie to someone in this way to get what "you" want. Telling your kids that if they do not clasp their hands together and talk to the ceiling that Satan is gonna come get them and burn them forever is abusive.
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  5. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    But if they were motivated to provide care that would not otherwise have existed by their beliefs, would you prefer they hadnt bothered because their theology didnt jive with yours?
    Dude, don't start the whole "You're just being intolerant" bit. Either argue with me straight up or stop replying. Morality and doing good things exists independently of religion. I'd prefer people to recognize that rather than kiss ass because it's politically correct. Plus, appeal to consequences.

    Adding up the pros and cons isnt a good way of analysing a thing? Why not?
    A thing like history? No. Shall we add up the pro's and con's of Vietnam? How about the Holocaust? WWII? The Spanish Inquisition? The invention of electricity? Or we could, you know, just stick to what happened.

    In your limited characterisation of religion, maybe. Ie believing a bunch of fairytales are literally true and acting like retard as a result. But to people who find comfort and support in their religious community, or in the idea that their loved ones might still exist in some form after death, or wisdom in religious teaching, and therefore their lives are happier as a result, it is quite utilitarian and rational.
    Strawman (making up how I characterize religion and then arguing against that).

    You seem to think everyone should be exactly like you, and that the only truth is that the universe is a giant empty clock.
    How's that?

    I happen to agree with you, albeit the clock is of such fantastic complexity that it is just as miraculous as any water-into-wine stunt, but people who dont share our views deserve tolerance and respect, not contempt and condemnation, a philosophy which is central to many religions.
    I don't think you do agree with me because apparently you have no idea what I'm talking about. And respect? You demand my respect but accuse me of being fascist and cold?
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  7. #184
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    "Shall we add up the pro's and con's of Vietnam? How about the Holocaust? WWII? The Spanish Inquisition? The invention of electricity? Or we could, you know, just stick to what happened. "

    Why not? The Holocaust: cons; millions of innocent people were brutally murdered. Pro: none.

    WWII: Con: Millions of people on all sides died. Pro: the cancer of Nazism was prevented from taking over the world.

    Seems alright to me. Arnt value judgements based on analysing pros and cons a keystone of rational thought?

    Or we could, you know, just stick to what happened.

    what, you know, happened?

    "Strawman (making up how I characterize religion and then arguing against that)."

    Feel free to characterise religion then.

    "I'd prefer people to recognize that rather than kiss ass because it's politically correct. "

    Political correctness has resulted in a legal basis for sexual and racial equality in the workplace. Whats wrong with that? Seems like a step in the right direction?

    "And respect? You demand my respect but accuse me of being fascist and cold? "

    I dont demand your respect, or care, at all. Where did I say you were a fascist? You made that up. Im saying people with views on spirituality that dont align with yours deserve respect not contempt.
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  8. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Ross View Post
    Sure of course it depends on what constitutes "serious danger" but religion does not have "serious danger" in the rational sense.
    Well, if you stopped taking thinks to the extremes, you might even be able to see that some of the religious teachings *can* get people out of serious danger.

    Also, at the risk of some of the believers jumping all over me, I'd like to point out that the 'belief in god or hell etc..' aren't really supposed to be taken literally.

    But let's say you don't believe in god or religion and can't stomach the spiritual or intelectual stuff, and put things in plainer terms.

    Let's go over the 'deadly sins' for example, and secularize them, to explain they aren't really that full of shit.

    Imagine society in the old day, when this stuff was written, things will be more obvious in that context, however, they can still apply today (perhaps a bit less frequently)

    1. Lust.... In the old days, Lusting and acting upon that lust could easily get you killed. In some societies it still is, or was until recently legal to kill a cheating spouse. And even if it's not legal, if someone gets murdered over jealousy, once you;re dead, you're dead. Putting the jealous one that shoots you doesn't being the victim back to life. Why is it a 'deadly sin'... because in hooman society it is one of the things that frequently causes people to meet an early demise. How do you deter thick headed and over confident people the best... by scaring the shit out of them. 'Burning in hell' did a pretty good job at scaring people, especially in the older days when life expectancy was shorter, and a lot of people hung their hopes that there is something after that.

    You kind of have to understand a little bit of society and how it evolved and how people are to understand the benefits of religions.

    2. Gluttony.... we all know in modern world, since the medicine has proven it scientifically, that obesity takes a huge toll on the body, and often leads to early demise.

    3. Greed .... you steal from people and cheat them out of stuff... somone is likely to get ticked off and blow your head off... Compared to envy, greed tends to be on a more grand scale.

    4. Sloth ... You get lazy and don't take care of yourself, or how you'll survive, you'll eventually find yourself in a pickle... get ill, or starve, or become someone else's burden, and then they get fed up with you, and leave you with no resources to take care of yourself.

    5. Envy ... Lot of crime stems from envy... I want this sooo bad... you give in, and steal or lust or do something that will get the other person pised off, and they blow your head off.

    6. Anger... yes, the angry person who may have some other wrongs perpetrated on them also isn't in the right blowing the head off the person who pissed them off.... anyone going around attacking people and having frequent conflicts is likely to shorten their life expectancy.

    7. Pride ... excessive belief in one's own abilities, excessive vanity, is a good way to cross someone (or make promises you can't fulfil) and get your head blown off.


    Sure, you can dismiss all of the 'good stuff' that even without being religious is not a bad guide to follow, just because imperfect people get involved into religion and distort it (and get angry about it and see just the negatives), or you can approach it intelligently, accept the positives, and condemn and fight against the negatives.

    Why do I call it an intelligent approach... because in imperfect world, being surrounded by 7 bilion imperfect hoomans, this is as good as it's going to get. You're blaming people's VERY imperfect execution of good ideas, on the ideas themselves. That's a bit silly.

    Of course, in last couple hundred years since philosophy and social and natural sciences have gotten more developed, we have more options of saying on a straight path and keep ourselves out of trouble.

    However, if I could just say "you'll burn in hell" to someone in order to deter them from doing something stupid, instead of having to go through this long explanation every time, and it works, I'd do it in a second. It's just time management... I can convince more people to stay out of trouble, if I don't have to spend one-on-one hour with each of them... or more time with more stubborn or argumentative ones.

    Having said all that, being a major overanalyzer and into sciences etc myself, religion didn't quite cut it for me to 'stay on straight and narrow'. Scientific, psychological and philosophical approach worked better for me, to accept what in the end was the same thing that religion tries to teach people. This means, I can't completely dismiss it as useless and bad.

    Like I said, as long as imperfect hoomans have their hands in things, nothing will be perfect, or even close to it. Religion, government, psychology, sciences... You'll always have to wade through a piles of BS of various sizes. Whether you focus on the good stuff, or the bad stuff, is ultimately your own personal choice. If you keep dismissing evberything that has some of the bad in it, pretty soon you'll end up with nothing.... Which is another place that excessive pride will lead into.

    What bothers me about your posts in particular is that you are very dismissive of religions, without demonstrating that you understand them much. All I see you do is throw out various pop culture tidbits about how bad religion is that are on the level of an average beauty pageant contestant who wishes for 'whirled peas'.

  9. #186
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    Velocity: I'll come back when you're done pandering to the minority.
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  10. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "Couldn't the same arguments work any irrational belief that produces some positivity ?"

    I guess thats for each person to decide isnt it? I hope with luck that everything will turn out alright
    Hope with luck is a rational statement. You understand the possible desired outcome is most unlikely. However...I know with certainty that everything will turn out alright because I knelt before a man in a costume, ate a cracker, and said a few phrases in Latin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Also, at the risk of some of the believers jumping all over me, I'd like to point out that the 'belief in god or hell etc..' aren't really supposed to be taken literally.
    Demonstrate how you have the authority to claim this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Let's go over the 'deadly sins' for example, and secularize them, to explain they aren't really that full of shit...
    The only thing full of shit is that these are sins. These are secularized by default. There's no sky daddy that will punish you for these infractions. These are areas of ones life that can be a detriment in the case of over indulgence which is simply HIGH-JACKED by religious dogma.


    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Why do I call it an intelligent approach... because in imperfect world, being surrounded by 7 bilion imperfect hoomans, this is as good as it's going to get. You're blaming people's VERY imperfect execution of good ideas, on the ideas themselves. That's a bit silly.
    No, I'm blaming people's lust for power and control for taking good ideas and then claiming a monopoly on the source of it all. Giving themselves self appointed titles like Pastor, or Reverend and holding a pseudo authoritarian title of respect. All of which are based on scary fairy tales told the children when they are most vulnerable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    However, if I could just say "you'll burn in hell" to someone in order to deter them from doing something stupid, instead of having to go through this long explanation every time, and it works, I'd do it in a second.
    Then you're as bad as they are. You don't see the long term damage this creates.


    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    What bothers me about your posts in particular is that you are very dismissive of religions, without demonstrating that you understand them much. All I see you do is throw out various pop culture tidbits about how bad religion is that are on the level of an average beauty pageant contestant who wishes for 'whirled peas'.
    I was a fundamentalists Christian for a good 18 years of my life. I understand the long term fear and damage plenty.
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  11. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Ross View Post
    ....I was a fundamentalists Christian for a good 18 years of my life. I understand the long term fear and damage plenty....
    Ah, now that may explain why you are in such an over zealous anti-religion kicking back and lashing out mode now. Well, that's too bad. Maybe some day you'll get over it a bit more and look at things more rationally.

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    So was I, had family that were worse than that Evangelist in the OP's video. Saw something like Rugrats on T.V. and said that it was evil because of how grotesque the characters looked. I did at least get to go around from Church to church, hear different people's views. Then later in life meet people from other religions and see the difference, Muslim friends, Hindu friends, Jewish friends, all sorts.

    Saw simply how not all religions or people in them are as stereotypical as the Bible Belt fundamentalist Christian, even among Christians themselves. That not everyone literally views these "fairytales" or even as the literal word of god in their scripture (if their religion has such a thing). They share all sorts of views. Most though you do find involve something usually focused on the big topic in life...... what happens in death. Which is a topic you can't prove regardless. Prove what happens after death that you disappear into nothing rather than reincarnate, or go to some heaven etc etc. Then you'll probably get rid of general religion. Until that day you can view everyone and all religions as the same or something, but it's not that black and white either way.




    Though as to someone above saying the minority, don't know if that was targetted towards some comment like earlier in the thread that religious people are in the 'minority' but if it was. Not sure about the statistic's accuracy since it's a global scale but what I've seen around 80+% of the world is religious in some form or another. Some go into rational people like all who are religious are irrational or not logical, well a page back Tyson gives a statistic of 40% of Scientists are religious. It's not really that much a minority if any.

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  14. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    What bothers me about your posts in particular is that you are very dismissive of religions, without demonstrating that you understand them much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Ah, now that may explain why you are in such an over zealous anti-religion kicking back and lashing out mode now. Well, that's too bad. Maybe some day you'll get over it a bit more and look at things more rationally.
    Just like talking to a religious person. Regardless of which answer is given even though they are total opposites (no knowing the religion or knowing much of it) the conclusion is that there must be something wrong with me for my position. Rationality is what de-converted me. No longer am I scared of burning in Hell. No longer is the "white man" the devil. No longer will I pray for god to help improve my art. And no longer do I fear not appeasing this god so he won't miraculously strip my artistic skill away from me. Maybe someday you'll realize that religion is detrimental and uneccessary.
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  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFierce View Post
    Saw simply how not all religions or people in them are as stereotypical as the Bible Belt fundamentalist Christian, even among Christians themselves. That not everyone literally views these "fairytales" or even as the literal word of god in their scripture (if their religion has such a thing).
    Well then they are not Christians. Christianity (as well as other dogmatic religions) has core beliefs. As soon as you reject those core beliefs then you are not a Christian. Was Jesus the son of God A.) Yes (Christian) B.) No (Non-Christian), If you deny the existence of the Holy Spirit then irreparable damage has been done and the eternal fire of Hell surely awaits. Sampson being super strong like Hercules until he got a haircut is on par rationally with Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. No one holds hands at dinner and ponder over the 3 little pigs or Humptey Dumptey. These are the cherry pickers of the bible you talk about. They basically edit the text to suit their own needs which is fitting since Kings and Rulers have been doing that very same thing over the centuries.
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    Yes because through history Christianity has stayed to one specific group of beliefs and not branched off into subgroups at all......
    You can go into endless sects based on their own beliefs for Christianity and if you want to label them all that's fine.

    But once again many Christians realize the origin of the bible was from translated texts compiled ages ago by man and that hell it's often not even construed as true to the original scripture. You can call that Cherry picking just because you don't believe it all is straight from the mouth of god and literal but I don't. Hell if I remember correctly Presbyterians don't believe in the Bible literally, does it mean they aren't Christian, because I've met some of them too and they seem to call themselves "Christian".

    Religion is a set of beliefs, to pretend that you have to have every beliefs just to don a mainstream general title is silly. You could find try to find some denomination that fits your beliefs and use that title, or just call yourself other..... or hell go tell them to form their own as many have through history.


    Then that's just going into your view on Christianity not even about other religions, yet you seem to be grouping all religions in the same boat.

    Though once again pages back went into someones brief explanation of how the jewish faith reads their scripts which is hardly literal, and more personal. Is it cherry picking because they give their own meaning and interpretation to their scriptures? Not in my opinion.


    Not everyone's views has to be the cookie cutter mold this is how it is believe it, it's literal if you don't think so your not *insert religious title here*

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  19. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Medusa View Post
    Ok, at fist I though it was a clever dark joke, but now I'm just incredibly curious as to what religion had done to those kids seeing as elwell edited them away.
    Anyone care to briefly describe what it was? PM if it should be too gory or horrible in written form as well.
    Oh, it's not a big deal. Jason Ross posted an image of a dead kid who was the victim of the war in Iraq. His point was that if you lost your kid, you might become a suicide bomber without necessarily being particularly religious. Then someone else complained about the picture of the dead child. So I posted a few pics of living but maimed kids, victims of the Iraq war.

    It wasn't merely a dark joke - I experience a certain level of irritation at people who want to wage war and discuss war but do not wish to look at any of the actual results of war. Especially when it was their own government that caused the whole mess.

    But apparently the moderator wasn't amused, so you'll have to go Google up your own macabre pictures. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Ah, now that may explain why you are in such an over zealous anti-religion kicking back and lashing out mode now. Well, that's too bad. Maybe some day you'll get over it a bit more and look at things more rationally.
    I have seen this over and over with ex-fundies - when they lose their religion, they become just as zealous in their anti-religious crusade as they were when they still believed. The fundamentalist mindset doesn't go away, it just finds some new thing to be fundamentalist about.

    It is one reason why mainstream churches are often so opposed to fundamentalism: it is ultimately bad for religion, because it drives people away from it. (Interestingly, every time the fundies get dragged into court because they tried to force creationism into science classes, the main plaintiffs are not atheists but mainstream churches.)

    The problem isn't with religion so much as with fundamentalism.
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  22. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    I have seen this over and over with ex-fundies - when they lose their religion, they become just as zealous in their anti-religious crusade as they were when they still believed. The fundamentalist mindset doesn't go away, it just finds some new thing to be fundamentalist about.

    It is one reason why mainstream churches are often so opposed to fundamentalism: it is ultimately bad for religion, because it drives people away from it. (Interestingly, every time the fundies get dragged into court because they tried to force creationism into science classes, the main plaintiffs are not atheists but mainstream churches.)

    The problem isn't with religion so much as with fundamentalism.
    Yea, I'm not super familiar with fundamentalism, other then knowing that it's pretty extreme.... I've never known extremes to be a good thing.

    I can relate a little bit, I've been trapped growing up in a communist country, with all of it's extremes, and to this day, I've been known to react a bit on the strong side when that subject comes up. Not quite as strongly and illogically as Jason does with religion, but... while I tend to push myself to look at positives first in most things, and don't have a lot of trouble with looking for the good side of things, I do tend to lead with the negative when communism comes up.

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