Why are there no resources on female anatomy? - Page 2
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  1. #31
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    You're right. That post came out more biased than it should have. It's good to study anatomy for when you want to draw representations of anatomy. What doesn't show up in the picture doesn't need to be drawn in it.

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    "What would you do with a 6ft amazon like me?"

    ...?...

    [...be good, Alj...ignore this...ignoooore this...sigh...]

    ...actually, if history really does repeat itself, we'd be divorced by now...

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    I tried looking for naked women on the internet too but found none, sadly.

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    no naked photos on internet? ... woah.. since when?

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    Watch porn. Kill two birds with one stone.

    eat-drink-fuck-draw-sleep. repeat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    "What would you do with a 6ft amazon like me?"

    ...?...

    [...be good, Alj...ignore this...ignoooore this...sigh...]

    ...actually, if history really does repeat itself, we'd be divorced by now...
    Sigh.

    Note to self: don'tcommentdon'tcommentdon'tcomment...



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    Quote Originally Posted by SDNolan View Post
    Watch porn. Kill two birds with one stone.
    Deliberately misunderstands - What? Snuff movies?


    I didn't think it was possible to be called an artist when you have nothing to say. It's like being a writer who publishes individual words as books and expects to be praised for it.
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    Yeah, i know i'm silly, there are naked women everywhere on the internet, lol. but what i really wanted was those darned female skeletons side, front and back. thnx for not making this completely embarrasing by being funny, you guys and gals, especially you @ReneOchoNueve's and the person who posted the caps lock pick. Serious Lolz.

    Anywayz, good news. The search is over! (my artsy pals helped find almost exactly what i was looking for!)

    http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/602822 (note the 360 panorama thingies, includes skeleton, flayed and fleshed figure)

    http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/In_a_Nutshell.html (female profile AND, erm i mean "and" front view plus the same for the male, YES!!)

    http://catalog.nucleusmedicalmedia.c...&Action=Search -- (fiddle with the search engine + specify which view lateral, anterior, etc)

    This'll keep me busy So Happy! Thnx for tolerating me, everyone, hugs all around!

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    http://www.archive.org/stream/nouvel...n17/mode/thumb

    ^ this has plates on a ton of gender-based anatomy including skeletal proportions, fatty pads, surface anatomy and nice lifedrawing pictures.

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    On the Turbosquid link I got really confused...for a second there I thought I was looking at a MALE skeleton! Horrors!

    Good luck with the medical degree. Actually, I kid, I mean if you are interested in going into scientific/medical illustration this is as good an approach as any.

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    t.n.t

    Yes, life drawing is great. But you really have to know what's inside of that beautiful body, at least to understand the difference in male and female anatomies.

    Actually, there are resources on female anatomy.
    I personally recommend the anatomy book that has been used by several generations of artists, Die Gestalt des Menschen by Gottfried Bammes.

    He not only compares male and female bodies, but also provides charts with schema and photos of little children, teenagers, etc.

    As always, a picture is worth a thousand words.
    So below are the images from that book.

    The only "little problem" is this manual doesn't exist in English, it's available in German and Russian. In any case, it's the visuals that are the most important in this manual.

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    The very last image is one of my favorite in the book.
    As Bammes mentioned, no matter the grotesque of this image, Rubens had managed to follow all the proportions and shows the incredible knowledge of human anatomy.

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    @Faust - brilliant! thnx alot. I've heard of richer, i've read artistic anatomy (which i found out about through Robert Hale) i assumed the ones i didn't get that were written by him wouldn't be worth it since i can't read french, but the images speak for themselves. i may buy this in future! you've given me week's worth of drawing material thanks. i'm aware he also has several other volumes i will now check out.

    @BOOK GURU - yeah, Gottfried Bammes, the bee's knees of anatomy. I know his superb books very well and thanks for mentioning him. of course, the language barrier is very difficult to overcome and i find it irritating that a whole field of information is out of my reach. About a month or so ago, i found out a great portion of his works will be available in english in october this year`, so i'm holding out till then.
    Nonetheless, they are wonderful drawings and i realized sometime after i posted this that bammes had 99.9% of what i needed and decided i should either find a different source on female anatomy and study it immediately or study some more male anatomy till the english text comes out later this year (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide...tt_at_ep_dpt_4), i guess just to 'understand' the images.

    thanks for the responses.

    I don't have a sketch book yet because i don't own a scanner (plus i'm pretty bad so there goes my motive) but in return i just post some "anatomy thread thingys"
    - http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=202800
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    t.n.t,

    You'll have to wait a little longer for this book in English.
    The link you provided is for the book that is mixture of "some" drawings by Bammes, some by his students, some pages were simply taken from his original Die Gestalt Des Menchen.

    I've never seen that book in German, so I really doubt its originality.

    In any case, back one year ago I was writing in one of my posts that we were hoping to get Russian rights for the Die Gestalt Des Menchen, but one of our partners got it first.
    So our editorial department has acquired recently (only 2 weeks ago) about English rights (yes, this sounds weird, but we wanted to publish this book in English IN RUSSIA, as we find it strange this book didn't exist in English for such a long time).
    We received a response from the copyright holder that the English rights for Die Gestalt Des Menchen have been acquired very recently. They didn't provide us with the name of a publisher, but I assume this book will finally appear in English, though I'm not sure how soon.
    But this has nothing to do with the book you've mentioned.

    I didn't want to discourage you, but I just want to warn you about the fact there are too many substitutes for real Bammes books. As far as I know, there are only FOUR original books written by Bammes himself. (Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

    And, IMHO, studying drawing by Bammes - not a really good idea. At least, our students have always used his reference books for studying anatomy only.

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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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    His books are primarily to be used as a resource on anatomy, be it human or animal. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And please, it's "Die Gestalt des Menschen".



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    Kjesta,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjesta View Post
    His books are primarily to be used as a resource on anatomy, be it human or animal. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And please, it's "Die Gestalt des Menschen".
    First, my apologies. I have the right spelling (see my post above), but this time instead of copy&past I've typed it. I'm sorry.

    It drives me crazy when foreigners say "Na zdorovie" instead of "Za zdorovie" for "Cheers"... It's impossible to change it and I don't know where the wrong saying originally came from. So I understands the feelings. But hey, we all are foreigners, here or there.

    In regards of Bammes, yes that was my point exactly.
    But if you pay attention, many of his "books" (which, again have nothing to do with originals) are advertised as drawing manuals. That brings a mess in reader's understanding of the whole purpose of his books - to use them only as artistic anatomy reference, "nothing more, nothing less".

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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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    Nah, it's all good, just thought I'd mention it so people googling for it won't wind up confused.

    I don't know where that drawing manual stuff comes from, I've never seen Bammes advertised as such here. He does have a bunch of good techniques to enable one to better draw and understand anatomy (his stamps technique is pretty interesting) but he's not a second Loomis or something.



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    Ok. Let's make this all clear.

    With such a nickname as mine, I just have to list those 4 books here, to stop the confusion.
    Again, there were only FOUR original Bammes books.
    So since their first publication in German, how they've been printed and published, by whom, in what portions, in which proportions, and under what titles - it's the magic of advertising and a mystery of marketing to me.

    These are only ORIGINAL Bammes books:

    1. Die Gestalt des Menschen

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    2. Tiere zeichnen

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    3. Künstleranatomie und bildnerischer Ausdruck

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    4. Menschen zeichnen

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    @Book Guru, oddly enough, you answered the question i was about to ask (which books are genuine works of his). Thanks for clearing that up, you saved me some cash and more importantly, time.

    If it's no bother, could you tell me when the authentic english translations are released or atleast an estimate of when they will be, please? I ask because i'm torn as to whether i should buy the untranslated version now, or to buy the translated version sometime in the distant future.

    Also, which of these books apart from "Der nackte Mensch" (which, although a "remake", is the only one i own, although my friend occasionally lends me the one on animal anatomy, which i think is one of the books that is not originally made by Bammes) has information on the female figure. Even though Der nackte mensch has plenty of information on the subject, i feel you can never have too much knowledge.

    Last edited by t.n.t; August 1st, 2011 at 05:40 PM. Reason: few typos
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    I think its the best idea to study male anatomy from Richer, Peck, Bridgeman etc. classic books. Then using the knowledge of the diffrences like wider pelvis, smaller mass on the joints etc. to convert the data that you have learned when studying male anatomy, to fit the idea of typical female anatomy. Its really not that much different. I mean it differs mostly on the little proportion things on bones and the "fat areas", like buttocks and breasts. Its not like the there would be extra muscles or huge proportion diffrences.

    Heres some nude photographs that are suitable for sketching. Some are male, some female. Dont know if this is helpful.
    http://inspirationalartworks.blogspo...orefrence.html

    And I think the main thing is drawing females from imagination or refrence alot. To memorize the typical female proportions, anatomiacal landmarks etc. basic stuff.

    I mean theres definetly big diffrences on male and female body seen trough human eyes. Because we connect so much feelings to the sex diffrences and other little things. So I think learning to draw typical female or male body really well has alot to do also with trying to pick up little things from female and male bodies, that you think are gender specific and then drawing those alot from mind. Because if you look for example Paul Richers or Elliot Goldfingers anatomy books there is not really that much info on gender diffrences.

    Sorry for my poor english
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    Ok. Let's make this all clear.

    With such a nickname as mine, I just have to list those 4 books here, to stop the confusion.
    Again, there were only FOUR original Bammes books.
    So since their first publication in German, how they've been printed and published, by whom, in what portions, in which proportions, and under what titles - it's the magic of advertising and a mystery of marketing to me.

    These are only ORIGINAL Bammes books:

    1. Die Gestalt des Menschen

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    2. Tiere zeichnen

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    3. Künstleranatomie und bildnerischer Ausdruck

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    4. Menschen zeichnen

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    I have the first one. It has superb images. Bammes presents everything with clarity and accuracy. Iam mainly intrested in human anatomy. Do you know that what stuff is in the last two of those four "Künstleranatomie und bildnerischer Ausdruck" and "Menschen zeichnen". Does the stuff differ much from the first one "Die Gestalt des Menschen"?

    Sorry for my poor english
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  36. #51
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    Menschen zeichnen is being published in English as the Complete Guide to Life Drawing. The publisher is Search Press and it is supposed to come out in October: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide...dp/1844486907/
    Hopefully, if it does well, the others, especially Die Gestalt des Menschen, will follow.



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    t.n.t,

    Well... Elwell riding his fire horse was first, as always.
    Yes, he's right.

    We "investigated" this.
    So the Complete Guide to Life Drawing is the original Bammes book #4 (Menschen zeichnen), translated into English.
    We just received a PDF file of the English version, and I guarantee it's the same book.

    I really don't understand why publishers change the covers though.
    If they think it's better from their marketing perspective, I personally think it's bad from my marketing perspective as these 4 books are usually recognized by their covers.

    Now we're trying to find out who're the guys who've purchased English right for his best book, Die Gestalt des Menschen. I hope they didn't do it as a pure money investment, but indeed plan to publish it soon. I'll let you know.

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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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    Sorry to stray slightly away from the topic of Gottfried Bammes but i found another excellent resource! No skeletons or flayed figures unfortunately but at least it gives living female nudes front, side and back! It gets better, there are photos of a variety of races (i've always wanted to expand my "Artistic vocabulary" - i mean the variety of people i can draw from memory). EEEK!

    I'm talking about Akira Gomi, a photographer who explores beauty in the human figure and/or head.

    Links:
    his site & personal works - http://akiragomi.tumblr.com/

    the works of his that are particular interest to one studying anatomy - http://figuredrawings.com/linksanatomygomi.html (it's funny i've known figuredrawings.com since i began figure drawing, but i had no idea about this gem)

    Some of his work on heads/faces - http://untitledhelena.blogspot.com/2...kira-gomi.html

    I think we've uncovered too many resources now, lol. I give thanks to Akira Gomi for providing the world with this resource (and the models too, i suppose).

    P.S. i've also come across the idea of using 3d modelling software, (primarily DAZ studio) which offers skeleton models, "muscle maps" (pretty much a flayed figure) and finally a model of a living figure, either Male or female. Daz studio is free, so are some of the models, but there are luxuries you may have to pay for, e.g. the male figure must be purchased whereas the female one is free, i think.

    Last edited by t.n.t; August 3rd, 2011 at 10:16 AM. Reason: Additional information
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    Sorry to still keep on the subject of Bammes, but since buying gestalt des menschen I've had my eye on Große Tieranatomie at the same bookstore. There's no cover picture or description, just a hefty pricetag. So, is this not an original bammes book? It's published in germany in 2010 with 502 pages. There's no book called tieren zeichnen in the store, but all three other originals seem to be available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suncut View Post
    Sorry to still keep on the subject of Bammes, but since buying gestalt des menschen I've had my eye on Große Tieranatomie at the same bookstore. There's no cover picture or description, just a hefty pricetag. So, is this not an original bammes book? It's published in germany in 2010 with 502 pages. There's no book called tieren zeichnen in the store, but all three other originals seem to be available.
    Well, after looking it up I can say that "Große Tieranatomie" is in my local library and as far as I know, it's by Bammes. Even if it weren't, though, it's a terrific resource and you should get it anyway It covers cows, apes, horses, big cats, dogs, and I think deer and pigs... Though I'm not sure with the last two, it's been a while since I've had the book here.



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    Having read most of the text in "Die Gestalt des Menschen" I would say it is worth waiting for it to come out in English. That said, I hope the translation will apply to modern use of language.

    Most Germans have no idea what he is talking about as his use of german is so archaic; but basically the first 150 pages are a huge rant about Loomis, Hogarth and Bridgman and how the great masters anatomy got lost over the time, and the rest is in-depth explanation of how the joints function, why muscles operate in certain ways etc. Now that is clearly the interesting part, but a part explained by Rubins (just to name an example) as well.
    The chapters on proportions and measuring thereof are what in my mind distinguishes Bammes from most anatomy books, which only cover (if at all) this topic briefly with the normal 8-heads rule. Additionally to that, Bammes combines technical observations, reference photos and works of the masters to explain anatomy- I cannot use it exclusively, but it is a jewel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordLouis View Post
    Most Germans have no idea what he is talking about as his use of german is so archaic;
    Very true. When I picked it up at age 13 I got a cramp in my brain and focused on the pictures only, which are very telling by themselves. Still, there's a wealth of gold to be found in the texts once you work your way through them.



    Check these out too:
    Rotor - GoGoJoJo

    "Limited drawing skills are OK if they are offset by a fearless commitment to putting images on paper."

    "I mean, What is a chair? It's an anti-gravity device." Glen Keane

    "The difficult part is continuously realizing when you've stopped enjoying the process, and re-aligning yourself. It's kind of like meditation/being an art ninja..." ceddo
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    Kai H,

    Sorry, I've overlooked your question.
    I'm not sure about #3 (Künstleranatomie und bildnerischer Ausdruck), as I've never seen it, only know the cover.
    About the last one (Menschen zeichnen), as it's been mentioned, just recently was translated into English. It is a good reference book on female anatomy and includes many drawings of women to relate to.
    But honestly, from quite objective professional opinion, I'd rather recommend to study with number one, as this is the most what you'll need to get the artistic anatomy knowledge. Besides, as I've mentioned, I'm not really crazy about Bammes' own drawings, I think you should avoid drawing like this (but please, don't take me wrong! His drawings are still much-much better and more professional than the drawings I see in most manuals today).
    If you have a good visual memory, you'll find at least several Bammes' anatomical explanations in each and every book on anatomy nowadays. No, they don't simply "scan" Bammes, but they "copy" it year after year, book after book.

    ---

    LordLouis,

    Aren't you exaggerating a little?
    "150 pages"??
    The 1st chapter is called "Artistic Anatomy: Past and Present", and it has a very valuable information on anatomical studies during Middle Ages, Renaissance, 18-19 centuries, and how it's been taught at different schools.
    And only TWO pages are dedicated to the "Anatomy in English-speaking countries", with only ONE paragraph on Loomis. Though, these two pages is probably enough to lower the sales of Loomis books in the near future.

    With all the rest of your post I completely agree.

    ---

    Kjesta,

    If they make the English translation as good as we have it now in Russian, I'm sure this book will finally be not only looked at but also read.
    Of course, there is still quite dry academic style that is used throughout the book, but I do enjoy it much more than nowadays "bla-bla-bla-about-nothing-I'm-here-to-edutain-you" texts.

    www.4-art.org - art educational books
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Faust~ View Post
    http://www.archive.org/stream/nouvel...n17/mode/thumb

    ^ this has plates on a ton of gender-based anatomy including skeletal proportions, fatty pads, surface anatomy and nice lifedrawing pictures.
    Fantastic find ~Faust~ ! I didn't know that any of Richer's Nouvelle Anatomie series was available online. The main page here has a link to the pdf, and as usual you can also download a zip archive of much higher res jp2 images (I use IrfanView to batch convert jp2>jpg)

    http://www.archive.org/details/nouvelleanatomie02rich

    I spotted Volume 1 and 3 of the same series online at gallica.bnf. Volume 1 on the male covers much the same ground as the Anatomie Artistique [1890] that was published in English by Robert Beverley Hale, but volume three looks to have some really useful diagrams of the figure in action:

    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5542332x.langEN

    Another old book that covers differences between male and female figures in detail is Figure Drawing by Richard Hatton [1904], available very cheaply from Dover.

    http://www.amazon.com/Figure-Drawing.../dp/0486213773

    and even cheaper as a pdf from here:

    http://figure-drawings.com/figuredrawing.html

    Thanks for those links too, t.n.t, and also for your thread of anatomy links:

    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=202800

    You say you're rubbish at figure drawing, but I suspect you're already better than some of the clowns on this thread.

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    I thought I'd add a few sample images and pages from Hatton's Figure Drawing relating to male and female artistic anatomy, since this knowledge doesn't seem to be as widespread here as I would have assumed.

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