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  1. #46
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    The OP would be better served spending time drawing, and reading through the existing threads where many of these same questions have been answered ad nauseum..

    You know. Like this one: The Reality of Going to Art School and a basic FAQ for those considering it.

    Or here: How to be an Artist Without Going to Art School

    Or Is going to school worth the time/money?

    Or How important is having a degree in art?

    Touched upon here....How to pick which candy to go for?

    And again here...SELF TAUGHT versus ART SCHOOL (circa 2006!!)

    And here...Can you teach yourself illustration or should you go to college for it?

    There's more, but I think that's enough to prove my point.


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  4. #47
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    I have to agree with Vineris. There's no way, starting out, that you can split between being an artist AND a programmer. Or at least being a good one in either profession. If you want to be an artist, then there's the hours and hours or drawing/painting/design,etc. If you want to be a programmer/software developer, then there are hours and hours of writing code, designing applications, etc.

    Being a developer for the last 25 years (for a lot of small and large corporations, etc), I can definitely tell you that the good developers are the same as the really good artists. They work a lot of very very long hours, sometimes don't get any sleep, crash and burn on extremely tight deadlines, etc.

    Nothing that I hate worse than having to clean up after a developer who is dabbling in code. You first have to find the bugs/design flaws, correct them or pull them out, AND then write the code correctly. Costs time and, most of the time, you don't have that extra time to get the work done (you've got too many other projects that are on the pile and that also have tight deadlines).

    Choose one.

    I'm lucky that I've been doing it so long and at a point in my career that I can start working to transition from developer to artist. But, starting out... I worked a lot of really really long days.

    Also, remember that programming is like art. If you really like it and want to do well, you'll spend all of your free time learning new languages, design techniques, design methodologies, etc. To do it well, you can't just write a couple of lines here and there and say that you're a programmer. That type of work means a lot of work for people like me who have to come in and maintain the code after you're gone.

  5. #48
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    As I said before, art school will only pre program you into a consumer that only functions the systems way
    Man, are you from the UK? it sounds like you have real issues with education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmor123 View Post
    So the same teacher that told me about the bachelors degrees told me something else today. First she taught me to put periods at the end of a sentence. Then she told me something that I thought was really interesting. She said that if anybody who wants to work with multimedia that if they know some programing that it could double a paycheck or even triple. Now abviously knowing how to do more things will get you more money but who here thinks it's worth it?
    Again, this is ignorant claptrap. I work in multimedia and games; artists get paid the same as programmers for the same level of work. I know because I had to do the budgets on some of the titles I worked as co-project lead. This person is an f'ing idiot. Why would you take advice from someone too stupid to actually work in the industry? If you're an artist it is better to be well rounded as an artist
    As for the visa thing, again BS. All that is required is an affidavit stating this person is more qualified than other applicants. I wrote a few of them for people we hired from eastern block countries and two from England.
    Last edited by dpaint; August 25th, 2011 at 02:09 PM.

  7. #50
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    Yeah, i understand that you had a bad time of it olivercartwright but you are condemning all teachers with your rhetoric. I'll give you a list of teachers if you'd like that have thought outside any kind of box and have been pioneers in illustration and fine art.

    I agree with that there are bad teachers and schools out there but I haven't stopped drinking and recommending coffee because I had a bad one once.

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  9. #51
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    Having a bachelors degree certainly does give you a much higher chance and advantage over those who don't. I thought it was stupid too once, but I talked to my dad, who works at a pretty big company and hires people, and he basically said this :

    The BA doesn't necessarily give you technical skills over someone who doesn't have it. Anyone can be good at anything, regardless of school. It DOES show however, that you are dedicated, and willing to put work into something. It shows that you can work with people, are dependable, and stuck with something to the end.

    Ofc, this applies to entry level probably. Once you've a killer portfolio, and worked at notable companies, nobody is going to give a shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarithium View Post
    Having a bachelors degree certainly does give you a much higher chance and advantage over those who don't. I thought it was stupid too once, but I talked to my dad, who works at a pretty big company and hires people, and he basically said this :

    The BA doesn't necessarily give you technical skills over someone who doesn't have it. Anyone can be good at anything, regardless of school. It DOES show however, that you are dedicated, and willing to put work into something. It shows that you can work with people, are dependable, and stuck with something to the end.

    Ofc, this applies to entry level probably. Once you've a killer portfolio, and worked at notable companies, nobody is going to give a shit.
    A pretty big company? Unless it's artistic, his opinion isn't valid in this case. We are discussing a very specific industry. There are professionals here who have already stated the degree itself does not matter.

    Art isn't something that people pick up on a weekend and do. It takes years of study and practice to be able to execute the artwork successfully. Certainly more than the four years school requires. School also in no way guarantees a person is dependable or can work with people; it's a perception that keeps getting perpetuated with no evidence to support it.

    I don't see why this is so hard to understand. You want to have the degree anyway? Feel that the structure school has to offer will benefit you? Great! There's nothing wrong with that! But don't apply a significance to it that does not exist.

  11. #53
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    Geez, someone has an axe to grind. On the last page, at least two people said degrees can give you an advantage at entry level / can be a tipping point...

    I don't care what you say, to some employers, specifically at entry level, degrees will be significant, and provide evidence that you have invested in your ability / aren't a moron. At my uni, (not an art major), I know for a fact the #1 thing they drill into you is team work and collaborative experience. I also happen to know that the ability to function on a team is huge in any industry, especially the game one, which happens to hire a lot of artists. If you've worked at a huge company as a lead artist, obviously it doesn't matter, since it already proves you're competent. Saying the industry doesn't care at all though is asinine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarithium View Post
    I don't care what you say, to some employers, specifically at entry level, degrees will be significant, and provide evidence that you have invested in your ability / aren't a moron.
    But we're pretty much talking specifically about art related employers, not just "some" employers. I mean sure, getting a job as a cashier in a supermarket (in here) actually requires a degree as it's requested in the application (if you have strong previous experience it might not be needed), but to get a job as a game artist only experience and skill are asked for, which you'll prove with your portfolio.
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  14. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarithium View Post
    Geez, someone has an axe to grind. On the last page, at least two people said degrees can give you an advantage at entry level / can be a tipping point...

    I don't care what you say, to some employers, specifically at entry level, degrees will be significant, and provide evidence that you have invested in your ability / aren't a moron. At my uni, (not an art major), I know for a fact the #1 thing they drill into you is team work and collaborative experience. I also happen to know that the ability to function on a team is huge in any industry, especially the game one, which happens to hire a lot of artists. If you've worked at a huge company as a lead artist, obviously it doesn't matter, since it already proves you're competent. Saying the industry doesn't care at all though is asinine.
    Just irritated as misinformation is being perpetuated about entertainment industry hiring practices by people who have not worked professionally.

    From your post I gather the following: you are a university student, and you are not an entertainment art major. Yet you are calling my opinion on the matter asinine? I am speaking about something which I have direct, relevant experience. I never said the art industry doesn't care about teamwork. Playing nice in the sandbox with others is extremely important - I said that having a degree doesn't mean a person is a good team player. You should read through the links I provided earlier, and take note of what the professionals are saying.

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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivercartwright View Post
    Exactly. It's all about industry experience and good work in your portfolio, none of which can be obtained during college. If anything college only slows you down, and in an industry advancing as quick as it does, you're past your sell by date before you leave.
    Though it does kinda vary from country to country... In my case I skipped (couldn't get into) art "college" (the "kinda equivalent" of college/high school in here) and attended an art school and after that I went to get a degree in game design (or audio-visual multimedia-something degree) from vocational school (which is equivalent of college when it comes to advancing to higher education) which is what actually got me my job (the school, not the degree) and later I attended evening college for fun.

    So yeah, it depends. Going to school gave me the skills to get my job and the degree I got out from it was an additional bonus.
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  17. #57
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    To the OP: In the end the degree is not the goal. As a piece of paper it will not get you a job. Can it play a role in some cases? Yes. But the main thing is developing an awareness of who you are and how you learn. If you don't really know, then school can help out with that and you can always stop going. People seem to have had bad experiences with school and I understand that but it can be great in the right situation for the right person.

    Connections I made in school got me several gigs including one at LucasArts and I didn't go to one of those high-powered art schools. You make of any situation what you want. To succeed at anything, including school, you have to be proactive and go get what you want. That means go get what you need to be great not a piece of paper.

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  19. #58
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    In my experience and from what I've seen, bachelor's degrees mean jack shit anymore in pretty much any field, other than to serve as the new high school diploma. With the exception of pre-med, hard sciences and engineering, going to university in hopes of landing a job afterwards is pretty naive. Go to get an education, but it is not going to get you a job. Not without a lot of extra hard work on your own time. I can't think of anything a degree is less relevant to than art. (EDIT: That is certainly not to say you can't get a wonderful education at an art school, and perhaps improve faster than you otherwise would, but the improvement is what you should be after and not the degree.)

    I'm not bitter or anything.

    "To succeed at anything, including school, you have to be proactive and go get what you want. That means go get what you need to be great not a piece of paper." <-- This. This this this. bcarman said it better than I could. I'm stuck in a degree I don't really want to finish and it is scary, but I still believe that if I work hard enough at my art I might someday be able to support myself with it. That won't be for a long while, but it is comforting to know that art is one of the last remaining places where you can get a job based on (very) hard work, ability and determination, and not just because a piece of paper says so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarithium View Post
    Geez, someone has an axe to grind. On the last page, at least two people said degrees can give you an advantage at entry level / can be a tipping point...

    I don't care what you say, to some employers, specifically at entry level, degrees will be significant, and provide evidence that you have invested in your ability / aren't a moron. At my uni, (not an art major), I know for a fact the #1 thing they drill into you is team work and collaborative experience. I also happen to know that the ability to function on a team is huge in any industry, especially the game one, which happens to hire a lot of artists. If you've worked at a huge company as a lead artist, obviously it doesn't matter, since it already proves you're competent. Saying the industry doesn't care at all though is asinine.
    We are talking about art, where artists have the advantage of showing how good they are through a portfolio. This is different between a guy who has no experience other than the fact he went to school.

    Artists of different walks have made their living through this wide field. I don't think for example the editor in charge of running Sunday comic strips cares if Jim Davis or Aaron McGruder had a degree.

    I don't particularly care of Matt Stone or Trey Parker had degrees to make the animation in South Park. I think an investor cares if it was a hit that makes money.

    We can argue about the quality of art in the various art fields, but it does all come down to "can we market it and make some $$$"

    I will say again, getting an art education IS important.

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  22. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivercartwright View Post
    Exactly. It's all about industry experience and good work in your portfolio, none of which can be obtained during college. If anything college only slows you down, and in an industry advancing as quick as it does, you're past your sell by date before you leave.

    The best advice is to get your work out their ASAP, all guns blazing. Any refinements and progression can be made asking real designers not teachers. You can learn the rest from the abundance of information floating about on the web. Surely in an economy like this one, anyone with a brain would save their money and not waste it on college. If you are going to be a Doctor or a Lawyer certainly go! I just know so many artists working in supermarkets and I'm the only one that dropped out and actually works full time in the industry. I already have gained so much experience, due to hammering my work out their and taking risks. Taking risks is something they never tell you in college, they just brainwash you into thinking having this piece of the paper will guarantee you a job. They start this whole fiasco from your first important test in school, making you think you will fail without a college degree.
    I call bullshit. The idea that people have a 'sell by' date is absolutely ludicrous, and perpetuates ageism.

    As for schools themselves...case by case basis. Many schools DO have 'real designers' teaching, who do stress that a portfolio and skills should be top priority. Just because you had a bad experience does not mean it's typical of all institutions.

    Being self taught does not make you better or more unique than someone who opted to go through school. It's simply a means to an end. (The end, as many others have clarified, is the skills and a good portfolio - not a degree.)

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