Is it just me?...
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    Is it just me?...

    Or does Art Discussion seem like it's about 75%+ basic, fundamental questions lately? I'm not saying that is a bad thing, or that this isn't the place, but it seems like a good indicator of the need for one of these: Fundamentals Forum.

    IDK, maybe not, these things probably go in waves. Just wondering.

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    It's a good indicator of people not reading what's already out there.

    I haven't been here a long time. But today I was searching for a post I thought was in this forum (it wasn't, but I did find it) and I was surprised to see how many topics are repeated in just the first six pages.




    Oh! Jeff. How should I hold my paintbrush?

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    I think most of the people asking those questions won't know what term "fundamentals" means.... I wouldn't have known it by that term, just about the time I needed it the most.

    However some kind of sub forum or set of sticky threads, or one beginner sticky thread with links to other threads with info about fundamentals is a good idea (it's crossed my mind too).

    It won't prevent people from not reading it and still asking, but it will make it much easier for those in the mood to respond to point them to useful info.

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    It's not just you... We seem to have reached extremes of super-basic and super-silly lately. Personally I think it's just Summer. Kids are out of school, bored, prepping for college, recently graduated high school and panicking... Ya know, the usual.

    I'm going to start telling people to hold their pencil with their teeth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    I'm going to start telling people to hold their pencil with their teeth.
    or their left foot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    It's a good indicator of people not reading what's already out there.

    I haven't been here a long time. But today I was searching for a post I thought was in this forum (it wasn't, but I did find it) and I was surprised to see how many topics are repeated in just the first six pages.




    Oh! Jeff. How should I hold my paintbrush?

    *RUNS*
    Ah yeah - I think you nailed it there. And so did Queenie with it being summer...didn't think of that.
    ----------------------

    Here, let me show you...*snap!* Now you can hold the pieces in both hands!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    It won't prevent people from not reading it and still asking, but it will make it much easier for those in the mood to respond to point them to useful info.
    Yes! This.

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    There should be a mandatory link upon signing up to a Big Beginner's Thread in which all the most common questions are answered.

    To be fair, I've been on this message board for years and lurked for a long while before then, but I still made the mistake recently on not finding another, older thread on the subject. But then, there was just one other thread on it and not a gazillion. So, yeah.

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    I'll just say "I agree" and let that be it.

    Doctors heal you, Artists immortalize you.

    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" - bullshit.

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    It's not just you Jeff.

    For an experiment, if I were an Admin, I'd change the title of this sub-forum to Fundamentals, and open another forum that says Art discussion, and see how many post there with these questions over how many post in the Fundamentals Form.

    Would be interesting in a pointless way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Or does Art Discussion seem like it's about 75%+ basic, fundamental questions lately?
    Lately?

    Heck, I'm surprised to not see a thread complaining about how rude everyone is at CA for not answering basic questions that anybody could answer themselves with little more than a few minutes worth of initiative.

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    It's summer. The kiddies are out of school. The other particularly stupid times of year are Fall ("Yay, new back-to-school computer!) and late Dec/early Jan. ("Yay, new computer/tablet for Christmas!).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    It's summer. The kiddies are out of school. The other particularly stupid times of year are Fall ("Yay, new back-to-school computer!) and late Dec/early Jan. ("Yay, new computer/tablet for Christmas!).
    When you put it that way, it sounds like most of the year....

    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpacer View Post
    When you put it that way, it sounds like most of the year....
    Haha, yeah. I think he means specifically really early autumn and times in Dec (late Dec) and early January.

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    I have noticed they have been taking slaps in the face quite well though. For a while there everyone was flipping out on you guys no matter what you said. Now only 1 out of 4 gets offended that they cant look something up themselves or that you are withholding the "secret" to drawing instead of the usual 3 out of 4. And they seem to check themselves a bit quicker too if they do get mad. Who knows maybe I am being optimistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    It's summer. The kiddies are out of school. The other particularly stupid times of year are Fall ("Yay, new back-to-school computer!) and late Dec/early Jan. ("Yay, new computer/tablet for Christmas!).
    Yeah - you clued me in to the "new toy for Christmas" time of sorrow...and now I'll be better prepared for the "Fall festival of fun".

    @GuruGaia - I agree with that - the whining had diminished.

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    The past few weeks definitely have a lack of good topics...but is there really ANY time when people aren't asking questions without thinking (or in this case doing a little research)?

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    On a somewhat related note...

    Can anyone think of a book which focuses on the purpose of process work and the importance of thinking when drawing/painting? (i.e. "a painting is a collection of decisions" type of stuff). And I mean something that really gets into the guts of how planning/design decisions relates to technique and the finished product, and that trying to intuit one's way across a painting may not be the best method for a beginner.

    I find myself attempting to explain this concept to people quite often, and I thought it might help to have some reading material to suggest, considering that understanding this is way more helpful long-term than any how-to manual or tutorial (Although they have the same goal, they just take a more circuitous albeit hands-on route).

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    Absolutely - "Alla Prima" by Richard Schmid is loaded with that kind of stuff. Also Harold Speed's book on drawing and the one on painting. The Loomis books in his "Opening Chats" and closing remarks are also excellent for spot-on, practical insight and wisdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit run View Post
    or their left foot.
    topic idea...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruGaia View Post
    I have noticed they have been taking slaps in the face quite well though. For a while there everyone was flipping out on you guys no matter what you said. Now only 1 out of 4 gets offended that they cant look something up themselves or that you are withholding the "secret" to drawing instead of the usual 3 out of 4. And they seem to check themselves a bit quicker too if they do get mad. Who knows maybe I am being optimistic.
    *Guiltily raises hand*

    I think what it is, is that (1) there is so much information on these boards and it's so spread out that it is hard to find information relevant to the question people are trying to get answered.
    I've sometimes tried to search for a topic and maybe I just don't know how to search properly, but I just get such a high number of results that are about said topic, but in no way come close to answering my question. So instead I just ask my question and hope to get pointed in the right direction.

    So improving the search functions could be an idea.


    And (2) I think people see a lot of talented people here and hope to get some personal help for their needs specifically.

    I think Jeff's suggestion on a separate fundamentals board is good. Though I think a couple of stickified threads would do the job just as well. There are some good threads in the mentoring boards, but personally I've never posted there because these are things that you needed to sign up for at some point to get feedback on your work and just posting there would feel like intruding and also in many cases those sessions have already ended so I'm not sure how active they still are. So yeah, just a set of threads that line out the fundamentals, explained in detail, with examples good and bad, complete with sets of exercises.

    That way when someone goes "I can't draw heads, how do I draw them?"
    The standard reply would be "Post your drawing of a head"
    Original Poster posts image.
    Reply: "You are having problems with conveying your form, because of this your values are off, ... Go to *link* and start the exercise program from section 4 about form. Make a sketchbook and get back to us when the exercises are all up in there.

    Anyone crazy enough to make such threads? Of course it could be a team effort.

    And (3) yes, people do want to know the secret answer. But I think this is brought on by frustration of being self-critical and being unhappy with the results after X amount of practice. (X varying from person to person)

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    To be honest, I'm terrible at using the search function on forums because I can never find what I'm looking for even though I'm certain it must exist. It must be to do with the way I word things. If I think the topic must already exist I just won't make one unless It's desperate, out of fear o looking stupid...

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    I wouldn't worry too much about not using the search on the forums here. I'll be honest with you that its current iteration is terrible. I use Google to search using whatever keyword followed by site:conceptart.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAJiME View Post
    To be honest, I'm terrible at using the search function on forums because I can never find what I'm looking for even though I'm certain it must exist. It must be to do with the way I word things. If I think the topic must already exist I just won't make one unless It's desperate, out of fear o looking stupid...
    I have no such fear. I assume it's common knowledge that I am.

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    I don't trust my 'google foo' that much... on things where I'm so new that I haven't learned the right search terminology yet ...... and I worry that if I ever clicked on the "I'm feeling lucky" button, it would make my monitor explode.

    Sometimes a hooman touch, even when someone grabs you by the collar across the interwebz and rubs your nose in the answer is a nice thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    and I worry that if I ever clicked on the "I'm feeling lucky" button, it would make my monitor explode.
    Oh man, there are such terrible things I can suggest searching with that button.

    But "Find Chuck Norris" is pretty tame and funny.

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    Well, I'm just lazy. The search feature is beneath me. I'm entitled to a personal answer, right? Plus why ask on the forum what you can spam in the chat? That way there isn't proof.

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    I don't know why you are complaining Jeff, it seems to me that you and other old-hands here enjoy making witty comments and then thank each other for it.
    That is certainly a way to get summer going!

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    I think he's complaining because that's what the Lounge is for.

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    The idea of a "fundamentals" sub-forum almost appeals to me, except this forum suffers from too much "feature creep" as it is; too many sub-forums, to many flashy graphics and animated gifs, too many confusing options.

    My computer can barely handle this forum as it is.

    It took me forever just to figure out how to change my avatar and signature; I still don't quite know what all that stuff in my profile is supposed to be for. (We have "friends" like facebook?)

    My own thoughts, I would not ask "advanced" advice from an internet forum; I'd go to my teacher, colleagues or people I can meet in real life.

    Although there are some very talented artists on this forum, there is a limit to the amount of instruction that can be conveyed through the medium of an internet forum.

    The main weakness I see is the limits of language in teaching a visual art.

    Hard enough for 2 dimensional art. But sculpture? Well short of video, that would be near impossible.

    Oh, and I'm certain the search function hates me.

    But seriously, there is a lot of *unorganized* information out there; there are threads I found immensely helpful years ago that have been buried underneath threads about "NSFW should I be eating pie and listening to Mozart while drawing naked pirate robot Viking ladies?"

    And my point about the search function still stands; it is not the best search function I have seen. I think the old forum had better search, but it also had less stuff.

    @Arshes Nei good tip about using google search to search the forum instead! I'll try that. Thank you!

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