Try Cowdisley. Informative, serious.
Another good forum:
I agree about Cennini - some crazy shit.
Unfortunately, there are a few of those out there.. Take a peruse through GoodArt. It's like Pravda.
But there are excellent forums out there. Places where serious traditional visual art, drawing and painting techniques and materials etc. can be intelligently discussed in an mature, intellectual environment and moderated by serious supporters.
Last edited by Justme; April 30th, 2004 at 02:20 PM.
I take it this is aimed at me, as the last thread got closed almost as soon as I posted it.
Thanks for the information Justme, I will be taking a look at the forum you mentioned.
As for Cennini, when I first came across it I thought it was some sort of joke, all the grovelling, constant political diatribe, crazy crazy stuff...
Jason Manley -
I appreciate that this site is your personal project, and that you likely are both emotionally and financially invested in this site, however if only opinions which correspond with your own are permitted then it hardly represents a COMMUNITY does it?
Dissenting opinion should be taken as a crucible upon which a stronger community is forged.
So here are a few more dissenting opinions for you, perhaps this time you can take them in the spirit they are given.
Whilst there is a small percentage of quality professionals active on this site/other sites, they generally do not engage in any meaningful critique of others work, sadly it mostly seems to be an ego boost for them.
The degree to which this site represents a comprehensive reference is limited, there is scant information on perspective, lighting, composition etc. of a detailed sort, most critique is vague, along the lines of ' just practice more'.
Whilst I am sure the calibre of artist you mentioned (lunar girl, noxizmad, nivbed, craig mullins etc.) are good middle tier artists, and quite possibly some of the best represented on the internet, they are certainly not among the best working in the field. I would cite the likes of Iain Mccaig, Brian Froud, James Gurney, Ron Cobb as the sort of work that might be considered first class.
I have no problem with artists just starting out, don't assume opinion based on a single post. Artists should have assistance suited to their skill level, and that is what my criticism centres on, the lack of high end information available on this, and other sites.
Seriously, don't go down the road of the aforementioned Cennini forums, stay open and try to get some of the higher grade/more experienced artists involved, don't let the flush of success from your site and workshops blind you.
Do you want a little private sight just for the pro's?
That sounds like it would be just for an ego boost.
They way I understand it, this sight is for EVERYONE to post and improve.
And the artist you mentioned...are you serious? Those are the guys that get you off. Your mind works completely different than the people who visit this site. Most of us probably want to be as far from those guys as possible.
I am not requesting a site solely for the more advanced artists, just a site that features higher end content.
For instance, in-depth information on the properties of light (refraction, diffraction, interference effects, reflectivity) accurate perspective, composition as more than an intuitive property of the picture, in-depth anatomy/biomechanics (I have had to resort to medical atlas' to get this sort of stuff) etc.
In other words, I just want some really detailed advanced info, beginners are welcome to the sort of elementary stuff currently available, this is fine, this is great, but not enough once you are past that stage.
As for the artists I mentioned, what exactly don't you like about their work? As far as I am concerned they far surpass both technically and creatively most nearly all others in the field...
Iain McCaigs figure work is second to none, his compositions dynamic yet natural, very smooth watercolor/gouache work
James Gurney has presented some of the best realised 'alternate realities' of all, his dinotopia stuff oozes quality, his colour/tone control is superb
Brian Frouds Dark crystal work is some of the best concept work ever done for film...
Ron Cobb has also produced some amazing film work
You are entitled to your opinion, but please offer some reasons...
If you want an pro-artist-only site, i suggest you set one up.
Power is nothing without intelligence.
Froud's concept art for Dark Crystal never impressed me, especially the main character which I felt was flat, unremarkable and had a sexual ambiguity that seemed accidental. I thought it was a poorly designed character. His illustrations rarely show any knowledge of composition. He is TECHNICALLY skilled. Lastly the reason I thought you said this guy was because he paints fairies, the polar opposite of what people here like.
I thought Ian McCaig was an actor. What does the other Ian McCaig do?
Gurney I just don't think would be one of the first to pop to mind when thinking of well crafted worlds.
It just seemed like your four artist choices were designed to agitate because of their subject matter combined with the fact that three of the four are old school.
We'd all like some more detailed information on creating art so you're not alone there. More people just need to stop being lazy and actually go through the trouble of posting what they know. Somewhere on here I did run into a really good thread on the properties of light, specular highlights and such. I think the lengthy discussion and ammount of images necessary to teach anatomy is better suited for books and I'm sure we have a list of anatomy books. Try Bridgman, Giovanni Civardi, and John Cody's Visualizing muscles.
go buy some books, read up on light, composition, persepective, etc.Originally posted by Komodo King
...For instance, in-depth information on the properties of light (refraction, diffraction, interference effects, reflectivity) accurate perspective, composition as more than an intuitive property of the picture, in-depth anatomy/biomechanics (I have had to resort to medical atlas' to get this sort of stuff) etc....
study the old masters like caravaggio, rembrandt, vermeer, etc.
that should give you the answers you are looking for.
ps - as far as professional crits, check out the life drawing thread and how DRDarrow throws down some vaulable info in regards to compostion and value and lighting.
ITs all here. You just have to go and search for it. All the topics you've talked about are here. Do a search. Spend hours looking. Dont expect everything to fall in your lap. Jason Manley did an excellent tut and discussion on color theory. I believe its over 10 pages long. Just look man. Check out fredflinkstones color theory notes. Are they not helpful.
Have you seen kevin chen's fig drawings. Study those, its like having him directly teaching you.
The list goes on and on, you just have to look for it.
Oh and another thing. So what you're saying is that none of the information on this site or any of the others you dont like aren't advanced enough for you? They are of no value to you? If you're so advanced, what are you doing hanging out with all us mediocre and amateur artists. Besides, you say you want a forum with higher end content, but if there was such a thing, how could you ever be a part of it? Is your work so advanced? If it is then what do you need us for?Wouldnt we just be bringing you down? How high end is your artwork? Are you a pro?
I wanna see how "high end" your work is!
Why dont you post some of it?!
Last edited by I.was.ink; April 29th, 2004 at 09:21 AM.
There is nothing wrong with using a photo to help you see things.
No one complains about life drawing,
so take a photo.
its easy, and will improve your piece greatly."
Boy, am I new. I just tried to post here and created a new thread instead; i.e. Material Preparation etc. etc.
The points made were really written for this discussion.
Sorry folks. I don't have a lot of experience with forums. I find them daunting. Must be a right brain/ left brain thing.
Re: Komodo's remark: "in-depth anatomy/biomechanics (I have had to resort to medical atlas' to get this sort of stuff)"
This may help:
WORLD FAMOUS LECTURES ON
ARTISTIC ANATOMY & FIGURE DRAWING By
ROBERT BEVERLY HALE
VIDEOTAPED AT THE
ART STUDENT'S LEAGUE, NEW YORK on video available from Jo-an Pictures Ltd. PO Box 6020 NY, NY 10150 Telephone 1-888-224-8100
Realizing that the Hale lectures ought to be preserved for posterity, in 1976, before he retired, Hale's entire Monday night series of lectures was videotaped in black and white in the order that he delivered them at the Art Student's League of New York.
"Future generations of artists and students will be able to benefit from the vast knowledge and penetrating insights of these famous lectures, with all the warmth and wit that makes them such a memorable experience. Throughout the lectures, you see Mr. Hale demonstrating to his students the basic structure, proportions, anatomical details, function and renderings of the human figure, by way of the human skeleton and by his skillful step by step drawings."
Schools or libraries may have this series. I would hope that any realist (atelier or studio school) would invest in them for the benefit of their students since so few cover in-depth anatomy.
Last edited by Justme; April 30th, 2004 at 11:17 AM.
Capt. Harlock - I agree, books have proven to be the most consistently useful sources of information of the sort I am after, unfortunatly even that is a limited resource in certain respects, still, sound advice.
I.was.ink - I HAVE looked through this site, and many others, extensively. Elitism isn't what I'm about, it may be a difference of approach that is causing this friction, I am looking for a very specific sort of information, that may not even be available through the internet, I am not here to get into a pissing match and shall not be posting any work, yes I am a pro.
Joeslucher - Why on earth would I hate you? I would be happy to provide critique, look for it in your thread.
Iain Mcaig is a well known concept designer and illustrator, he was a concept artist on the STAR WARS prequels, storyboarded Terminator 2 etc. If you get the chance, try to track down a book he illustrated called 'Casket of Souls', as an aspiring watercolourist it may be of interest to you.
It seems that I will have to look elsewhere for what I'm after, I shall not be responding further.
The search continues...
as mom always says, if you dont have anything good to say then dont say it at all. since you dont listen to that line of thought (the first time i locked your thread was a hint), I will go ahead and quiet you down myself.
you insult those around you..including those who's work you should look to for answers.
we value every artists individual tastes and talents here. we dont value trouble making or destructive criticism.
komodo king is now banned. I have no time for people who insult those who are so active and strong in the community.
rather than argue with this guy from australia you all should do some art instead. he won't be wasting any more of your time here.
if you all want to start a non insulting thread on how to improve the site and forums please do. teamwork makes big things possible...working together is how great things happen...not working against each other. some people take longer to figure that out than others. my apologies.
This was a strange response and a distressing one.
Differences of opinion are resfreshing and stimulate the exchange. As long as there is no obviously hostility, the wisdom of freedom of expression can only enhance this type of environment.
Thank you for allowing me to visit your website and best of luck to all.
i closed the earlier thread because i saw where it was headed. when someone comes in and insults those who are most productive on the net. and without whom we would not have places like this or sijun or eatpoo or the others. then I will put a stop to it.
the part that was most amusing to me in all of this is that this guy has no idea where he is or whom he is around at any given time here on the site.
every major pro studio visits this site. most artists in the entertainment industry visit the sites he put down.
the beauty of it all is that there is a secret and hidden professionals forum here on the forums. it is exactly the place for which he looks. however, he insulted those some of those who are inside and burned any bridges before he could be admitted.
so now you know. those with professionals tags have them because they are part of that group. it is invite only and he could have been admitted had he only come here and proven himself to those inside. if he was a pro all he had to do was post his works and be helpful. we would have invited him had he shown himself to be of professional stature, mentality, and artistic merit.
you see, one should not go starting fires when they are looking for a straw house to find shelter in. that is the moral of the story here.
if his comments irritated one pro here on the boards and discourged them from doing what they do so well here (giving, sharing and helping) then it would have been a loss to the community. the loss of his opinionated ramblings here is of less importance than the loss of the great people who actually contribute around here. I deemed it not worth the risk. It has taken too long to build this place to let people come in and disrupt the community we cherish.