Christopher Hitchens Dead :( - Page 2
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Thread: Christopher Hitchens Dead :(

  1. #31
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    Oh. That's what the iron meant.

    "Three's so little room for error."--Elwell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Hinman View Post
    Oh. That's what the iron meant.
    yeah, had me confused for a sec too.

    i like your signature.

    i also like this thing kurt vonnegut had written on his tombstone:

    the only proof he needed for the existence of god was music

    In a way, the only proof for the existence of god i needed was hitchens, so yes, bless his soul, bless his soul, bless his soul.

    thank you for having lived mr hitchens

    Last edited by samthemule; December 19th, 2011 at 01:09 PM.
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    Before this turns into another thread all about Sam, here's one of Hitchens' last lengthy interviews, from BBC Newsnight, shown again last night over here in Blighty:



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    Missed Ironies So Far:

    The incorrect use of "prolific" in the OP, given how adamant Hitchens was about the quality of his English.

    "God speed to him" by Velocity.

    "Thank you for having lived, Mr. Hitchens" by SamTheGhostWhisperer

    And that Sam would latch on to "don't let anybody else do your thinking for you," when he is the one person around here who most needs help with his thinking.

    Sam, you really need to get some professional help. Honestly, bro.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Beeston View Post
    Peace be with you, and may Dawkins keep you safe.
    And may Darwin select you, naturally. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by samthemule View Post
    yes, including [...] all.

    peace
    I was initially severely disappointed reading this entire post.

    This is a thread about Christopher Hitchens and his death. And you've shat all over it. This is not the thread for your particular brand of shameless pseudo-intellectual masturbation.

    But having a thread about Christopher Hitchens develop into making an example of an idiot and finally locking it seems ... strangely apt and quite fitting.

    So, please, continue.

    Brendan Noeth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan N View Post
    I was initially severely disappointed reading this entire post.

    This is a thread about Christopher Hitchens and his death. And you've shat all over it. This is not the thread for your particular brand of shameless pseudo-intellectual masturbation.

    But having a thread about Christopher Hitchens develop into making an example of an idiot and finally locking it seems ... strangely apt and quite fitting.

    So, please, continue.
    sorry then.

    i guess i need to get out more and type less,
    i guess kev is right about me needing help.


    you are a little vicious, i can understand pain, frustration, lashing out, but will it help create the kind of world we want? so christopher is dead, another person you looked up to is gone, now what?

    Last edited by samthemule; December 19th, 2011 at 01:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aly Fell View Post
    Before this turns into another thread all about Sam,
    Too fucking late, as per usual.


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    ""God speed to him" by Velocity."

    tee hee busted.

    As an atheist in what I feel is a secular rationalist society (despite Dave's wierd comments about the UK last week) I sometimes feel Dawkins' and Hitchins' furious attacks on organised religion are a bit superfluous, because I forget that large elements of human civilization still actually literally believe in variations on the theme of a grouchy, beardy supernatural father figure who lives above space and hates gays.
    Its fucking astonishing to me. Graham Greene said he became a catholic because he liked the routine and the ritual, (imagine a debate between Hitch and Greene by the way...) and I expect many people share this simple truth about human happiness; routine and faith help you live longer, recover more quickly from illness, and admit to a gernerally greater sense of well-being. (You can see how a darwinian principles therefore might select for such people, especially when mankind was a scattered and feeble species) Do I think nice ladies who find spiritual nourishment (and human firendship) in the shared ideal of a kindly God need to be railed against? Nope. Do I find the sense of community people sharing a common faith enjoy something to be attacked? Again no.
    In fact, I find Hitch and Dawkins' increasingly shrill and bellicose hectoring of anyone with any spiritual belief with impunity rather irksome. Isnt that exactly the sort of deplorable, 'evil' bullying Hitchins rightly accused organised religious movements of being guilty of down the centuries? I would say yes. I dont approve of religiously motivated violence and cruelty, or policy decisions based on faith in the supernatural, obviously, but I also dont approve of picking on people because theyre not exactly like you.
    I liked Dawkins better when he was the laser-sharp mind behind The Blind Watchmaker and other brilliant expositions of science and maths than the relentless botherer of muddle-minded goddites, and Hitch when he was rightly holding up the crimes of Henry Kissinger for public condemnation.
    The trouble is they both seem to continually confuse the behaviour of giant corrupt beauraucracies like the Catholic Church, or the of vast territorial quarrels of tribes of people united under socio-religious banners, for example the Hindu Muslim standoff accross the pakistan-indian border, with the moral purety of the original philosophies those organisations have hijacked. You know, would jesus like the marble and gold of the Vatican, etc?

    I do on the whole think Hitch fought the good fight though, particularly in an age that seems to be retreating from reason when such behaviour could be species-lethal, and Ill miss him. At least he's in heaven now. So it goes.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 19th, 2011 at 08:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Missed Ironies So Far:

    The incorrect use of "prolific" in the OP, given how adamant Hitchens was about the quality of his English.
    Hope I didn't upset the ghost of Hitchens with this massive blunder, though I don't believe it's a complete error.
    As far as I know a quote can be regarded as prolific if it is saying a large amount, or has bearing that is greater than the sum of its parts. Something inspiring, in other words.


    ALy fell: good to see he's received some sort of mention or focus. I havn't been watching TV the last few days so I don't know if they've said anymore about him.

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    I have only watched a few videos of Hitchens, mostly pertaining to Christianity. I did enjoy this appearance on Real Time:




    But I don't know much about him other than from snippets like that.

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    I've been watching more of him lately. I don't agree with everything he says, but he is fun to listen to.







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    I doubt anyone is still an atheist after they die.

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    Nah, to be an atheist you need cognition. So I guess that means one can remain religious past death.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    Zing!

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    I like to think there is something mysterious with death. This assumption came entirely out of learning about DMT in the brain. How it seems to function like a physically built in mechanism to deliver the "judgement day" experience when you die.
    but I like to keep the feeling towards it mysterious and not subscribe to anyone that claim to have a definitive answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    In fact, I find Hitch and Dawkins' increasingly shrill and bellicose hectoring of anyone with any spiritual belief with impunity rather irksome. Isnt that exactly the sort of deplorable, 'evil' bullying Hitchins rightly accused organised religious movements of being guilty of down the centuries? I would say yes. I dont approve of religiously motivated violence and cruelty, or policy decisions based on faith in the supernatural, obviously, but I also dont approve of picking on people because theyre not exactly like you.
    Yes, I think much of the hysteria of the "new atheists" is probably counterproductive, and a bit akin to accusing everyone who enjoys a glass of wine of alcoholism. One should not conflate all spiritual beliefs with fundamentalism, which is the real problem.

    It does seem as if Dawkins has mellowed a bit, though. After "The God Delusion," he was often attacked more vehemently by his fellow atheists than by the religious. Perhaps it gave him pause for thought.

    I do agree in principle on some of what he said though: it is a problem that even in much of western society today, atheists have to keep their non-belief to themselves or find themselves pariahs, and that religions do get away with talking the sort of nonsense no one else would ever get away with.

    Still, on the whole, if you want religion to disappear, it might be a better tactic to just ignore it to death, as they have done with remarkable success in Western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Sykes View Post
    I doubt anyone is still an atheist after they die.

    Now did I, or did I not, predict this? :-)

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    "Yes, I think much of the hysteria of the "new atheists" is probably counterproductive, and a bit akin to accusing everyone who enjoys a glass of wine of alcoholism. One should not conflate all spiritual beliefs with fundamentalism, which is the real problem."

    I agree, and you also raise another irony for Kev's list; the misuse of the word 'fundamentalism'. Its associated these days with extreme, often violent religiously motivated acts, which have NOTHING to do with the fundamentals of the religions they supposedly are acting on behalf of.
    WHich is exactly my point about the confusion between the beautiful philosophy of compassion and love of the legendary Nazarene, made all the more amazing by its originating in a barbaric desert outpost, and the terrible acts commited in his name down the succeeding centuries.

    "Still, on the whole, if you want religion to disappear, it might be a better tactic to just ignore it to death, as they have done with remarkable success in Western Europe."

    I dont have a problem with religion or spirituality at all, I think life without it would be like life without music or fun. If my mum wants to believe her mum is happy in heaven with her dad, who am I to tell her shes delluded and wrong?
    Ive voted with my feet and have no specific religious beleifs, I find most of the big ones too limiting and boring to care about, but conversely resist the notion that life is strictly limited to the mundanity of the here and now, to struggling to pay rent or getting your car mended or whatever.
    Hitch himself admitted to softening when holding his baby in his arms, and thats how it should be.

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    I think deep down it's hard to admit that we don't have a soul... things not seen but known. Everyone expresses some sort of spirituality even if it's creativity through art or other forms of expression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    In fact, I find Hitch and Dawkins' increasingly shrill and bellicose hectoring of anyone with any spiritual belief with impunity rather irksome. Isnt that exactly the sort of deplorable, 'evil' bullying Hitchins rightly accused organised religious movements of being guilty of down the centuries? I would say yes.
    I'd say, "Not in the slightest." I remember when Jacob Zuma was lambasted in the media for claiming to have avoided AIDS by taking a shower or some-such shit. And rightfully so: regardless of whether the propagation of such a belief encourages hygiene, it is dangerous precisely because it is wrong.

    For anyone to say that there is an omnipotent and all-loving being watching over us and not be lambasted - or at least laughed at - is, frankly, worrisome.

    Religion has, for better or worse, and in part, seen us through the last 2000 years of our history. But it will not be religion that sees us through the next 2000 years.



    PS. I really like the word, "bellicose." I've made a note of it and will use it more in conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    I dont have a problem with religion or spirituality at all, I think life without it would be like life without music or fun. If my mum wants to believe her mum is happy in heaven with her dad, who am I to tell her shes delluded and wrong?
    Ive voted with my feet and have no specific religious beleifs, I find most of the big ones too limiting and boring to care about, but conversely resist the notion that life is strictly limited to the mundanity of the here and now, to struggling to pay rent or getting your car mended or whatever
    I have something of a love-hate relationship with institutions like the Catholic church. I love the traditions, the art and music, the rituals, the beautiful cathedrals, the often intense mysticism. I'm not too enthusiastic about the dogma.

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    ID in schools and scripture on public buildings are first world problems for sure. Considering that there are still religious groups that will kill people, groups of people, for nothing more than being part of a different club. So yeah, I get it. I'd much rather live in a country where there's always the threat of Mormons or Christians whining about being persecuted than live in a place where I'd get decapitated for saying I don't believe.

    However, what it comes down to is willful ignorance. Well, it's not even that. If someone chooses a lie, it's not my problem. The problem comes when one chooses the fantasy over the truth, for whatever justification, and demands respect for it from me. And then wants to sandbag all intellectual endeavors by equating being a person of faith with actually doing some work. Society in the US has publicly coddled non-truths too much. It's accepted. I don't want to live in a country where Ancient Aliens is considered a valid documentary.

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    I'm always impressed by how much he can keep in his head and recite at will, and in such a marvelous way. His political debates are also very interesting.



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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    I The problem comes when one chooses the fantasy over the truth, for whatever justification, and demands respect for it from me
    It is a dangerous thought though, probably the exact same thought that fundamentalist have to brand people as infidels for not believing in their truth. Something obvious to certain people is not to someone else. If we say science is the truth, a lot of the great physicists seems to be unsure what is the truth themselves. Personal quotes of Neil Bohr or Heisenberg mostly have to do with breaking down the rigid idea of reality, and I'm guessing this includes scientific materialism.

    The human side of universal truth is that we all want peace, love and self realization. That is the root of all spiritual systems.

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    "Not everything which can be counted counts, and not everything which counts can be counted".
    Einstein had this framed on his wall at Princeton.
    By the way;
    "There is an Omnipotent and All-loving Being watching over us"

    "Three's so little room for error."--Elwell
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    I dont think there is a god in this universe, at least not yet, because nothing we see requires his hand by way of explanation. We can say the universe is as it is because it is one of an infinite number in a greater multiverse. Nature seems to behave along self-consistent laws which we are making great progress understanding. Nowhere do we see the hand of a capricious, meddlesome God as described in the middle-east desert religions.

    "For anyone to say that there is an omnipotent and all-loving being watching over us and not be lambasted - or at least laughed at - is, frankly, worrisome."

    Nah, leave em be, so long as theyre happy and not shoving it down your throat, its fine.

    "Religion has, for better or worse, and in part, seen us through the last 2000 years of our history. But it will not be religion that sees us through the next 2000 years. "

    Considering how strongly I dislike evangelical Christians and fanatical Wasabbi Muslims its amusing to me to defend religion, but Id be amazed if some form of spirituality wasnt alive and well in the fantastically complex culture of 4000AD. Judaism has been around for 4000 years already and I doubt theyre going to just give it all up any time soon. Nor should they.

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 20th, 2011 at 03:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by enrigo View Post
    It is a dangerous thought though, probably the exact same thought that fundamentalist have to brand people as infidels for not believing in their truth. Something obvious to certain people is not to someone else. If we say science is the truth, a lot of the great physicists seems to be unsure what is the truth themselves. Personal quotes of Neil Bohr or Heisenberg mostly have to do with breaking down the rigid idea of reality, and I'm guessing this includes scientific materialism.
    Not really. One, I recognize people's rights to believe what they want. I just happen to have a hot reply button ready too. I don't think for a minute that a government or any institution should ban religion. So that's one difference between me and a fundamentalist who believes everyone falls under the domain of a god.

    Two, methodically searching for truth with regard for human fallibility is different from just believing in something because it feels good. This isn't me putting science on a pedestal and claiming it to be the perfect answer to every problem in the universe. Good thinking on the other hand is a good answer to a lot of problems. Like I wrote before, on a fundamental level, it's the decision to believe in something without reason. And unlike most religious apologists who assume humans are hardwired to be faithful, I say the opposite. I say we naturally form our actions around what we know. Religion is the product of wanting to know so bad that we pretend to know and call it a day.

    I think there's a huge difference between some guy on the street saying "we don't know" and someone who spends their lives exploring the secrets of the universe saying it. It's an entirely different context. It bums me out when people pull the "but a scientist said we don't know!" card. Yes, there are not answers to some questions. This is not the green light for steamrolling centuries of hard work with a funny feeling in our tummy though. You don't stop exploring because you find out there's still some distance to go.

    The human side of universal truth is that we all want peace, love and self realization. That is the root of all spiritual systems.
    Being non-violent, having affections for your fellow man and understanding yourself aren't qualities of being spiritual. Those are things that make a healthy human being. I think this is a good example of sticking spiritualism/religion/etc where it doesn't need to be. And the big three religions certainly are not religions of peace, love, and self-realization.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  48. #59
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    Considering how strongly I dislike evangelical Christians and fanatical Wasabbi Muslims its amusing to me to defend religion, but Id be amazed if some form of spirituality wasnt alive and well in the fantastically complex culture of 4000AD.
    Wasabi Muslims are hot!

    At least Icarus tried!


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    dah busted again
    cos of all the shouting they get a little hoarse

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; December 20th, 2011 at 03:52 PM.
    sb most art copied to page 1
    Weapons of Mass Creation 2011 ::: Add your favourites!
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