Join 500,000+ artists on ConceptArt.Org.
Its' free and it takes less than 10 seconds!
Hey pandawhipped its not personal
or anything, man and i am glad that
you moved on, that thread of you of watts
its awesome i can REALLY see advances
in your drawings and your webpage stuff
if only so many artist realize that:
TO DO GREAT MANGA you have to study
human figure at least and then make a
stilization or an interpretation of HUMAN
FIGURE, analize volume and form
artists that make MANGA studing reference
from another manga WILL HAVE A LIMITED
RANGE OF LEVEL of all the factors that
involve manga BUT this doesnt mean that
they will not be good, they will be limited
Studying ACADEMIC KNOWLEDGE will make
your artwork REACH higher parts or different
and creative things in your artwork because
you will know why shadows go like this,
why this color combination looks good, how
to rotate this mechanical design, etc.....
So this guys who dont want critics , phfff
i guess they study from manga reference
maybe their EGOS are larger than their
"artwork" just the MASTERS when they reach
a level they realize they know less and need
improvement i think this is the right attitude
for always getting better
and dont lose time making critics
to people who dont accept it, poor guys
they dont realize that they have sooooooo
many road to travel to become great artists
ONE has to be HUMBLE with our artworks,
even if you are a proffesional theres so many
talented people out there just take a peak
at this forum
Thanks for reading this, please continue
ohGr what do you think about all of this
My favorite ACADEMIC ARTISTS TO CHECK:
Sonoda Kenichi (more pop)
Saludos a todos
ROBOGABO SKETCHES in members section
Information____is not Knowledge
Knowledge_____is not Wisdom
Wisdom________is not Truth
Truth__________is not Beauty
Beauty________is not Love
Love__________is not Music
haha, you ever been to a fine arts' school show before? lots and lots of total rips.. not to mention wannabe pollacks, dalis, picassos, etc.... although rarely a wannabe sargent or rembrandt...Originally posted by sixBlade
but warhol didnt have millions of children copying his style amateurishly
Hmm..... my opinion is that cartoons and anime are very much an art form on their own, and I find that I disagree with ohGr that a cartoon character can be whipped out in a couple of seconds..... I actually tend to find cartooning to be at times more diffucult than drawing from life, because not only must you know how the pose would look if it was done in a realistic fashion, but you must also come up with a way that you must distort it in a way that is visually pleasing.....
And yes..... some immature anime "artists" might make claims that they don't need to learn anatomy, or shading, or composition..... but their attidudes are reflected by their work.
i agree that unrealistic styles are inferior to realistic styles, but you DO have to remember that not all manga&anime is the same! some mangas are actually drawn more anatomically correct than most "realistic" artists are capable of! The only reason we call these manga and not "realistic" is because of shading differences, but in the end thats a small part of the whole picture, and the rest is simply BETTER! (not in all, i know, but there are plenty)
to the butkissing part: the reason, why manga&anime are booming (ie having their asses kissed - selling millions), while all "realistic" western-style comics&cartoons has been losing importance for years, is because the creators of everything from superman to spawn to "the crow" are trying so hard to get their pictures so realistic (sometimes only: so complicated!), that they start fitting their story to their art, and end up forgetting some of the most important things, like STORY; (deep&interesting)CHARACTERS; WORLD etc...
the art is simply BLOCKING many western artists, and so the reason why these "japs" are getting so much praise is because they are getting the important things right...the art there is more of a helpalong to convey story etc, so it doesnt matter if it is (in most cases) inferior
Nikolai reiset noch immer, noch lange wird er reisen...doch ins Land der Vernunft findet er nimmer den Weg...
Criticizing Nikolais Crap
First off, I love good manga and anime. It captures something that other types of art don't have. I love realistic artwork, too. Both require the same platform of knowledge to be worth looking at.
The whole arguement can be settled down to two things. I mean, really! Here it is:
Either the artist is good at what they do and have a truely strong appeal (with characterization, technical aptitude, and good color theory, etc...)
They suck or need improvement!
And keep in mind that the majority of the people showering crappy knock-off manga or anime (don't confuse manga with anime--manga are japanese comics mainly done in lineart and screentone, and anime is the industry of japanese animation done in cel style for the most part. Both have more variations than ohGr may realize ) with praise are young teens or anime/manga zealots!
People who know good anime/manga (and those who hate or dislike those styles in general), don't usually comment on the shitty artwork that has flooded the internet in the last half decade or so. That just leaves the surfers 'looking' for exactly that type of art. Remember, there are millions and millions of the target audience on the net that love anything anime/manga.
To each his/her own, I always say.
P.S. badly done anime/manga art that never progresses pisses me off, too, but I don't pay them any mind. It just gives them that much more attention than they deserve.
anime is great, fine art is great, they each have their place. what are you going to do? make a cartoon movie or comic strip from finished oil paintings? lol id like to see you try doing a million of those.
"I may not say everything, but I paint everything" - Picasso.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...threadid=19485Originally posted by ohGr
Why I bring this up is because I don't find cartoons or anime nearly as impressive as realistic. I almost find anime an embarassment to art for its absurd styling. It never appears three dimensional nor does it even mirror the figure in any realistic fashion but it's considered flawless. Why is this technique so endorsed? When I visited the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, the first thing the game art & design instructor said was he was looking for artists who could draw realistic life drawing. This pleased me because he even said he was not looking for cartoons or anime. And I see why but I don't see why this forum supports anime concept art so much.
not all stylized concepts are bad, infact some lok better stylized then realistic... it all depends on what the concept is for. for instance concepts for a movies character would be best done as realistic as possible, while in some cases games could be done in the style the game is headed towards.
its ignorant to say that you dont find it repectable. Honestly if someone spends a long time on a piece and you blow it off because its stylized then your the one not being respectful. this is a lot of really good anime and other styled concepts out there that are just as good and any realistic piece.
a lot of instructors dont like anime because a lot of beginniers get stuck on drawing only dragonball z which really f**ks up your realistic drawing skills.
I think that realistic art is more respectable, because anime is copied by so many people now days. You can look at one person's anime drawing, and look at another and not know that 2 different people drew them. Its all the same! Plus, with anime, people buy those dumb books that promise to make you a better anime artist. Well, I know first hand what those books are like, their just an archive of different eyes, hairstyles and shapes of faces. So in order to make a character, you pick a face, then an eye, then a hairstyle, and then you have a character. Thats why I call anime, "Mr. Potato-Head Art", because all your doing is plugging in eyes, noses, and hair. Now, where is the respect in that? What kind of pride is in anime? There isn't much. Many young anime artists think that anime is BEST, there is nothing better, how stupid is that? Now, don't get wrong, there are some really good anime artists. They know what their doing. They know how to make original characters. THOSE anime artists are respectful, in my opinion.
Now, if you limit yourself to just anime, think about how many techniques and methods you are missing? Anime is a very shallow and encourages mindless copying. On the other hand, if you do realism and other areas of art, there are so many techniques, methods and media! You can use pastels, watercolor, oil paint, oil pastels, paint sticks, arcylics, etc... Now think about how many techniques there are in each of those? There is a lot. There is enough so that you can come up with your own style and have a unique technique that makes you reconized as an individual artist. Think again, how ignorant is it of you to limit yourself to one area of art, like anime, just because you see it on TV, games and movies? It would be like sitting in your closet for your whole life and not experiencing anything else and yet judging the outside world. Hell, you've got one life, you shouldn't limit yourself to one subject.
Drawing cartoons and anime is alright if you know the basic rules, like anatomy, basic drawing etc, because when you draw anime, your breaking the rules and the rules are meant' to be broken but only by the advanced (from Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain, if any reconizes it).
And if any of your anime artists (because I know there are a few out there in the forum), want to try out realistic art, go buy the book mentioned above. Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain. Its a great book.
Last edited by AnarchyAo2; June 16th, 2004 at 08:06 AM.
I understand your frustrations at the praise given to Anime work, but perhaps it comes from the fan base being so large, young, and loyal. Realistic work is not dissappearing by any means, and those who do it well can make you forget Anime... But it's apples and oranges.
I agree that those who have a prior knowledge of realistic drawing, make more convincing Anime, and stylization is one of the keys to the genre, much like the look of ink work to oil paintings, or for that matter comic books to graphic novel paintings.
When Anime is done well, you can see from a cell coloring the movement in it, while realism is that " photographic snapshot ", that moment in time of the Artist's mind. I put to you that doing it is not only hard, and time consuming, that is if it is done well, but that it can compare to the hours one puts into a painting. The end result is the same, accomplishment of a vision.
They taught comic book illustration when I was in college as an elective, but this was only offered after a first year of foundation life drawing... So there is something else going into the work besides copying a look... You really can tell the crap from the creme dela creme, because it shows. The figure will be sturdier, the attention to detail more ample, the facial expression will be less static. There are merits in everything is you look hard enough.
I think you would overcome some of your resentment, by taking a dissective approach and creating some Anime, Anime perhaps that might have your own flare shining through it... Sure this argument work the opposite way, and Anime artists should bone up on their anatomy (no pun intended)...
Japan added something to the collective when it created this artform, they took comicbooks one step further, without the budgets of Disney, and hopefully the praise it gets will transfer to classrooms someday...
I am a Character Designer from traditional US animation and I just wanted to say after reading some of these posts is that there is a lot more to the cartoony style than just whiping out drawings. animation does follow principles of proportion. While a character may have a nig head that just means that its 2 or 3 heads tall. Usually if one arm or leg is longer, shorter than normal the other arm leg is the same length. Whenever you see a cartoon done by someone who knows what they are doing there is always a great amount of thought that goes into the creation. The look of the character says a lot about a character and it takes a very skilled designer to be able to create a design that portrays the correct message.
While the japanese Anime style is not my favorate its important to study all artforms because it can give us inspiration. I love looking at video games, comic books, illustration and many other forms of art for my art.
there's NOTHING unrealistic about anime, the neck down .
even average to mediocre anime has figure and clothing drawing fairly accurately. i remember watching some card captor sakura (research purposes, really) and being like, hey, that's the styloid process, those ankle angles look really good, nice elbow placement, etc.
cartoons on the other hand are far more stylized. anatomy is generalized and simplified a whole lot more.
don't let the faces and bugged out eyes throw you off.
i personally think there's nothing like well done anime, nothing, it really is its own artform.
A few of you guys said that Anime/cartoons allowed you to express more and that realistic drawings required no imagination. I think that drawing realistically allows you to express more because you can show form. And about the no imagination thing, drawing realistically never meant only drawing things from life. I think concepts are more effective when they are drawn realistically because it is easier to understand, all the information is there and no guess work is involved. Some of you have argued that to draw anime really well takes a lot of skill, and although I don't exactly disagree that it takes skill, I highly doubt it takes as much as it would to render a realistic looking human in a dynamic pose. Cartoons certainly have their place, the only anime I dislike is the ones drawn by the dime a dozen preteens that are praised by their peers. It's not really that I'm jealous of them, what really bothers me is all the people who saturate boards and sites with pointless "I have no crit" posts for crappy work.
-Insert intelligent comment here-
wtf you talkin' bout? Anime is a wonderful art form and shouldn't be denied crits/comments because of your dislike for the style. I don't believe we should restrict ourselves or our art to only certain genres when creating from our imaginations or inspirations.
N & B
Totally agree with Gabo here. I don't really care either Manga or American or European or Disney or Dreamwork or whatever...If it can inspire my imagination, I would praise it. To those who ignore classical study, they destine to deadend. Doesn't matter where they come from.Originally Posted by gaboartpage
Whatever can inspire me and get me going...I will take it doesn't matter where or who or how.
BAD art is Bad art period.
A Masterpiece is a Masterpiece period.
Other than that is all the matter of preference.
Real or not real who is to judge?
Hemlet never exist, but he is more real than any of us and live thru century.
We are real, but do we or our existance/ persona live thruout eternity? No. (or we don't know yet for some.)
If it looks real, doesn't really mean it has life. Even if sometimes things doesn't look real, it has more life than you could imagine. Look at Ariel (Little Mermaid) for example, she is more real more alive than some other real human I have seen. Sargent can create life with simple shape and big block of color/value. Same different! Think deep, think hard, think like an artist. Like ShakeSpare, Homer, etc...Don't get stuck to only what's in front of you.
And Get your butts to life drawing session or study real art. LIFE IS BEHIND THOSE LINE OR PAINT YOU PUT DOWN, NOT THE LINE OR THE PAINT ITSELF.
Last edited by xia; July 8th, 2004 at 02:05 AM.
I think something that a lot of people forget is that art is about enjoyment and expression. Some people enjoy different things, and everyone has a different way of expressing themselves.
I look at some Anime series (first nitpick, i cant stand the blanket term "anime" applied to the stereotypical "japanese cartoon style." Anyone who has taken/speaks Japanese knows that "Anime" is like saying Cartoon in english. Same thing, no requirement for certain styles or anything, you could call bugs bunny "anime" (its a japanized word based on the english Animation, just like Konpyuuta=Computer)) that I enjoy and I recognize not only the skill and time it took, but the obvious love the creators have for their work. And so many of the shows or movies i enjoy, i enjoy not only for some of the artwork, but usually for the stories which are so different from those found in american movies or animation and never fail to get the mental juices flowing.
A few years ago I (like many fanboy/girls out there) wanted to draw "Anime." I found the stylistic forms fascinating and different and yearned to draw things just as 'cool.' (lets face it, there are characters that just exude coolness...)
i quickly discovered a fact that many out there have not...
Anime is not the only thing out there. Its not even the only 'cartoony' style out there. Just look around this forum to see what i mean. Many of the amazing artists here at CA have a slightly toony twist to their work.
every great artist out there started with what was real. Then just took the next step, or steps as the case may be. Dont just dismiss those that choose a more stylistic approach, if theyre good, chances are good that theyve done their time.
Now im going back to basics, im having to unlearn a lot of bad habits i picked up by unknowingly trying to skip the 'hard' stuff.
I guess my point is this. An appreciation for all forms of art is required. You dont have to -like- it (i cant stand the modernistic pseudo-schools that people seem to create every 2 seconds), but at least respect that it takes work. Even the 'simple anime'
exception to the respect rule, the $3million "red dot on white canvas" shit, that just pisses the hell out of me. Go learn to draw :mad:
I completly agree with ohGr, with realism you carry out so much more detail. With anime you dont get the effect of the details like you do with realism. Look at the atempt marvel made to bring in a larger audience with the marvel mangaverse. The character designs where such cliches, it was redicioulous. Plus when you draw anime style your not drawing in your style, its some elses that you decided to emulate.
oh yea... one more thing... take a look at GHOST IN THE SHELL : INNOCENCE that is probably the most bad ass cartoon reality there is.
LOTR, Halo, Heroes Sketchcards from Topps
Interesting discussion... It can really go both ways. Folks with bad artistic sensibility will praise a detailed realistic piece just as quickly as something slick and anime (or cartoony, or graphic, or whatever)
They're impressed that somebody took the time to draw every hair and eyelash and overlook the wretched proportions, composition and anatomy. Whereas with cartoons the time invested is less obvious due to economy of line, but every line has meaning and consideration in it, and that shows.
I guess it boils down to a matter of taste but I'm glad most folks on CA can appreciate and crit both kinds of art.
I certainly hope most CA folks can. At least, it seems that the good artists here can tell whether an individual piece is skillfully done or not, rather than stereotype on stylesOriginally Posted by artkitty
It all depeneds on your background. Alot of people at there on the net wont have had a formal training in fine art. So they won't know or understand the skill needed in the realastic paintings.
Anime and the whole oriental culture is very fashionable in western society at the moment, so for someone who has never done any art before, this will be the first style he/she will look at and have a go at. Also the anime style which is being streamed into western homes via TV and the like, is a very bland excuse for anime, so you cant really blame noobs for doing a crap job.
However I must agree with what is said about the C&C wasted on these attempts, especially when it is more of an apraisal. But we must stand firm, life is unfair, and there are unfortunately more wannabe anime artists than proper artists!! and the web forums are the places where they propagate.
hey, what happened to ohGr?
He got killed by cartoon characters XD
Originally Posted by ohGr
There is a problem with this " this one's better than the other"; anime and relistic art have different "goals"; they represent two cultures: oriental and european which differ in the perception on life, generated by too many objective reasons, and this is not the right place to talk about the history of culture, but maybe you can look deeper in art history...
It may sound like precious talk, but this "conflict" doesn't lead to any conclusion, and there won't be any progress.
I'd like to discuss about the influence of game and comics art on the real life. :trippy: :alien4: :alien4:
I didn't read all the posts on this thread, but I thought I'd add my thoughts.
I think you should realize that anime is ideally for animation. You're not going to find many 20 minute animations with artwork realistic and detailed as a Raphael piece.
though i mostly agree with what you posted i must make a remark here. I don't know how most ppl work but i assume they work based on real life stuff. Not actually copying it. (me i look at different sources, get a general idea in my head and start drawing from the mind). So i don't see the imagination-lessness.Originally Posted by Derlaine
I find this a strange discussion. Every style no mather which requires skill and lot's of practice to master. I'm pretty ok in the realistical area, but struggling to get something decent done when i have to make something cartoony. So that's what i'm working on now. What i don't like is the "i don't like it because it's.... attitude". Especially cuz i had it happen to me once. Got a PM on a forum from a mod saying i better leave with my realistic fanart cuz it was anime forum. Too bad for them i'm stubborn
So ohGr, if you think realistical art deserves more praise? fine... just personally start giving it more praise. And maybe the rest will follow.
Speaking from an animator's point of view, I totally agree. When you draw the same thing many, many times over, having the character or whatever be realistic is terrible. Getting all of those lines to end up in the exact same place on the body while the character moves around is one of the hardest things to do. But on the subject of realistic or cartoony, you have to realize, and I know that others have it many times before me, that without the knowledge of life drawing you can't have good looking simplistic styles. I was (am still being) taught that you can't learn anything from pulling it out of your head. You have to look a references, draw people from life (not just looking at models in a class room, but go out and sit somewhere in public, and just draw what you see). That is how you learn. With a true understanding of anatomy and proportions, then you will understand how to distort it and make it into a "cartoon" or "nonrealistic" picture. I hope I'm making sense.Originally Posted by jadedchron
The big deal made with anime is exactly what everone else has stated. Most people do start out drawing like that, I did. It's a very good starting place, but alot of people don't push themselves farther than that. Pitty. And on the subject of "realistic," I don't think that there should be any comparison. Most people (not all) tend to think of it as being highly detailed. This is not true either. I personalle prefer simplistic styles because they are easier on my eyes and give me a chance to look at the whole picture and then analyze it. Again, hope I'm making sense. A little too early in the morning for me.
On a realted not, Miyazaki, in my opinion, is one of the greastest animators around. He puts so much hard work and effort into his masterpieces. He, along with Don Bluth and Glen Keene, are in a whole different ballgame. With Japanese artwork, it's the same as American. Alot of time you find medicore things, and sometimes you find people who really excell at what they do. So they don't all belong in the same art class as eachother.
Here is a link to one of my friend's webpages. She started out anime like, but has opviously taken it to a much better level.
well i think good drawing is good drawing...
wether realistic or stylized or as u say ANime cartoony.. u really putting everything in black and white here...
which it can't be divided into anyways.
Put it this way good drawing is good drawing!
Most people who can draw really well, can draw realistic. And i think its tougher to draw good then it is to draw realistic.. cause u can always gettphoto reference but to draw good u don't need photo reference. u understand form and 3 dimensionality on a 2 d platform. creating the illusion of 3d from understanding the basic principles of form.
my 2 cents
I don't think you can just generalise Japanese art into the word "Anime".
Saying "I don't like Anime" is the same as saying "I hate movies". You know? It's a silly comment since there's bound to be one Anime/movie that you will enjoy. Not all anime is spikey haired Dragonball Z style characters.
Also, most Anime shows come from a Manga. If you compare the Manga to the Anime, you'll see that the drawings in the Manga are of much higher quality since the Anime studio obviously has a tougher deadline with animations and all...
I'm sure there's just as much bad "realistic" art as there is bad "Anime" art.