Neutrinooooooo!
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    Neutrinooooooo!

    Neutrino speed at CERN measured to be 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light!

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44629271.../#.TnzeR-zCbTo

    Something Michio Kaku wrote on traveling faster than light speed:
    http://bigthink.com/ideas/24863

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44629271.../#.TnzeR-zCbTo

    CERN looks for others to confirm results, particularly U.S. and Japan, but Japan is still recovering from their Earthquakes and tsunami.

    On the other hand, U.S. could have had their own collider significantly more powerful than the one in Geneva, Switzerland. For the least, U.S. has Fermilab, although its more than four times smaller than the one at CERN.

    In other news: Falling satellite makes U.S. a potential target. Would be cool to see one fall around my neighborhood, but not when I am outside of course.

    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/446323.../#.TnzhXezCbTo

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/23/us/us-nasa-satellite/

    Here is an article on space Junk by Michio Kaku:
    http://bigthink.com/blogs/dr-kakus-universe

    Last edited by Vay; September 24th, 2011 at 07:52 PM.
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    Good news: Something goes faster than the speed of light.
    Bad news: Does something move faster than a neutrino?

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    My AP physics professor went to work at CERN a decade ago and told me he was there working on experiments to detect faster than light phenomena.

    It seems that there is a lot of doubt felt by physicists under the radar about some aspects of Relativity, particularly in light of the experimental integrity of QM and Relativity's failure to fit with it. But there is a lot of resistance to shredding Einstein because he's such an excellent "spokesperson" for the theoretical physics and science in general and his work is so foundational to theoretical physics.

    This story could end up being a simple mistake. Or its earth shaking. (No pressure.)

    It would suck if they re-measured light and found that it was also sixty nanoseconds faster than previously measured. Because that might mean that time is actually accellerating.

    (This post has been cancelled due to religious reasons. That's what I read somewhere.)

    At least Icarus tried!


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    WOAH
    I really hope it wasn't a mistake, for the sake of a certain pompous guy I know..

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    I've done the math and recreated the results in my kitchen. The neutrino DOES move at the speed of light in local relational context, but apparently has an addiction to pork and beans, which often causes it to suddenly explosively fart on its journey. This causes the speed increase which exactly matches CERN's results.

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    "Ye canna change the laws of physics"

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    Last edited by Chris Bennett; September 24th, 2011 at 06:27 AM.
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    I've just had an email back from a friend of mine who is an I.T. wizard but majored in Physics and has an account with CERN which he follows extremely closely. I've got his permission to quote him so here it is in full:

    "Hi Chris,

    My initial thoughts were that they will find a discrepancy in the timing, after all, perfectly synchronising 2 clocks in different physical locations is not as easy as it sounds. The accuracy of the synchronisation is limited by the distance between the 2 sites and the speed of light. This should be fairly easy to take into account though with enough tests and checks. 60 nanoseconds is a large error.

    The other factors that aren't so easy to take into account are:

    Precisely where in the experiment at CERN the neutrinos are produced. Admittedly 60 nanoseconds is a huge amount of time at these speeds, equivalent to about 18 metres in the experiment. Of course, you can't detect the neutrinos twice as detecting them means absorbing them so there is still some uncertainty there.

    The amount of time it takes the detectors to register the neutrinos is also a major factor that is probably fairly difficult to precisely pin down, although with correct synchronisation of clocks at both sites I suppose there are easy tests to determine the minimum detection time. Plus, the detectors are so fast that this may not apply. The TSU (Timing Synchronisation Unit) at CERN is accurate to around a picosecond.

    The different rate at which time flows at the two sites should also be easy to take into account although looking at the gravity map of earth, the 2 sites are in a fairly stable region so the difference due to gravity will be very slight anyway. They're also at a similar latitude, so the difference in time flow due to speed of rotation should also be minimal.

    Also to consider is the fact that we seem to already have evidence that neutrinos don’t travel faster than light from astronomical observations of distant supernovae for example. The neutrinos from these events always arrive shortly after the X-rays and gamma rays (both of which are types of light of course).

    As the physicists who discovered this said themselves, the results are “crazy” and they’re looking for others to help analyse the data.

    One possibility is that it is confirmation of extra dimensions, and that the neutrinos are travelling through one or more extra dimensions on their way to the target thus effectively taking a shortcut. I'm not sure how this works out on large scales and how this would therefore affect that astronomical observations that appear to show neutrinos travel surprisingly close to the speed of light.

    I'd like to see the timings logs myself to see the actual delay between a change in beam intensity at LHC and the corresponding change in neutrino detection at Gran Sasso.

    My CERN account was blocked about a month ago and despite numerous requests they seemed unwilling to reinstate my access or tell me why it was blocked. I guess now the reason was to protect the secrecy of this announcement until they were ready, as my account did give me access to the logs for the experiment that discovered this, although it was something I had never looked at!

    The more I think about the possible errors, the more I realise that 60 nanoseconds error is huge, and should be very easy to account for. Interesting stuff!

    Andy Gethin"

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    haha quality thread title. and yeah interesting stuff

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    It's a well known fact that mothers work faster than the speed of light. Ever wondered how she got there before you? Well now you know.

    Chris, I hope they tagged the neutrinos to make sure they were the same ones. You can't tell them apart these days.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vay View Post
    Neutrino speed at CERN measured to be 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light!
    Speed of light is measured in meters per second, not in seconds. What they measured is neutrinos arriving about 1/40,000 earlier than they were expected to at the speed of light. And they measured it at 6 sigmas.

    So far the physicists say their reasoning looks legit, which means that now they'll be analyzing the hell out of it and one of the two is going to happen: 1) this is real and it is going to cause major upheaval for at least three well-established theories in physics, or 2) they'll find something that has an explanation within the existing theories, or some unaccounted-for "dirt" in the experiment. 2) is much, much, much, much, much, much, much more likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    Chris, I hope they tagged the neutrinos to make sure they were the same ones. You can't tell them apart these days.
    I'll let you into a secret Ms Spot.
    There's only ONE neutrino. Because it moves just that little faster than everything else it's able to fool us into thinking it's got lots of brothers and sisters.
    Just like those little sods that would spoil the school panoramic photo by running to the other end of line-up to appear twice.

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    @S.ketch: If the speed of light is indeed the universal constant, but this barrier can be broken, it means we can travel back in time. Traveling back in time was only theoretically confirmed before this experiment.
    @kev ferrera: I read something about a physicist being asked by the congress if the supercollider will find god, and the physicist said no, so the SC was cancelled. I don't know if it was true, but of course many other factors lead to the cancellation, but what I read said that the answer given by the physicist put the final nail in the coffin for the project. The financial reasons for cancelling it was absurd, they will spend so much on military, but not on a super collider. Another reason is that Russia is no longer a technological competition.
    @arenhaus: I know that, I just typed what the news said. 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light implies that it took the detected neutrino 60 nanoseconds less than the speed of light to traverse the Large Hadron Collider that is 730 kilometers long.
    @Chris bennett: So if the results are not in error and at the same time neutrinos indeed do travel slower than the speed of light. Then that proves the existence of hyperspatial dimensions. At first I also thought higher dimensions were responsible, but I didn't know how the Large Hadron Collider works, so I assumed if it did escape to a higher dimension there should be a detection of the neutrino's disappearance and reappearance (assuming that CERN's technology is advanced enough to detect tiny intervals of disappearance and reappearance)?

    Last edited by Vay; September 25th, 2011 at 07:58 PM.
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    Moral of the story: keep drawing until you can draw faster than a neutrino.

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    I've tried that but my fuckin' drawing keeps showing up the day before yesterday...

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    Well, OK, I'll blunder into an area in which I'm pretty much lost, having taken Engineering Physics years ago:

    It's my understanding that Gravity operates "instantaneously."

    Somehow, that would seem to be "faster than the speed of light" and/or neutrinos, as the case may be.

    So, anyone smart enough to fill me in on the speed of gravity?

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    I'm probably phrasing this wrong, but there is no speed of gravity. Gravity is the mutual attraction of two or more masses. Unless you're not Catholic...then it's the mutual attraction of two or more church services of any other denomination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Well, OK, I'll blunder into an area in which I'm pretty much lost, having taken Engineering Physics years ago:

    It's my understanding that Gravity operates "instantaneously."

    Somehow, that would seem to be "faster than the speed of light" and/or neutrinos, as the case may be.

    So, anyone smart enough to fill me in on the speed of gravity?
    Einstein's theory of General Relativity tells us that gravity is not instantaneous. The instantaneous notion of gravity comes from Sir Isaac Newton, where gravity is inversely proportional to distance, and proportional to mass (G*m1*m2/d^2). Inverse operation, for those artists familiar with the fall off effect of light, is the same for the force of gravity, in that it gets weaker the farther a body has to exert its gravity. This equation implies that gravity acts instantaneously.

    Back to Einstein's theory, Einstein tells us that masses cause a curve in space, and the curve in space is the cause of gravity. He also formulated E=mc^2, which implies that gravity acts at light speed. The more massive the object, the bigger the curve. If an object is massive enough, it can create a black hole (a very deep curvature), that sucks everything in. Gravity on a curved fabric acts like a flexible plastic wrap tightly sealed over a bowl. You push down on the plastic wrap, and something placed in the proximity will roll towards the depression; however, if the the curve of gravity or the object creating the curve is to disappear, then any body previously attracted to it will not instantaneously fly off. Instead, gravity acts like a a drop of water on a pond. When a drop of water falls on a pond, the pond creates ripples, and these ripples would represent the effect of gravity after the sudden disappearance of the object. These ripples take time to traverse to any orbiting body around it. So if our sun instantly disappeared, our Earth will still revolve around the spot where used to be our sun until the "ripples of disappearance" (like ripples on a pond) reaches Earth and affects it, so then Earth will fly off into outer space.

    Last edited by Vay; September 25th, 2011 at 02:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    I'm probably phrasing this wrong, but there is no speed of gravity. Gravity is the mutual attraction of two or more masses. Unless you're not Catholic...then it's the mutual attraction of two or more church services of any other denomination.
    See, that's what just freaks me out!

    Whether it's the Moon and the Earth, or the Earth and something 8 zillion light years away-- gravitational attraction just is!

    (Along with a few Catholic girls I did some stuff with that the Pope probably would not approve of. . .)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vay View Post
    Einsteins theory of General Relativity tells us that gravity is not instantaneous. The instantaneous notion of gravity comes from Sir Isaac Newton, where gravity is inversely proportional to distance, and proportional to mass (G*m1*m2/d^2). Inverse operation, for those artists familiar with the fall off of light, is the same for the force of gravity, in that it gets weaker the farther a body has to exert its gravity.

    Anyway, Einstein tells us that gravity causes a curve in space, and the curve in space is the cause of gravity. The more massive the object, the bigger the curve. If an object is massive enough, it can create a black hole, that sucks everything in. Gravity on a curved fabric acts like a flexible plastic wrap tightly sealed over a bowl. You push down on the plastic wrap, and something placed in the proximity will roll towards the depression; however, if the the curve of gravity or the object creating the curve is to disappear, then any body previously attracted to it will not instantaneously fly off. Instead, it acts like a a drop of water on a pond. When a drop of water falls on a pond, the pond creates ripples, and these ripples would represent the effect of gravity after the sudden its disappearance. These ripples take time to traverse to any orbiting body around it. So if our sun instantly disappeared, our Earth will still revolve until the "ripples of disappearance" reaches Earth and affects it, so then Earth will fly off into outer space.
    Yes, but at what speed would the Earth fly off!

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    Re: Time travel

    Going FTL doesn't automatically break causality. It's just that when you go FTL there's a chance that from two reference points, events may not happen in the same order. So from CERN's point of view, everything is normal. From the neutrino's point of view, It arrives before it left. Or from CERN's reference point, the neutrino is detected before it's emitted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Yes, but at what speed would the Earth fly off!
    The same speed when Earth revolved around the sun just before the "ripples of disappearance" reaches Earth. 9.389*10^5 Km is the length of the orbit, and 365 days is the time, so at 9.389*10^5 Km/ 365 days is the speed. This is just an approximate calculation. The simplified version is 29.8 Km per second or 18.5 miles per second, faster than a speeding bullet. Because we live relative to Earth, we don't feel its motion. After Earth flies off, it will accelerate towards the next massive body. Since the effect of gravity is inverse by distance, so the effect of gravity never cancels out. You can be at one end of the universe and a star can be on the other end, the star will still have gravity over you, but the gravitational force of that star on you is so very tiny because of great distance and its inverse proportionality to the force of gravity. So our solar system, after our sun disappears, will accelerate towards the next massive star even if it is extremely far away, slowly getting faster and faster as the distance closes between the next closest star (that exerts the most gravity) and what remains of our solar system.

    However, you read on the news that our universe is expanding instead of contracting. Why is our universe not contracting due to gravity? The answer is dark energy, which I don't know too much about.

    EDIT:

    The last page of my physics text book talks about dark energy. I said in a previously that dark energy caused the expansion of our universe, and the reason why is because it seems dark energy is the opposite of gravity. That makes a lot of sense, since our universe is not contracting due to gravity. Gravity causes a curve in space-time, while the curve presented by dark energy is the opposite of this gravity curve. Gravity comes from matter and dark energy comes from the vacuum.

    This creates more conflict with Sir Isaac Newton's theory of gravity, and at the same time satisfies the "cosmological constant" of Einstein's work. Einstein didn't know what this cosmological constant really was, he put it in to balance out his equations, and somehow he got it right, his cosmological constant is dark energy. Another intuitive speculation.

    Last edited by Vay; September 25th, 2011 at 11:06 PM.
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    Not to just mess with you, but do you have a source for this?

    (I don't doubt you, but I'm trying to get my head around the idea of gravitational attraction and/or its sudden absence!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Not to just mess with you, but do you have a source for this?

    (I don't doubt you, but I'm trying to get my head around the idea of gravitational attraction and/or its sudden absence!)
    My physics text book, Michio Kaku's Physics of the Impossible and Hyperspace, and other stuff I read on the news. Michio Kaku is a theoretical physicist working on the String Theory. The String theory is the current most prominent candidate, as of now, for the unified field theory; a theory that makes symmetrical the electromagnetic force, gravity, and weak and strong nuclear force. String theory had its root from the Kaluza-Klein theory. Both theories basically try to combine the forces of our universe with hyperspatial dimensions (imagine symmetry relations in 2 dimensions, then 3 dimensions, all the way to 5+ dimensions). The higher dimensions are very small, that we cannot detect. Imagine someone trying to walk on a string that is one atom thick, we will have a hard time seeing it and even more so standing on it, and it seems to us that the string is 1 dimensional. To a being that is smaller than an atom on the other hand (for the sake of this example), it can see the string in all three dimensions. The reason for the string theory is because we want an expression not very long, that can govern all of the forces of our universe.

    With the help of the Large Hardon Collider, it can proof the reality of the String Theory. When Newton formulated his law of gravitation, it brought us into space and the moon. When Einstein tried to formulate general relativity, he got the celebrated equation E=mc^2, which gave us nuclear power. Higher dimensions imply time travel and multiverse theory. But due to poor vision and knowledge, leading to the lack of funding for science as did in 1993 when the US congress cancelled the supercollider, we may push back the scientific advancement of man-kind and inch us ever closer to some form of inevitable disaster, which we possibly already have for delaying the a collider.

    Speaking of scientific advancement, as far as evolution is concerned, science is the next step after the cave. It is the will of nature that a species becomes the most dominant (survival of the fittest), unless all lives are wiped out by some phenomenon, or that life never existed in the first place. Just like how a star naturally becomes so massive that it sucks everything in, we in turn suck up all planetary resources and destroy ecosystems, but that is all natural. Even more so that our population is exponentially growing, so we better terraform mars quickly.

    Russian astro-physicist by the name of Nikolai Kardashev classified intelligent life by 3 types of civilizations:

    Type 1: This civilization harnesses all of the power of their home planet, and no natural disaster on their home planet can destroy them.
    Type 2: This civilization can attain all of the power from their local star or solar system. This civilization and beyond are immortal.
    Type 3: This civilization has galactic control.

    These 3 types of civilization are the type of civilization we look for in an alien life form when we look from our observatories. These 3 types of civilization are the most prominent and easy to detect, than let's say a bacteria life form on some life sustaining planet.

    Currently, we are a type 0 civilization. We suffer from Earthquakes, tsunamis, and potential extraterrestrial disasters such as solar flares and meteors. This is the reason why I am changing to physics major-survival of the fittest on a grand new scale, and I wish to contribute by theoretical work.

    On a short note: You don't need mathematics to understand how the reality works. In fact, Einstein had the understanding of how general relativity works before he even developed the mathematics for it, for the mathematics, he consulted the works of mathematician Georg Bernhard Riemann. In a sense, Einstein just woke up one day, speculated, and had a hunch what he thought was right. This requires accurate creative vision, which is the mass filtering of thoughts. But it is still important to have certain mathematical proficiencies.

    Last edited by Vay; September 25th, 2011 at 01:54 AM.
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    Ahh! My over fixation with Newtonian Mechanics stands corrected.

    Here's a site that reflects what your sayin': http://scienceblogs.com/startswithab...of_gravity.php

    Thanks for indulging me!

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    CERN: we opened the test data to public.

    Public: Did you check the stopwatch? Time travel is possible!
    OMG OMG this is so exciting! Did you check the right neutrino? I
    told you so! My teacher says it’s impossible. I studied
    biology and I say it’s because of the gravitation of the light mass.
    Woa this is soooo awesome, this changes everything!!!!111
    So now we could send the neutrinos to other galaxies and
    explore the universe. No offense but I think that Einstein was
    more clever than you. How can a flashlight shine 450 kilometer?
    Did you check the sensor? Did you clean the lenses? My theory
    is that the neutrino may have collided with the light particle and
    won the race. I think the light was faster so it traveled back in
    time and that for reached the destination later.
    Not sure if CERN is right, I first need to check something in my
    old schoolbook but I think I am right. 40 nanoseconds is nothing,
    light can travel light YEARS. Of course I know, a friend of a friend
    of mine studied physics. It’s the rotation of the earth that that
    affected the results because the light has no traction but the
    earth rotated in the other direction.

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    The gist of your point is pretty fair one RANDIS. But I think you're perhaps missing the tone of most of the posts a little: Reasonable, layman informed, doubt, speculation and wonder incited by the best of motives. Most of the guys posting aren't members of the tinfoil umbrella brigade after all. Give us a little slack in our enthusiasm.

    Or maybe I've got the tone or your post wrong?

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    ah, i forgot to mention that...

    I was not referring to any of the comments in this thread, i merely tried to summarize the funny tone of the comments you get to read in the linked sites and some others sites and blogs who reported the news, there are literally thousands of comments and some really wild theories

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    Well, there actually is a bunch of confused statements on this thread.

    The great issue is that, according to E=MC™, any particle with any mass will become infinitely heavy when moving at the speed of light. Thus photons are able to move at the speed of light because they have no mass.

    But if something moves faster than the speed of light and is thought to have mass, like the Neutrino... then that poses serious questions about the whole theoretical framework of particle physics.

    If this result turns out to be legit, it also may mean that our inability to pinpoint the mass of the neutrino was because it had a negative mass. And if it has a negative mass, or a mass that fluctuates between positive and negative, say, this will have a profound effect on cosmology because it is assumed that neutrino mass is the very thing that determines whether the universe is accelerating apart, mere drifting apart, or slowing to an eventual stop and then a retraction.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Well, there actually is a bunch of confused statements on this thread.

    The great issue is that, according to E=MC™,
    No no no E=MC hammer

    but seriously photons have no rest mass

    http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...y/SR/mass.html

    Not that there's a point being specific on this forum. Someone here was convinced that crows could communicated the information of human faces to other crows enabling them to identify strangers. And despite a sophisticated language we need fucking police identity kits or caricature artists? More like someone misremembered something off Wikipedia ...

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