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Thread: Cris Ortega - Plagiarism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    he b trollin'
    But the question is, why specifically me? He's only posted in threads I've been viewing or have responded to O_o.

    Trolls are mysterious.

    BLAHBLAHBLAH
     

  2. #62
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    Interesting...

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Select View Post
    and also because a lot of them over paint their own reference photo`s
    There is nothing wrong with this... you can paint over / warp / trace / whatever else your own reference photo's as much as you want

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    Quote Originally Posted by Select View Post
    I do hear a lot how sad it is because these people have "good understanding of technique and anatomy", but I have to ask really?,

    if they trace and over-paint how does that show a good understanding of anatomy? I looked at her older stuff and she has clearly traced figures with light sources on the leaves not matching the body or other objects decorating the scene..that doesn't show good understanding of much in the artistic realm, the technique that is good is only in the ability to blend and blur and color match your chunks of photo`s so its hard to tell that's what you have done, although weekend Photoshop course at the local college will get you that far if you are a quick study.

    . I think the real skill is the ability to suppress their own conscience and tell their fans without guilt its all done from scratch.

    My reason for picking on gender, is because there is a lot more of them... then just the ones busted you read about on these forums, they just haven't all been exposed yet, and a lot of them will never get caught as long as they dont have to work in a public work setting or at a in house job. and also because a lot of them over paint their own reference photo`s so you arnt going to ever find their target material. for every 1 that gets exposed I feel confident 5 more are going under the radar blanked in shield of ooohs and awwwws by their fans.

    It would all be a non issue if they just called what they did what it really is and stop saying its painted from scratch, but then if they said that the rest of us wouldnt be going wow that soo amazing with jaws on the floor, we would only say its pretty good and move on.
    Ah ok. Sorry. We were not speaking about same t hing. I understood you were referring to pure old school realism. Not some today's tracers. To me, a tracer or a someone that calls himself or herself a matte painter, but actually is not (matte painting is complex and needs quite some skills), and is of the group you are defining. My point in this matter is, that realism, the true one, that which many of us do our best to accomplish, means starting from scratch, not let the drawing ability let drive what you want to express, but be a solid helper for it. never was referring to this relatively recent group of people .Have meet and known personally one, she was very respected, and said by other artists that she was good.... and remember she showing me a lot of artwork for advice, me pointing her (sincerelly, with the best intention ever, not for bashing) automatically lots of basic problems, stuff like a too big hand, stuff like that even, or no knowledge on how to even basicly draw a foot, and how she got angry everytime, even when she was asking. Is not this Cris. Even one day when I discovered what she had really done (heh, tracing blatantly) she said "hey, don't discover my tricks!!" ...looool...I mean, must be a pitty to go needing that kind of...I'm no perfect , no one is, but what magic has that? I don't get it. )

    Since then and some more cases, am realizing photoshop and stuff is making some people stay away from real drawing... Which is hard but lovely at a time...

    Oh, about the gender, dunno if were you or other one who said, but can't agree on women having less capability on 3d perception...I studied that theory a bit in F. Arts, and well, mostly what I got is that due to the sides of the brain, there was a tendency of having developed more functions than others. But that stuff gets super complex, compensated, with milllions of factors,etc. IMHO the stduy is just a theory and over simplified as is not matching reality. I have just now in mind a pair of women, recently known, that make my jaw beat the table loudly for the amount of skill in good all drawing that they show... Specially one of them. But only to put an example.

    On the matter of the artist accused here (and imo too much over all internet) , well, I have been seen that yep, in several drawings the original was better, although is disguised and treated better than other cases that i have seen, way more horrible. But for example, the painting techniques of one woman, Denon or sth like that, that supposedly she traced quite, are superior, in color, subtle touch, and drawing. Even so caught some drawing errors in the original, and that's the worse part of tracing: not corrected in the supposedly traced version... But imho she seems capable of good drawing, I guess all that is done at uber speed, to bring the food plate to the table... Not, how you said? Being a white knight, I have an ugly sensation seing everyone accusing someone who's not present, happening not just in this thread, but in so many on internet, I have been informed by ppl who is following this case... It's gonna make a real problem for her, while I have seen way worse things done by other people that get forgiven (or non detected in most cases,sadly) easily by the masses...

    Last edited by dracanidus; July 12th, 2011 at 10:31 PM.
     

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  7. #65
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    If I remember correctly artists like Melanie intentionally does add imperfections to her women. Mainly because everyone tries to make these "pristine" beauties and she and I remember other artists stating that differences makes them look more realistic by having facial flaws.

     

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    solution Im sure this is the FIX...

    I guess then a lot of the issue here could be boiled down to art and technology getting farther ahead of it self then our own language, we have evolved withing our art communities a style of, and yes i would call it art, even though I light torches as much as anyone else when someone gets outed for swipes over-paints and so forth, but what we need is to label this "technique" a proper name, calling it "painting" isn't fair to digital and traditional painters, as it requires a lot less time and effort and understanding, yet it produces beautiful results that obviously the majority find appealing... you cant call it a matte painting because unlike a matte painting this new arts goal is look like it was painted and to get as close to photo realistic without actually being the photo(s) it is based off. so then I ask you, what should this form of art be called?.

    If properly named , witch hunts wont be necessary, people can compete in this class fairly, because judging and comparing the work of a traditional painter to this kind of work is like judging Leonardo`s detail work in his brushwork to the latest downloadable texture pack in Maya in terms of artistic merit.. we have separate classes for 3d and 2d generated work in books and contests why is this new class of art sharing the same playing field at the later when it surely is not the same thing.

    Lets brand this and fix the problem.

     

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    I really don't like that kind of art anyway, the wispy dreamlike feel with overly smooth airbrushed skin, no good hard edges in shadow, lighting or form and the feeling that all the random objects in the picture don't come together well.

    Those elements really seem to be the give-away for these types of "artists".
    What also annoys me about these situations is that people will kick up a rabble for a few months, then it will fade and the artist will either continue with business or go into hiding and re-emerge as a new name.

     

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    It seems like plagiarists just get a speeding ticket for theft. If you ever check in on two bit hacks that got busted in the past, they're all doing fine. Greg Land still works for Marvel, Sam Flores is still sucking all the way to the bank. Rob Liefield is obviously less popular, but he's still making homoerotic comics. I think Nick Simmons is one of the few in artist jail. I think the Shephard Fairy bubble bursted, but he made a carreer by ganking images in broad daylight. Last I heard he took a hit in the checkbook over that.

     

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    Select, I get that there are a lot of frauds still out there, I'm just not sure why you think they're all women. I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there jacking good folks' art as well. Being a lady does not make you predisposed to tracing, or using a certain painting style, or stealing. Any experiences with a single oversensitive, lousy female artist are not by any means representative of all female artists.
    There's so much varied work out there that generalizations about form or color and gender are really just personal opinion, and I don't think the left brain-right brain bit is relevant enough to have such a profound effect on someone's work.
    As a buddy pointed out, a lot of early airbrushed work was inspired by the predigital artist Luis Royo, so it's hardly a feminine habit to produce that kind of work.

    Regarding the other issue: Even if this artist is a hack, it still takes some knowledge to combine all the sources she's stealing from, and paint in a way that, for a while, didn't strike people as conspicuous or suspect. It's obvious from the work on her site that she had potential, so what everyone's been saying is that it's too bad she decided to take a shortcut by stealing work. I don't think that's a leap.

     

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    blergghh, disgusting, i love painting, i love drawing, i basically just love creating something nice out of my own head, really dont get why people do this...

     

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    I was like bleh whatever but this one is just sad lol

    didn't even try

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dyBFCyuKpR...s1600/hima.jpg

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ButteredToast View Post
    Select, I get that there are a lot of frauds still out there, I'm just not sure why you think they're all women. I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there jacking good folks' art as well. Being a lady does not make you predisposed to tracing, or using a certain painting style, or stealing. Any experiences with a single oversensitive, lousy female artist are not by any means representative of all female artists.
    There's so much varied work out there that generalizations about form or color and gender are really just personal opinion, and I don't think the left brain-right brain bit is relevant enough to have such a profound effect on someone's work.
    As a buddy pointed out, a lot of early airbrushed work was inspired by the predigital artist Luis Royo, so it's hardly a feminine habit to produce that kind of work.

    Regarding the other issue: Even if this artist is a hack, it still takes some knowledge to combine all the sources she's stealing from, and paint in a way that, for a while, didn't strike people as conspicuous or suspect. It's obvious from the work on her site that she had potential, so what everyone's been saying is that it's too bad she decided to take a shortcut by stealing work. I don't think that's a leap.
    *-* Of course I am not saying its ONLY a female thing to cheat.. but just like farting while eating chips and drinking beer while watching a football game in a basement full of posters of hot chicks tends to be something predominantly habituated by males,...well then glossy eyed, jewel encrusted, lace wearing, near photo realistic over paints "tends" to be a practice frequented by "mostly" females, and a most of these artists are doing the same tricks of the trade, they just haven't been nabbed because they have learned from those that have been exposed, and one or two of them are actually just the alter ego of another that has been exposed and since disappeared.

    as for skill, I believe it takes skill, yes, ..it also takes a certain degree of skill to tie ones own shoe laces, the level of skill assumed spent creating said artwork being admired is not conducive to the skill that actually went into creating said artwork.

    Example

    a few years ago after another popular and publicly outed over-painter was being debated upon on this very site... out of angry curiosity I made an alter ego on deviant (female alter ego to be exact lol so maybe you are right about the ratio not being right lol) and started by "over painting" a chick I took a photo of at a coffee shop while she was playing through the window with her puppy tied on the outside of the shop (without her permission i should add, bad me) but it was a unique pose ...and altering nothing with the exception of pasting on some butter fly wings (ripped from a friends facebook photo album,.. you see i learned from the linda incident before that) and dropping the two elements on a color matched forest scene ran a glow filter on parts of the character, and then lightly airbrushed and smudged the crap out of it.

    total time start to finish 35-40 minutes not counting the day i took the photo but then i hadn't intended on taking the photo for that very reason..had I, it would have been better..given I was experimenting with different filter effects, I did add a few sloppy brush stroked here and there to "magically erase all doubts of its authenticity" lol. was it as good as some that have been busted?..no,. but only another hours more work from being so..and it was close enough.... posted it on DA and wouldn't you know it the praise started flowing in, with wouldn't you have it...comparisons to many other similar yet highly regarded award winning artists..to be fair there were two guys that called bullshit on my little "doodle" but they were washed away in a tide of praise and ass kissing. I closed the profile but was amazed at what i had learned, and it did give me a better eye for picking out others who paint this way.

    I showed a photographer friend of mine who runs a photo studio one town over from mine the profile and ranted how sad it is how you really have to question everything these days in this the digital age of art. I showed her infront of several of her friends in her office how easy it was by doing a quick paint on a head of a chick she had been working with that day... She asked for the picture I did and wanted to know if she could play around with the same ideas perhaps offer it to her customers then..the conversation drifted towards.. maybe even remake the profile of the alter ego and sell her photo manips through a fake web site...there was no hesitation..no ethical thoughts..just oooh this is easy and i can get paid and praise!, she has no artistic back ground just a lot of experience working in Photoshop retouching and swapping skys in wedding photography..all you need to know to be the next freelance photo realistic cover artist.

    like I said... there needs to be a new label for this kind of art, and it needs to be recognized for what it is, NOT what it pretends to be!. it is being mis categorized.

    Sadly I know there are a hand full of lurkers that will read that experience and are already taking up wacom pens and getting their PS open to tinker and take a stab at it. and they will.

    not hard, you can do it, you just don't because you respect what you do. others dont..

     

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    Select. This thread won't teach people to plagiarize. Watch Freakanomics, people find ways to cheat a system all the time.

    Then again there's some real underlying sexism in your posts...that kind of unintended one that comes off more sinister in a sense and condescending

    The point is the subject matter of gender is pretty irrelevant. People will steal art. It's like complaining that mostly males steal comic book art and in the end, it doesn't matter.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mearsh View Post
    and u' be havin' a hentai avatar. ;3
    That may be a Yodo artwork, but Bastard!! itself is not hentai. FYI.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jie Kageshinzo View Post
    That may be a Yodo artwork, but Bastard!! itself is not hentai. FYI.
    I dunno what my avatar has to do with anything. Bastard does have hentai and the creator Hagiwara even makes hentai doujinshi of his own work, but it's completely irrelevant to this thread.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Select View Post
    I had read a study a few years back stating that females and men differed a great deal in their ability to view and render three dimensional subject matter, males have a vastly superior ability to visualize three dimensional space compared to females
    Actually they discovered that the difference in spatial awareness can be greatly reduced through training.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...40808/abstract
    This suggests that at least some of the ability men display in this field is simply due to the kinds of tasks boys tend to engage in.

    However any conclusions that can be drawn from differences in ability are anecdotal at best. Women are considered to have superior language ability but you don't see me claiming that male writers crib their work. Nor do I suspect every male landscape digital artist of paintovers even though that's what the last couple plagiarists called out here did.

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    Has anyone actually approached 'Cris Ortega' with this issue? And I -do not- mean in a threatening manner, just to seriously get some kind of response on these pieces of evidence?
    Yes, I have. As some of you already guessed, she was (is) under a ton of pressure from her work. She's drawing nonstop and supporting her family with it, which seems to be very hard on her.

    No, I don't think the patchwork method is good. It is quite a dumb idea. I can't imagine that it actually saves a lot of work. But that's all I think about it.
    The whole witch hunt thing disgusts me. I don't want to be part of it. Yes, this blog disgusts me too. I was already repulsed by the Linda-witchhunt in 2007. Spreading awareness is one thing, but it's very scary how far some people will go. And we have now spread enough awareness. You too, Jason and Randis, on facebook. I think this is enough. Can we stop now? And close this thread?

    People will go very far sometimes. And that's much worse than stealing bits 'n pieces from other artists.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Select. This thread won't teach people to plagiarize. Watch Freakanomics, people find ways to cheat a system all the time.

    Then again there's some real underlying sexism in your posts...that kind of unintended one that comes off more sinister in a sense and condescending

    The point is the subject matter of gender is pretty irrelevant. People will steal art. It's like complaining that mostly males steal comic book art and in the end, it doesn't matter.
    sexism? really? ...not good and not my intent or personal character to be honest with you, I will have to watch out for that, my apologies for offending, and thank you for mentioning the way I come off. -exposing my "sinister" side could really hamper plans for world domination!.

    and don't get me wrong I was NEVER trying to say cheating is more evident by a specific gender, (shoot me if i ever do) no, only that with in a very specific subject matter in a limited area of art AND within a specific leap in quality that it appeared to be an indicator for future assumptions on given artists.

    I was thinking along the lines of the correlation between serial killers and how 99% of them are male. clearly there are differences between gender in some areas.

    You are so right that gender is in fact totally irrelevant in the end, please if you will understand that my observation of such is based on the limited pool of examples within a very small niche of art and the small sample of each gender I have discussed this issue with in my personal circle. Had I encounter more feed back on this thread that shared a similar observation I would have cemented my reasoning as a more global phenomenon, but sharing my assumptions and the resulting feed back has changed my stance completely on this issue of gender.

    Given that the bulk of my closest friends are overwhelmingly female, I may have become overly comfortable in that setting to making said assumptions out loud, not realizing my gender now puts me in the unfortunate position as coming off as sexist. take away the fact that you know I am a male and maybe you will see my comments are not a sinister as they appear, but still incorrect in observation

     

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    Except we're not talking about serial killers and you're making sweeping generalizations based on "data" that is really just you *deciding* that these girls plagiarize. Even if you've seen more girls using a particular style, it says nothing about how likely they are to paint over others' photos or art. Gender really is irrelevant to this thread, so stop trying to make it relevant.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by ButteredToast View Post
    Except we're not talking about serial killers and you're making sweeping generalizations based on "data" that is really just you *deciding* that these girls plagiarize. Even if you've seen more girls using a particular style, it says nothing about how likely they are to paint over others' photos or art. Gender really is irrelevant to this thread, so stop trying to make it relevant.
    I thought I had? I guess you didn't read my entire post. I see apologies arnt easily accepted around these parts lol ....of course scolding me for my sexist post does make for a great way into the favors of the ladies on this site nice...in that case go ahead let me have it! wink wink

     

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    hmm...

    It's sorta like this.

    "There are a lot of Black people in sports" - racial observation. Nothing really bad about the statement to be honest.

    "there are a lot of Black people in sports because this is what they're probably inclined to perform in this field" - gets to step over the line.

    It's the fact your posts weren't making the observation of what girls may draw, but the underlying message about them being the ones to steal or encourage plagiarism because there's girls that draw this stuff.

    It's like implying that all women should be watched at the lingerie section because obviously women wear bras and will be the likely candidates to steal them

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Select View Post
    I thought I had? I guess you didn't read my entire post. I see apologies arnt easily accepted around these parts lol ....of course scolding me for my sexist post does make for a great way into the favors of the ladies on this site nice...in that case go ahead let me have it! wink wink
    Dude - not everone on teh internet is male. Just fyi.

     

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    Induction has the problem of being disproved by a single observation. If you see one million white swans and make the claim that all swans are white, all that is needed to prove you wrong is a black swan.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    hmm...

    It's sorta like this.

    "There are a lot of Black people in sports" - racial observation. Nothing really bad about the statement to be honest.

    "there are a lot of Black people in sports because this is what they're probably inclined to perform in this field" - gets to step over the line.

    It's the fact your posts weren't making the observation of what girls may draw, but the underlying message about them being the ones to steal or encourage plagiarism because there's girls that draw this stuff.

    It's like implying that all women should be watched at the lingerie section because obviously women wear bras and will be the likely candidates to steal them
    I hear what you are saying, and I still feel my point was and is still misinterpreted as an attack on a gender

    Correlation does not imply causation: via wiki
    "Correlation does not imply causation" (related to "ignoring a common cause" and questionable cause) is a phrase used in science and statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not automatically imply that one causes the other (though correlation is necessary for linear causation in the absence of any third and countervailing causative variable, and can indicate possible causes or areas for further investigation; in other words, correlation can be a hint)

    even that kind of statement regarding race is dodgy and something to tip toe around when in a sensitive environment,

    one can make the exact same statement about the number of African Americans in the U.S. that are in jail compared to Caucasian, does saying that statistic automatically mean the observer is stating that African Americans are more predisposed to commit crime?. no that would be attacking the observer which I feel is happening here . but knowing that data, when one visits an American prison they wont be surprised to see that ratio of "whites to blacks", it has nothing to do with race just like our discussion the cheating has nothing to do with gender, its the problem with the bigger system, and it possible helps ask more questions.

    im trying to do two things at once here so I don't know if that made sense.

    Remember I am not talking about cheating as the subject matter, I am talking about the individual cases within this particular field of art and its unique respective subject matter!, on a whole I will say there are WAYYYY more MALES busted for swipes, cheating and unethical practices within the art communities and that is an understatement.

    I hate sexist peoples attitudes as much as you, and I even said I hated having to make such a statement. I hope you agree that sometimes a little pushing of the PC boundaries can make for interesting conversation and possibly open a few different perspectives, maybe even illuminate.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    Induction has the problem of being disproved by a single observation. If you see one million white swans and make the claim that all swans are white, all that is needed to prove you wrong is a black swan.
    The same for bears..not all of them in the wild are going to kill and eat you, but its a safe bet to use that blanked reason to not go up and hug the first bear you see.

     

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    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Quote Originally Posted by Select View Post
    I hear what you are saying, and I still feel my point was and is still misinterpreted as an attack on a gender

    I hate sexist peoples attitudes as much as you, and I even said I hated having to make such a statement. I hope you agree that sometimes a little pushing of the PC boundaries can make for interesting conversation and possibly open a few different perspectives, maybe even illuminate.
    Yes cuz, "jewel encrusted, glossy eyes" art drawn by females needs to be discussed how much gender plays a factor in this kind of plagiarism :rollseyes:

    Oh sorry, were you trying to protect me from something. How gentlemanly of you. *curtseys*

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Yes cuz, "jewel encrusted, glossy eyes" art drawn by females needs to be discussed how much gender plays a factor in this kind of plagiarism :rollseyes:

    Oh sorry, were you trying to protect me from something. How gentlemanly of you. *curtseys*
    LOL now you got it!, now git back in yer kitchen and make me a sandwich!





    *oh god please don't make me have to point out that was a joke*

     

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    She has nothing original to show and yet she is popular. Yes that sounds quite typical.

    I hope this thread doesn't give any students the idea you should not copy work by hand. In the atelier, the master copy drawing and the master copy cast drawing are important methods in the French Academic training camp which inherits its pedigree from Michelangelo. These are done in a live enviroment under the watchful eye of the master artist.

    Even collages from old master works are accepted in the publishing industry, as I found out recently when examining a tarot I was thinking of buying (The Golden Tarot - disappointingly only a well done collage of medieval works) . It is not right to copy from other journeyman artists - they will not teach you good habits in drawing, and it is ethically irresponsible as they are struggling to make a living and should be the only ones to benefit from the fruits of their labor.


    There is nothing wrong with this... you can paint over / warp / trace / whatever else your own reference photo's as much as you want
    Agreed, no one except the artist themselves should have a problem with it. It is good to develop excellent draftsmanship early on, so in my opinion tracing should only be used as a time saving exercise after one has mastered the basics of triangulation, measurement, angle and line. I don't even trace over my own photos as I have learned both from warning and experience that draftsmanship is a decaying skill - if you do not use it you will lose it.

    If the perpetrator here wasn't such a git I would feel sorry for her - the freedom to "draw and paint whatever you like" is something she does not posses.

    Last edited by Izi; July 13th, 2011 at 05:36 PM.
    sehertu mannu narāṭu ina pānāt šagapīru ningishzidda
    abrahadabra
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    If I remember correctly artists like Melanie intentionally does add imperfections to her women. Mainly because everyone tries to make these "pristine" beauties and she and I remember other artists stating that differences makes them look more realistic by having facial flaws.
    And that'd be perfectly right. But I was just thinking of a foot which would not be actually possible (I just don't want to point any specific one)...Or an arm/hand not in right proportions between them, with body or the other hand... The bad thing is when someone copies it and still reproduces that.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Select View Post
    and I hate to generalize, but I cant look at art anymore of, "well above average" rendered or photo-realistic females in "contemplative poses " done by female artists, and not instantly think its swiped or over painted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Select View Post
    I hear what you are saying, and I still feel my point was and is still misinterpreted as an attack on a gender
    Please fuck off troll.


    Also, not saying I 100% agree with this, but I think it's something worth keeping in mind. How copyright laws may vary from country to country and something I immediately thought of when I saw this thread:

    Section 17(2)(b) of the Copyright Act of Canada provides “that an artist who does not retain the copyright in a work may use certain materials used to produce that work to produce a subsequent work, without infringing copyright in the earlier work, if the subsequent work taken as a whole does not repeat the main design of the previous work.”
    via: http://queenston.tumblr.com/post/5614624438

    I think it's great that CA has an eagle eye for this type of thing, but one of the best things you can do right now is not to support artists who do this and to spread awareness, not making personal attacks on family/gender/stupid shit/etc.

    Last edited by velderia; July 13th, 2011 at 05:48 PM.
     

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