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Thread: In God We Trust

  1. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Medusa View Post
    Are you really sure you want to stand on that side?
    Heh, the irony is that I am decidedly not on the side of religion. But you wouldn't always guess, reading my posts. :-)

    As I have said before, my main gripe isn't really with religion or anti-religion, but with the mythologization of history.

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  3. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    I guess it depends whether or not youve been convinced by people you respect that youre defending your home and your faith, maybe avenging your dead family and definitely going to be rewarded in the afterlife doesnt it? If you think only religious people are irrational youre being irrational.
    Some of the most irrational people I have ever met online were atheists, who, without consciously realizing it, seemed to be following this line of argument:

    I am an atheist.
    Atheism follows from the application of reason.
    Therefore I am rational.
    Therefore anything and everything I believe is rational.

    These types are more dangerous than the Taliban, I tell you.

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  5. #159
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    (somewhat) back on the original topic, someone called in to The Atheist Experience this week to talk about the documentary. Unfortunately the hosts didn't see it (and Mat wasn't on) but their thoughts on the caller's description of the doc last from 26:02 to about 29:45.

    Oh, and a good follow up to blog's above post, the Atheist Experience show on foolish atheists they did a few years back;



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  6. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    Some of the most irrational people I have ever met online were atheists, who, without consciously realizing it, seemed to be following this line of argument:

    I am an atheist.
    Atheism follows from the application of reason.
    Therefore I am rational.
    Therefore anything and everything I believe is rational.

    These types are more dangerous than the Taliban, I tell you.
    I common twist.
    Being Atheist does not make a person smart or rational.
    but. Smart rational people given the opportunity, are by and large atheist.

    And comparing arrogant atheist types to the Taliban is completely moot.
    To say they are more dangerous than the Taliban is unfounded, and actually quite a ludicrous statement. Do just a little research on the body count attributed to the Taliban around Pakistan and Iraq, see how they treat women, see how they teach their kids to hate people like you.

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  7. #161
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    warning depictions of death.

    "I'm going to go out on a limb and say that someone who straps a bomb to their chest and takes out a hospital doesn't have a strong foundation in critical thinking."
    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    I guess it depends whether or not youve been convinced by people you respect that youre defending your home and your faith, maybe avenging your dead family and definitely going to be rewarded in the afterlife doesnt it? If you think only religious people are irrational youre being irrational.
    Very well put. I tried to imagine scenarios in which I myself would suicide bomb whom I saw as the "enemy". The loss of my wife and son to an identifiable enemy would be all it would take. Google "dead Iraqi children". Is it so much of a stretch of the imagination to understand that the parents of these dead children would have so much grief and anguish to want to end their lives in such a way? It's not always as simple as "Oh they are just crazy".
    In God We Trust
    Suicide Attacks (wiki)are in no way isolated to Islam.

    Last edited by Jason Ross; January 16th, 2012 at 07:26 PM.
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  9. #162
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    Don't agree with the Taliban remark unless explained a bit more, in process of thought that is dangerous I guess if that's what you mean. Because it's the same issue as with religion when it gets to the level of Bible Belt lunatics. When you don't leave any space to say that your wrong that your logic is infallible, what you believe in is right and if others don't believe it then your foolish.

    That's going back to the conversation earlier in the thread about religions, picking and choosing their verses, rather than accepting blindly as a whole or religions that leave the interpretations it's meaning and how it applies to the person and not giving ultimatums.


    Smart rational people given the opportunity are by large atheist.
    Maybe as a whole but rationality isn't correlated with religious views.


    Hell Isaac Newton was very religious and he's considered one of the most genius men in history and most rational.

    Last edited by JFierce; January 16th, 2012 at 02:05 PM.
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  11. #163
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    The "Church" doing good things is like a pedofile with an ice cream truck. Sure he's touched a few children ruining their lives forever but hey some kids were not molested and got free ice cream. How awesome is that.

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  12. #164
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    Agh..could you please not put pictures of dead kids in this thread.

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  14. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Ross View Post
    The "Church" doing good things is like a pedofile with an ice cream truck. Sure he's touched a few children ruining their lives forever but hey some kids were not molested and got free ice cream. How awesome is that.
    The main problem with that argument is that pedophiles and all the other bad shit people do to each other happens outside of church, and connected to other institutions as well.

    As for parents who lost their children, my husband and I lost my stepson, his son two years ago (at 19 years old). Intense grief alone also doesn't make you go out and kill other people. My own home country had a war in the early 90's, and I lost friends I went to school with. Would that make it ok for me to go and kill others, whom I think may be responsible?

    I mean, look at other institutions.. police has bad cops, but we don't think of the entire institution terrible. You find arson among firefighters on occasion, but you don't find firefighters bad. There are 'angels of death' among doctors and nurses on occasion, but you don't consider them all bad. When it gets in hands of bad and corrupt people, anything can be bad, nasty, destructive, manipulative etc...

    I'm not religious, and really could care less if it existed or not... what does irk me is nonsense arguments used in an attempt to falsely vilify something or someone out of over zealousness. Doing that is not better then what some terrible people do in name of religion. You're going around acting a lot like the very people you're trying to condemn.

    You want to be pissy about that stuff happening, look in a mirror, it's us stupid hoomans doing this shit to each other. The best we can do is learn what it is in us that can lead us into these situations, and learn to stay away from them. Where we have most control, believe it or not is in our own stupid behaviors. If you think that's tough to guide and control... anything else is even harder.

    Religions of the world attempted to do some of this, before more refined social sciences have developed. Today we have more potions then religion, thankfully. But, just like anything, when it gets in hands of bad people, shit hits the fan.

    I don't understand why it's so hard for many people to understand this, and they keep misdirecting their anger to wrong places.

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  15. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    However, we do know that music notation was invented to solve a musical problem that specifically the church had, namely a huge number of religious chants that all had to be memorized. At least to the church fathers it was important that they should be sung "correctly." This is a problem folk musicians never had or cared much about.
    Everything has a cause, and that's just an incidental correlation. There's still no direct correlation which says religion=good inventions, just that good inventions were made during the time religion was the thing you did. If the same problem had arisen in another situation that wasn't religious we probably would have had the same invention. The problem isn't the things the church promoted. It's the things the church prohibited. It's the fact that the church gave itself authority on which things were good and which weren't, based on the fact that they claimed to be in contact with a higher power that all must obey.

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  16. #167
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    I guess I might call myself an Anthropomorphist because I tend to attach human feelings not only to animals but to inanimate objects as well. I finally decided to have love for everything indiscriminately, and the reason I feel this way is because I can't prove that I have a soul; or that the electricity going through my brain is anything more than a chemical reaction. I could be just as fundamentally soulless as a rock, so I choose to have compassion for the rock.

    How do I know that it isn't aware in some way that I can't understand? If I am to hope that other sentient beings believe that I have a reason to exist, I must try to show respect for the world around me, and that includes inanimate objects. For all I know, I might seem to be as bluntly crude and unaware as a rock to some highly advanced awareness, and it's possible that such a being would see no difference between the two.

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  17. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    "I'm going to go out on a limb and say that someone who straps a bomb to their chest and takes out a hospital doesn't have a strong foundation in critical thinking."

    I guess it depends whether or not youve been convinced by people you respect that youre defending your home and your faith, maybe avenging your dead family and definitely going to be rewarded in the afterlife doesnt it? If you think only religious people are irrational youre being irrational.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007...ardianreview27

    "Instead of it being an actual discussion it's really just a competition to see who can list the most pros or cons."

    That sounds like a fairly rational way of analysing a things costs and benifits...
    Religion is an irrational idea. Those who act on it are acting irrationally (irrational doesn't imply beneficial or harmful btw). Again, I'm faced with another post of "Well it's not the only irrational thing in the world." Which is beside the point entirely.

    And no, it's not a good way of analyzing history. Everything Monasteries did wasn't a purposeful command from their religion. Because people aren't that stupid, even religious people are autonomous. Yet having libraries of past knowledge is being attributed to their religion. It's kind of like saying that their religion saved them from plagues, when it was just their isolation.

    If someone who thought the world was flat opened a hospital that cured cancer and treated sick children for free, does that absolve flat-earth theory? No. Even if you want to say that being a flat-earther gave the person moral purpose.

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  18. #169
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    Just going to add I question if they're acting just on religion, or even irrationally on religion at all really.

    In all honesty from what I've read the general profile is most of the bombers are educated middle class people, many who have something previously wrong with themselves. Missing a limb, cancer, leprosy, or other serious illnesses etc. (not mental I should note) Then one characterization is that it's from the bottom up as in it's not organized by a large group but more so groups of people get together stuck in a groupthink situation and of course rationality starts to fleet in such a situation where they don't think about realistic alternatives. Then there's the idealism to suicide bombings in that it stems from big imbalances of power and is used to demoralize the civilians and governing leaders of the enemy. I mean if your going to die already, you think your doing something for your family, friends, and nation against these people oppressing you, that your going to make a difference. It's an odd rationality to the irrational thought.

    The religion to many is seen as just an overtone, that to top it off they're rewarded in the afterlife. Even though ironically it violates most of Islams tenets apparently which begs to question how much is actually religiously fueled.



    Author on most of the above summary was Robert Pape if I'm not mistaken, not an expert on the man, but it's not just Pape that believe religion in all reality didn't have that much to do with the bombings unlike what most people view it as just religious crazy poor people blowing themselves up.

    I can't put myself in their shoes though, to me, if I was already dying I'd rationally do the irrational. Hell there are stories of that left and right of people dying doing things they'd never do to help their loved ones or nation. Like old people who were already terminal or dying volunteering and cleaning up in Japan.



    Either way just throwing it out there in this discussion of attributing acts to religion/rationality and irrationality.

    Last edited by JFierce; January 16th, 2012 at 06:15 PM.
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