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    Question You don't need to know how to draw?

    I keep seeing several animators state you don't need to know how to draw in order to animate. This always baffles me. How is that possible? I know drawing is a skill that can be developed, but doesn't talent and the ability to draw count for anything when it comes to animating? I can't imagine any animator not knowing how to draw. I mean, essentially, animation is just a compilation of drawings. If someone couldn't draw for their life and wanted to go into animation, I'd imagine their films ending up as scribbly lines and terribly dis-proportioned figures.

    In my opinion, I think having a knowledge of art and design and being able to actually execute that knowledge is a really crucial part of being an animator, but I keep reading the contrary. Am I crazy? What do you guys think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Splendoodle View Post
    I keep seeing several animators state you don't need to know how to draw in order to animate. This always baffles me. How is that possible? I know drawing is a skill that can be developed, but doesn't talent and the ability to draw count for anything when it comes to animating? I can't imagine any animator not knowing how to draw. I mean, essentially, animation is just a compilation of drawings. If someone couldn't draw for their life and wanted to go into animation, I'd imagine their films ending up as scribbly lines and terribly dis-proportioned figures.

    In my opinion, I think having a knowledge of art and design and being able to actually execute that knowledge is a really crucial part of being an animator, but I keep reading the contrary. Am I crazy? What do you guys think?
    3D does not require drawing ability.

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    Where on earth are you hearing that? Cause that's definitely not what the nine old men or Richard Williams would say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    3D does not require drawing ability.
    Theoretically, maybe... but a huge part of drawing is knowing how things look, and that is just as important in 3D. Plus I'd hate to see the result if someone who couldn't draw tried taking to ZBrush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    3D does not require drawing ability.
    True, but shouldn't 3D animators still know the fundamentals of 2D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    Where on earth are you hearing that? Cause that's definitely not what the nine old men or Richard Williams would say.
    Thank you for reaffirming what I originally thought!

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    3D not requiring the ability to draw? Well, I guess as long as you understand perspective, form, line, shape, space, and light, then no, you don't have to know how to draw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    Where on earth are you hearing that? Cause that's definitely not what the nine old men or Richard Williams would say.
    From a 3D Animator who works at Dreamworks.

    As for the nine old men and Richard Williams, their words were spoken before 3D existed.

    Ease in and Ease out, timing, silhouette, squash and stretch, timing - the animation principles can be learned and applied without ever drawing. It's just done through posing a rig instead. People get caught up in the idea that animators need to learn how to draw first because that's how many animators learned their craft historically. As 3D has become more prevalent, people can be trained directly in that medium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie G View Post
    Drawing is a crucial part of animating, particularly if you're doing the traditional animation.

    When animating you'll be called upon to draw your character from all different angles, if nothing else.

    On the other hand you can get some really great animation with less... Disney-esque animation. Gerald McBoing-Boing is really neat, but has some more unrealistic movements and drawings. Reci, Reci, Reci/Words, words, words also does some really neat things with more crude animation. Then you can also look into computer and stop-action aniamtion. While it still helps to have an idea of how to draw then, it's more the concepts.
    Disney drawings aren't the only standard of well drawn animation, I'd say. Like you said with the unrealistic movements and drawings, it seems like that's just the artist's style. They still probably have a good understanding of what makes drawings "good", they're just executing that in their own, unique way.

    Your statement on the concept of the animation reminded me of something else I've heard: Concepts aren't as important as the actual animation. I totally disagree; I think both are equally important. But that doesn't seem to be the widespread belief from what I've heard.

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    Saying that, a bit of drawing skill has definitely helped my 3D animated work. Depending on your way of thinking; it really helps give you an idea on how to imply weight and compose forms based on fluid movements etc.

    I have a friend who's an excellent animator that admits he's not a confident nor frequent illustrator, and thinks through 3D animating. I'm the other way around, I get a much better personal understanding on what is to be achieved by drawing poses and keys quickly first, then spend less time fiddling around with the 3D stuff like my friend does. it takes up a very similar amount of time, with similar results, it's just how you prefer to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    From a 3D Animator who works at Dreamworks.

    As for the nine old men and Richard Williams, their words were spoken before 3D existed.

    Ease in and Ease out, timing, silhouette, squash and stretch, timing - the animation principles can be learned and applied without ever drawing. It's just done through posing a rig instead. People get caught up in the idea that animators need to learn how to draw first because that's how many animators learned their craft historically. As 3D has become more prevalent, people can be trained directly in that medium.
    Okay, so you know how to animate. The techniques are different than those of drawing - point taken. So my question is what's your subject matter? Unless you're using photographs, you're probably going to need to know how to draw people, animals, and all the objects we see in the world around us. Or, maybe you're using CGI - which, I dunno jack about that, but you probably still have to create the images somehow. My point is that even if you're not elite when it comes to drawing, some degree of skill in drawing will probably help you out.

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    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

    The usual staples for anatomy:
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitnrun View Post
    Okay, so you know how to animate. The techniques are different than those of drawing - point taken. So my question is what's your subject matter? Unless you're using photographs, you're probably going to need to know how to draw people, animals, and all the objects we see in the world around us. Or, maybe you're using CGI - which, I dunno jack about that, but you probably still have to create the images somehow. My point is that even if you're not elite when it comes to drawing, some degree of skill in drawing will probably help you out.
    I don't understand the question about my subject matter and why it applies to this conversation?

    As for CGI, there are people who specialize in modeling, texturing, and rigging; so an animator will often have the finished character to animate with.

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    A 3D animator (not designer, modeler, texturerer, rigger, etc) doesn't need to know how to draw (or model, or texture, or rig), any more than a puppeteer needs to know how to sculpt, sew, etc. They need to know how to create an effective performance for their character. Which isn't to say that somebody who's really good won't know how to do those things, because they will be interested in all aspects of their craft, but, strictly speaking, it's not a requirement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    I don't understand the question about my subject matter and why it applies to this conversation?
    I think it's because in your first post you simply mentioned a lack of drawing needed in "3D" ['in general', as I read it] as opposed to specifically "animating in 3D". Possibly just a small confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlightedArt View Post
    I think it's because in your first post you simply mentioned a lack of drawing needed in "3D" ['in general', as I read it] as opposed to specifically "animating in 3D". Possibly just a small confusion.
    Ahhh. I figured since the conversation was about animating, I didn't need to respecify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liffey View Post
    Plus I'd hate to see the result if someone who couldn't draw tried taking to ZBrush.
    I'd be more interested in whether they knew how to sculpt.

    Anyway, animation does not equal 2D animation. You could easily make a claymation film without drawing a single line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liffey View Post
    Plus I'd hate to see the result if someone who couldn't draw tried taking to ZBrush.
    I know of several individuals whose 2D work is sub-par, while their 3d is near or at professional level. Same goes for animators. Drawing skills definitely apply in both arenas, but they are not dealbreakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie G View Post
    The problem is that many of the elements found in drawing (at least drawing for animation) are important for giving a good performance. You need to know how to get a strong silhouette, interesting contrast, directing the eye/focus, that sort of thing.

    It is possible to learn those things without drawing, but they're also major elements of drawing.
    They are elements of animation that are separate from drawing - it's just that most people learn to apply them by drawing.

    If you wanted to talk about drawing for animation, the unique struggle there would be draftsmanship, consistency, and maintaining volume. (Dear lord, maintaining volume...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie G View Post
    An effective illustration probably uses most of the same elements though, particularly the strong silhouette and directing the eye. Both of those are more artistic choices that the computer doesn't help with much.

    On the other hand something like perspective, if you're doing it on a computer you're pretty set! It's probably even a bit better at volume than drawing by hand too.

    Edit: And yes, maintaining volume is kicking my butt - I'm working on a brick drop! D:
    I'm not saying the computer does it for you. What I'm trying to say is that those artistic decisions/sensitivity can be learned outside of drawing.

    Just wait, it gets harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie G View Post
    I'd agree, but I guess I consider them elements that make a drawing good too so if you draw and are able to use them, your drawing is still going be better than if you didn't. Like if your anatomy is totally whack, but you still have good silhouette, it's still a better drawing than if that element wasn't there. So if you know those elements your drawings will be better whether you learned the animation on a computer or pencil or paper. (That makes sense, right?)

    It's the perspective and the twist of it!
    But we're not talking about drawing, we're talking about animation. Which can be done without ever drawing a line.

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    Hrm, interesting split here.

    I fall into the "animators ought to draw" camp, and this is how I see it:

    If we draw a parallel to mathematics, in an abstract sense one may work with the principles of Calculus without making use or even having an understanding of Arithmetic. Understanding Calculus doesn't truly require Arithmetic. One may realize the relationship between a set distance, the difference in time one travels that distance with different velocities, and how a altering the rate at which you change that speed has an effect on your journey... all without plugging in a single number.

    However, Calculus is so much easier to handle with an understanding of Arithmetic that I don't at all see how it's practical to do otherwise.

    Similarly, Animation does not literally require one to be competent at Drawing (or a similar skill, such as Sculpture for stop-motion), but why would you make it that much more difficult for yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie G View Post
    The problem is that many of the elements found in drawing (at least drawing for animation) are important for giving a good performance. You need to know how to get a strong silhouette, interesting contrast, directing the eye/focus, that sort of thing.

    It is possible to learn those things without drawing, but they're also major elements of drawing.
    These principles do indeed translate across different mediums and are not just principles of drawing, but are in part the fundamentals of composition/ figurative narration, and visual orchestration. You can proof and storyboard an animation with still photography... the 12 principles aren't limited to any given medium either.

    Im one of those people who personally thinks all artist should explore every medium at hand but that's just my own personal moral, but I also understand that making a line isn't just connecting 2 points in 2 dimensions.

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    @ Rabbit - When you said 3D, my brain went to "2D animation that looks 3D". Also I think I should've said "content" as opposed to "subject matter". If you're making your own content for 2D animation, you're going for a 3D look (2D looking 3D - think still lives, trompe l'oile paintings, etc. The illusion of Depth on a 2D surface - this is what I thought you meant) then you'd need to know how to draw. Then again, you said you'd be getting the finished product to work with so no, I guess it wouldn't matter.

    I think an example of what you actually mean would be something like a cinematic in a video game? Either way, the end product is still a 3D look on a 2D surface if you think about it, but in this case, sans drawing ability required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitnrun View Post
    I think an example of what you actually mean would be something like a cinematic in a video game? Either way, the end product is still a 3D look on a 2D surface if you think about it, but in this case, sans drawing ability required.
    You cannot possibly mean you have missed all those animated 3D computer graphics used in movies nowadays? You don't think these are hand-drawn, do you?

    You seem to equate "animation" with "drawing", but animation is not limited to flat art. There is stop-motion animation, for instance; that kind does not require any drawing.

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    Anid: I think your argument is inherently flawed, although Robert has expressed the reason why better than I have been. Traditional animation certainly does require a person to be competent at drawing. 3D does not. If you think about it - it's an amazing thing. Not everyone has the facility to handle the heavy drawing requirements of traditional animation; but they still want to create the performance, be a part of that process to bring what are effectively puppets to life. 3D now allows for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitnrun View Post
    @ Rabbit - When you said 3D, my brain went to "2D animation that looks 3D".
    Ah. In the animation industry, when people say '3D' they are referring to animation created in programs such as Maya.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitnrun View Post
    Also I think I should've said "content" as opposed to "subject matter". If you're making your own content for 2D animation, you're going for a 3D look (2D looking 3D - think still lives, trompe l'oile paintings, etc. The illusion of Depth on a 2D surface - this is what I thought you meant) then you'd need to know how to draw.
    I'd like to point out you were the one that first said subject matter. Trying to make a traditional short that looks that realistic would be...very painstaking. However, maybe you'd be interested in a short called The Cow, which is paint on glass. (for those unfamiliar with animation, that means the entire animation is created on a single pane of glass; the painting is 'changed' for each successive frame - there are no cells overlaid backgrounds.)




    Quote Originally Posted by hitnrun View Post
    Then again, you said you'd be getting the finished product to work with so no, I guess it wouldn't matter.

    I think an example of what you actually mean would be something like a cinematic in a video game? Either way, the end product is still a 3D look on a 2D surface if you think about it, but in this case, sans drawing ability required.
    When I said 3D, I mean 3D as explained above. Cinematics certainly qualify, although the animation is often sub-par. All of Pixar's films. Anything Dreamworks Animation has made after 2002. Disney's Tangled, Chicken Little, Meet the Robinsons, Bolt, and Prep and Landing. The fact that drawing ability isn't required here it my entire point.

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    I'll just drop in to say that even in modern 2D animation you don't necessarily have to draw that much. This applies to most animation done in Flash or Toonboom. The reason is that all the necessary views of the character, mouth positions and hand positions (some times even expressions, poses and walk cycles, depending on the production) are all provided for the animators by the design department. It's closer to 3D in this sense. Some studios require the animators to draw more, others less.

    This doesn't mean the animators can't draw or don't draw. If they are animating in 2D, at the very least the animation course they have taken would have required them to go through a lot of life drawing lessons and animate classically. A 3D animation course, as far as I know, does not require you to do life drawing, though it is suggested that you do. I do hear this "animators don't need to know how to draw" line a lot. The way I've always interpreted it is thus: if you have two people and one of them has stronger drawing skills - that person is not necessarily a better animator. For the animator, good acting skills are a stronger requirement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceberae View Post
    The way I've always interpreted it is thus: if you have two people and one of them has stronger drawing skills - that person is not necessarily a better animator. For the animator, good acting skills are a stronger requirement.
    QFT

    And I know this is CA and everyone is all about foundation and drawing and being holier than thou, everyone should do life drawing, and use charcoal, 24/7 but heck, you wouldn't believe the number of 3d people and animators who are pros in the game industry and can't draw their way out of a wet paper bag. They are still competant at their jobs, for the most part.

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    NO ing how 2 Draw.

    The point - is where the pencil meets the paper, what that feels like, the sound it makes, the awareness to vary the pressure to make darker and lighter lines, faster, slower, so slow that if someone would to look your way they would think you had stopped. But you know, you can FEEL it, information flowing through your entire being.

    Then stop.... and imagine you are still drawing!

    ~MW

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    Quote Originally Posted by markwagner View Post
    NO ing how 2 Draw.

    The point - is where the pencil meets the paper, what that feels like, the sound it makes, the awareness to vary the pressure to make darker and lighter lines, faster, slower, so slow that if someone would to look your way they would think you had stopped. But you know, you can FEEL it, information flowing through your entire being.

    Then stop.... and imagine you are still drawing!

    ~MW
    .....huh?

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    an animator needs to know how to animate - how they get there is down to type of animation, brief and choice

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    The chief skill of animating is timing - determining how many frames are needed to sequence actions so that they flow nicely. It can be separately from drawing (stop motion):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovvk7T8QUIU&feature=fvst

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