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  1. #31
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    This is where I'm glad that I intend to go into animation. It's still going to be tough to get jobs and everything, but I don't think animation films are going to disappear anytime soon, children's cartoons will still be around, video and computer games will likely not disappear anytime soon and there's more and more "normal" films that use animation. Not fooling myself into believing it'll be a cushy thing to do but I'm quite positive so far that there will still be something of an industry by the time I'm unleashed from school into the working world.



    Check these out too:
    Rotor - GoGoJoJo

    "Limited drawing skills are OK if they are offset by a fearless commitment to putting images on paper."

    "I mean, What is a chair? It's an anti-gravity device." Glen Keane

    "The difficult part is continuously realizing when you've stopped enjoying the process, and re-aligning yourself. It's kind of like meditation/being an art ninja..." ceddo
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  3. #32
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    Jesus, you guys talk like by next week studios wont need concept art, or people will all of a sudden stop buying paintings from artists and galleries would close for good, well, it will happen, but not anytime soon... the earth crashing with another planet is more likely to happen before

    this thread is depressing

    -We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.

    -Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon 'em.

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  4. #33
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    Chris,

    Very nice article.
    (Have you ever thought of writing for art magazines? Or may be you're already, I don't know.)

    I just had a nightmare.
    I always dream my sons to become artists, but they decided to become lawyers instead. I woke up, they're still too young, but the reality of this business really makes me nervous.

    Also the gallery system is not what it was during the great days of the Paris Salons and is only a husk of what it used to be in the early part of the 20th century.
    There was an article, published by Liberation back in January, which I'm sure you'll find interesting. Written by a well-known gallery owner, Farideh Cadot. If not speaking French, translation with Google makes the article quite readable.

    www.4-art.org - art educational books
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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  6. #34
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    Book Guru: That's very kind of you. And thanks for the article link - very interesting as you say.

    As for writing articles for art magazines etc: I've recently wondered about doing that. Maybe I should.

    I've never liked moaning about things and see what I write as a way of putting a positive into the world. Even if the surface of what I'm saying appears depressing, it is really a call for life.
    I post on CA as a way of giving to the young... Empathy I guess, I was their age once.

    From Gegarin's point of view
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  8. #35
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    My parents always tell me "Ven, why don't you be a Doctor like your sister." "You will make alot of money, have a nice house, etc." Well I don't want to live the rest of my life with the question.. "What if I stuck with art" Art is the only thing that I enjoy and I can't imagine life without art.

    I'm 16 now so I have a long way to go. But what I do know is that, if I work hard, study like a mad man then I will become an artist.

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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rem92 View Post
    this thread is depressing
    Hey, could be a LOT worse. This could be PA.org...PoeticArts.org! :shivers:

    What would Caravaggio do?
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  11. #37
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    Better to know depressing things that are true than lovely things that are not.

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
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  13. #38
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  14. #39
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    Haha, the real depressing thing is realizing that no matter what you do, life will always have downsides. But there are upsides too.

    You just have to figure out which ones happen in your field of work and decide if you want to stick it out or not. That's the really hard part.

    "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."
    Lao-tzu, Chinese philosopher (604 BC - 531 BC)

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  15. #40
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    Yea, I was 13 when I had to 'choose a career' so I got stuck with Engineering. 13 is waaay to early in life to not be influenced by stupid family. Now in my early 40's I'm finally in a position to change course and do what I always wanted to do.

    The years in between, I was always a dabbler in arts, if I wasn't I would have exploded.

    Thankfully the Recession made it so I can't find a decent engineering job anywhere within reach, so it completely took away the guilt of "not acting like a responsible adult, and taking a secure well paying job".

    Right now, in spite of knowing a ton of people in engineering field, and having only relatively rudimentary skills in art (mostly 3D and modeling), I'm able to find more work in art. Plus, personality wise, I don't fit the engineer model, even after 20 years of trying to fit in the mold and having wear and tear marks from it.

    Gimmie a starving artist any day, over a starving engineer.

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  16. #41
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    What kind of engineering?

    Any job is volatile it really doesn't matter if its art or not.

    *** Sketchbook and other stuff ***

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    What kind of engineering?

    Any job is volatile it really doesn't matter if its art or not.
    Civil Engineering and Land Surveying, teensy bit of Geology. In the later years I built my own department doing 3D engineering VIZ. Similar to architectural Viz, but also dealing with numerical analysis. Lot of 3D modeling and texturing and numerical stuff, not so much rendering and 'beauty shots'

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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rem92 View Post
    Jesus, you guys talk like by next week studios wont need concept art, or people will all of a sudden stop buying paintings from artists and galleries would close for good, well, it will happen, but not anytime soon... the earth crashing with another planet is more likely to happen before

    this thread is depressing
    People have been confidently predicting and announcing the death of art for centuries now. I wouldn't be too worried about that.

    It is a very risky business to go into though: history is absolutely replete with great artists (and writers, poets and composers) going unrecognized and living in poverty. It's one of those things.

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  19. #44
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    you have to be bold because there will be folks who will say 'you cant' or 'you shouldnt' or 'why?' there is a certain boldness to saying 'well, i really dont want to be a high powered corporate lawyer. im really passionate about painting (or drawing).

    -Chris Gardner - Author of "the Pursuit of Happiness."

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    my subconscious does not stop begging my conscious to draw.
    hmm does that mean im a slave to my subconscious?
    at least it doesnt beg for crack. ha.
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  20. #45
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  21. #46
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    As regards to "the end of all we know as art" and such:

    I don't believe Chris Bennett was saying that the profession will outright die. There will always be some need for concept artists, industrial design, logos, illustration and the such. However, the pool of jobs is shrinking while the wave of applicants just grows larger and larger. Furthermore may of those jobs don't need the best of the best but rather, the bare minimum at the cheapest price.

    To drive this home with a real life example, I have a close friend who got a degree in art (specifically digital work, animation, design, games stuff). He had to go to Malaysia to get that degree without going bankrupt, but he did it. Now that he's back in the States the only work he's been able to find is as "outsourced" labor, that is to say he works at the wages someone in say... India may work.

    He is currently saving money to move back to Malaysia, where he could actually afford to live off of the wages he's earning.

    That, is what the future of art is for most.

    It's not just art, anything that does not have to be produced locally is suffering the same fate. For those things that must be produced locally, rest assured that experts are working around the clock figuring out how to 'fix' that.

    -My work can be found at my local directory thread.
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  22. #47
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    Chris,

    I guess you do this because you're a kind person. And this also shows in your posts.
    Besides, your style is very smooth. I can read the whole page of your text with much more pleasure than one paragraph that is written by someone in "bumpy" or "jumpy" way.

    kunfyoozdish,

    I'm not sure I get this.
    A person with alcohol addiction, married 3 times, died at the age of 58... I'm not sure his own messages are so much convincing as he doesn't look as a happy person himself.
    But this brings us to the impossible question of "what's happiness" and other philosophical mess.

    Anid,

    What if your friend is simply not that good at what he's doing?
    I'm not sure all graduates from the MIT get the same salaries either. Though they're in a much more secure field, that's for sure.
    I didn't want to offend you, but as in any field, and especially in such competitive field as arts, you get to the top by being the best of the best.

    I remember my surprise when reading credits of one Disney cartoon. 10 minutes of fast running, small font text with thousands of names of animators. Most names sounded very Hindu-like. I'm not sure Disney has a subdivision in India, but I'm sure all those guys don't get really high salaries. Though their names appear in Disney movie, to some it's the greatest achievement already.

    www.4-art.org - art educational books
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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  23. #48
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    I'm not saying he's the best of the best, and maybe just maybe if someone here thinks they can be the creme de la creme they can land a real nice gig. There will always be that "rock star" position right up there at the top, and those who sacrifice enough may have a shot.

    But I'm talking to the average person with a passion for art, who want to make a modest living at it. And by definition of average, that future is rather dim. There is only so much room at the top, and your average person won't make it.

    While my friend isn't the best, he is certainly good enough to get consistent work. The quality is decent, he is professional, he is punctual. At one time that was enough to rent an apartment with and maybe get to a point where you can make an honest to goodness career out of it.

    Not so much today.

    P.S. No offense taken, he is my friend and all but truth is truth. :)

    P.P.S. Although I wish I can judge him by current work, so far he's hardly been able to show anything due to strict foreign contracts that credit work to the studio rather than the artist. With all the work he's gotten, I'm sure he's stepped up his game.

    -My work can be found at my local directory thread.
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  24. #49
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    Your all forgetting a really important factor: Luck

    *** Sketchbook and other stuff ***

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  25. #50
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    Anid,

    I hear what you're saying.
    Thinking of it... may be there are too many artists nowadays? The irony of this field is it gets more tough every year yet attracting too many young souls. The market is too narrow, can't fit them all.
    (and thank you for not taking my comment too personally)

    Flashback,

    So... Michelangelo, da Vinci, Rubens, Rembrandt, Malevich, Kandinsky, Rockwell...etc
    Were simply lucky???!!!
    No way.

    But yes, values have changed. Too bad that now true artist depends too much on what you call "luck". Much fault lies on the shoulders of galleries (see my link above) and art "specialists".
    And I personally don't like it either.

    www.4-art.org - art educational books
    www.Practicum.org - art educational portal
    guru@4-art.org - my direct e-mail
    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  27. #51
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    In my experience you can't just be good at art, you have to have some people skills and be a good business person too. You have to work harder and faster than your competition but still give your clients the quality they want. You can't specialize too much or you run the risk of becoming obsolete as a program or tool replaces your narrow field of ability.

    All these things get over looked when people want to become artists. They haven't done their homework and then they are disappointed and frustrated because they can't do the work to the level it needs to be done, in the time it needs to be done, and within the budget it needs to be done and still make enough money to live.

    I have been doing it fulltime or almost 22 years now, its easier now than it ever was, there are more jobs, there are more kinds of jobs, and there are more tools that allow you to not really have the skills of someone who was working in the industry 10, 20, 30 years ago. All of those things put pressure on price though; those things also allow less talented people a chance at working where there was none for them before so you are competing with a larger pool of people most of whom will undercut you just for a chance to get work.

    Most of the people on this site will never work in the creative industries as an artist. They don't have the skills or brains or determination to do it. It doesn't make them bad people it just means they had unrealistic expectations and didn't do the homework to find out what it really takes. They look at the bottom of the market and think I can do that. Or they see something done under an insane deadline and say my work is just as good, even though their work takes them twenty times longer to do for the same result.
    Art isn't for weaklings or idiots, its a highly skilled job, its the hardest thing I've ever done and I had lots of other jobs before becoming a professional artist.

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  29. #52
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    In a sense, yes. Luck is really opportunity cost at work or probability at work.

    But, I'm not saying that it was the only THE MOST important factor:
    The best factor is hard work, knowledge.
    I rather have someone who is a hard worker, and knowledgeable, then someone who lucky and talented.

    Art isn't for weaklings or idiots, its a highly skilled job, its the hardest thing I've ever done and I had lots of other jobs before becoming a professional artist.
    Like, any other job. My view is that someone should try to do their best no matter what. Eventually, your will be better for it.

    Most people are guilty of not setting realistic goals or they don't even set goals at all, and they are usually biting more then they can chew.

    Last edited by Flashback; July 27th, 2011 at 09:55 AM.
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  30. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    Anid,

    I hear what you're saying.
    Thinking of it... may be there are too many artists nowadays? The irony of this field is it gets more tough every year yet attracting too many young souls. The market is too narrow, can't fit them all.
    (and thank you for not taking my comment too personally)
    Partly it's what Chris Bennett was speaking of, a diminishing of the market itself. The great days of illustration are indeed over.

    But it is also that the pool of potential artists has broadened. Not only is the field attracting too many young souls, but with the advent of digital media artists from all over the world can compete for any job.

    Of course, this isn't universally true. However the exceptions are few and far between compared to the pool of artists out there.

    As you said, the market is too narrow and cannot fit them all.

    I don't mean to be pessimistic, but rather I'm pointing out a very real problem that most every up and coming commercial artist will face. And each one will have to ask themselves the question that Chris Bennett posed:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bennett View Post
    So what kind of person are you deep, deep down? How important is security, a sense of place in society, a sense of context, a sense of belonging, really, honestly, deep, deep down?
    I chose security. I want my wife and I to have that life depicted by Norman Rockwell, a goal that while seemingly modest is quite the struggle itself. I have contented myself with being a professional amateur.

    My friend, well he's decided to pack for Malaysia so he can compete.

    -My work can be found at my local directory thread.
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  32. #54
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    Drawing is just a hobby for me. I have considered getting into some artistic industry like computer game concept art or comics, but now I think I'll probably be too busy with anthropology to become a professional artist of any kind.

    Everything is better with dinosaurs.
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  33. #55
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    I keep hearing this idea that the market for art is shrinking; this is just untrue.
    What is shrinking is people willing to pay for services or pay a fair wage for them. There are now a million free books for kindle; most have art and graphic design for them. How many of them do you think paid for it?

    Special effects and art for TV, movies, cartoons, video games, online social games, massive multiplayer games, ipad games, iphone games, handhelds and all of the product development and advertising that goes with them. Fifteen years ago most of these things were a tenth of what they are now if they even existed at all.

    Luck is what people with limited or no talent and inadequit drive and discipline believe in to help them sleep at night. There is no luck, there is only chance, and as Pasteur said "all things being equal, chance favors the prepared mind."

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  35. #56
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    I think it is something of a modern idea or concept that a person today can do a job they love or that's cool. Hundreds of years ago people did not have the luxury of recreational time or the choice what job they wanted to do. Sure, there were some painters, but most, if they were lucky enough to survive that long lived and died farming the land.

    If the harvest was poor, they likely died of starvation. Me, well I'm happy I have the luxury to pursue art in my own time as a hobby. Trying to walk the path of doing it for a living seems an insecure road to travel, particularly if you lack the knack for people and business skills like myself.

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    Art ain't easy, but it's not friggin' impossible. I'm making a pretty decent income off of art straight out of college.

    Chris was being realistic with his post. But a lot of people get all doom-and-gloom about the industry because they're shopping around their sub-par portfolio and not getting any work. And the people whose work is high quality but still can't get work are probably just lousy at the non-art aspects of being an artist (business, finance, people skills).

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  38. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Pilcher View Post
    Drawing is just a hobby for me. I have considered getting into some artistic industry like computer game concept art or comics, but now I think I'll probably be too busy with anthropology to become a professional artist of any kind.
    Same with me. My head makes too much noise for me to get particularly good at any one thing: I simply have too many hobbies and I'm not willing to relinquish any of them.

    Now if I could earn some extra cash through my hobby, I guess I wouldn't complain about it, but I'm not convinced I would want to draw eight hours per day, every day.

    Last edited by blogmatix; July 27th, 2011 at 01:27 PM.
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    I believe this thread has narrowly defined artist. I'd prefer artist to include all creative people who think outside conventionsal lifestyles. Chances are most people went to a public school which kicked all creativity out of them, almost as if the districts want to turn young people into marching sheep.

    Be the person who is able to display their works, and have people ask, "How did you do that?"

    I can't understand how people can claim nobody makes a living as an artist. I personally would prefer to be the 'go to' person when it comes to designing something, even if I've got to hire someone with the skills I don't have.

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  40. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Special effects and art for TV, movies, cartoons, video games, online social games, massive multiplayer games, ipad games, iphone games, handhelds and all of the product development and advertising that goes with them. Fifteen years ago most of these things were a tenth of what they are now if they even existed at all.
    That's certainly true. Anyone doing images for apps is getting a lot of work right now. A friend of mine who was doing a regular cartoon for Playboy made more with one iPhone game than an entire year with the Playboy gig. Something that was unthinkable even 5 years ago.

    But...
    Most of the new communication technology using imagery is chiefly about cartooning the mass production of icons.
    The special effect stuff in TV, movies, cartoons and video games is where everyone understandably wants to be and anyone starting out should be running in these directions. But they need to be VERY AWARE that mimetic technology programmes will be the way this stuff is produced, increasingly supplanting the traditional mediums.

    People who want to be fine artists - painting pictures to sell on spec through the gallery system have a different problem, but it is none-the-less fundamentally affected by the way our culture relates to images under the leviathan shadow of the developing modern communications technology.

    Last edited by Chris Bennett; July 27th, 2011 at 03:34 PM.
    From Gegarin's point of view
    http://www.chrisbennettartist.co.uk/
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