these forums are filled with knowledge, tutorials, instructions, etc... yet people keep coming here without even doing some browsing, asking for something thats for the first time (due to the internet) accessible to them anyway. yet this obviously doesnt satisfy the specific needs. it needs to be sugarcoated, conditioned to serve individual tender feelings...
could you please, for once consider that your problems aint unique and that the answer could be found, putting in some effort yourself, instead of expecting someone else to tailor it, to suit your specific problem, or mental state?
currently i see a shitload of aspiring artists coming on here, obviously thinking that the community owes them something, or that it is the greatest joy to spend an afternoon, properly voicing a critique, while only 12 minutes of effort went into the creation of the picture at hand?
 only to be called out for pointing out the obvious, just because its not "add a 5 pixel wide touch of r54b47g07 with 80% opacity on the right calf 7 pixels above the ankle".... bleh
Last edited by sone_one; June 21st, 2011 at 03:14 PM.
I've noticed this, in fact I have very recently wrote a journal on deviantART about how beginning artists are becoming increasingly lazy (modern age maybe?) and surprisingly enough it got applauded big time (by both experienced as well as beginning artists). Any beginning artist who is serious enough about their craft will do the effort, because they have done their research and they understand what it takes. Those who aren't that serious don't really know what it takes and they think that as soon as they find the right software, the most expensive tablet and the biggest set of professional brushes from a very experienced artist, they will instantly be amazing.
Another problem is people thinking that there is no classification for good or bad art. I've had a series of extremely tiresome discussions about the matter on deviantART, where a group of people tried to argue that there is no beautiful or ugly, no good or bad in art, because all art created with the right intentions is art. For such people though you'd wonder what the hell they're even doing looking for critique.
I think a lot of people come here form deviant art and think " i wonder if the professionals at CA will think im as awesome as my deviant art friends" then they ask for crits... and get them.
And if this is about my thread, what was a problem i couldn't figure out after much testing, so i asked a question, which is what this place is for right?
... it better post this time
"The whole point of practice is to do it until you can do it right." - dpaint
Dont trust anything i say! I'm a noob.
My Noob Sketch Book
I guess this can be solved by putting a notice about what to do and what not to do or post in a particular forum. For example, Critiques forum should have atleast 60% completed work.
Cheer Up! World's a big place...
The reason I posted my sketch of the Bat-mouse-cat thing with a beak was because I felt that it represented where I currently was up to style and skill-wise at that stage and I was really feeling frustrated at how generic it looked. So I'm not just going to apply the critiques to one piece and then ignore them after that. The advice also helps my work improve as a whole.
I also only give critiques if something really bothers me. I hate nit-picking on tiny details. It's art! Not a space rocket!
Also, sometimes uploading the fairly early stages of a drawing can save a whole lotta hassle later on. If you upload a painting with glaring anatomical mistakes, it's nearly impossible to salvage. However, if the artist knows nothing at all about the basics, they would not be able to save work even at their sketching stage. I keep links in my signature for a reason. It's so much easier to post a "See sig, follow them all." to newbies who draw sparkledogs and balloon-headed anime characters.
Useful links for the Aspiring Artist
- A complete guide to drawing Anthro
- Figure and Gesture drawing practice
- CharacterDesigns - Nude Reference Photos
- Loomis Anatomy- Figure Drawing for all its Worth
- Drawing the Portrait
- 10 Top Composition Rules
- Chiseled Rocks' Musings - Fantastic tutorials on lighting and media maintenance
@ element1988: no its not about your thread specifically. its about the predominant prospect this subforum gets flooded with lately.
when this forum been invented, theres been a different approach. it got invented for users to get really tough indepth pointers for what they were doing (wrong)... assuming that they already had viewed most of whats been on here... i think thats been back in 2005. over time the need to have a "get pointers instead of asspats" section grew.
there are rules and pointers attached to this subforum.. instructions on how to handle this for both sides... the reviewer and the reciever. i think noone reads them anymore.
its mostly about "who gives a fuck about whats been said previously... im special and basically the hottest new shit on earth".
for me, whats once been the toughest and therefore most rewarding experience, degraded into a "i do what i want and because im an individual with feelings and specific needs, that needs to be respected" pile of bullshit. which is tiring and devaluating.
this could really be an excelent learning resource, yet both sides have to treat it with respect and care.
if youre posting artwork here that you didnt put much effort into and neither are planing to, you are actually devaluating it for you and everybody else and thats why i take offense.
The problem with that Richi is that often the biggest issues occur right at the first 5-10% of a piece, since this is where the composition, perspective and blocking in takes place. Personally I have no problem with people throwing up rough sketches and thumbnails as long as they look like some thought has been put into them.
Sketchbook - http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...=1#post2697831
Blog...(Updated more regularly!)
Actually it's good that people come here with sketches. What good is it if someone posts an already finished picture in the critique section? What are they after? I doubt many artists are going to completely revamp an already finished piece (unless that's exactly what they're trying to do). In fact, I'd say more people in the critique section should show a willingness to actually plan their drawing ahead and ask for help in the earliest stages of their work, rather than just going by what they know and not ask for critique until they are completely and utterly stuck (after which we can tell them the same thing over and over again, basically).
For all, here's the link: http://dragoness77.deviantart.com/journal/41336599/
I think there are some fundamental issues with your viewpoint that I would have like to see addressed:
1. "Modern" artists. I doubt that "artists" in the past have been less lazy, and there is a decline in devotion. I think what is eminent is that more and more people discover their interest in creating art through the internet, and deviantart is a great tool for everyone to dig in. And given the massive amount of users, yes- that must be a lot of "lazy modern "artists"" out there. I don't know why you regard them as "artists" anyway. As you said yourself, there is good art and bad art. I don't regard manga-wannabes and wolf-draw-madman as artists per se. I don't regard myself an artist either. I don't want to get in the discussion of what is an artist, but it strikes me that you use the term to describe a certain clientel on deviantart.
2. Whereas I absolutely agree with your statement on "there is no shortcut for experience", I had a hard time accepting a statement such as yours "so please, put more effort into it". I think your gallery is a prime example of deviantart's social network. 90% dragons or else, generating the most favs. I do know you have a much broader range than this, but only after meeting your artworks here on CA.
I think your DA account is the answer to your question of lazy artists:
Not that you were one of them, but the use of dA as something closer to Facebook rather than a sketchbook or a CC forum. You pick which artwork you upload, you write lots of journals and you have lots of followers- all this does not suggest that you are a hard-working artist. If I were to look at your gallery, and haven't stumbled upon CA, I would think that you are just one of those dragon-freaks who just happen to draw better than I do. That is actually what I thought. Because without the knowledge of fundamentals, one cannot appreciate works in the way that one does once you understand what lies behind. This is what the internet, and deviantart suggests. 2 days ago a tutorial got a DailyDeviation which explicitly states, and I quote:
"Where possible, draw from real images. Magazines (especially photos naturally lit, not studio lit) will be much easier to learn from than real life. Real life doesn't stay still long. Disregard this advice if your passion lies in painting fruit"
Not just is it suggested that drawing was some sort of 3-step process, it is actually and actively discouraged to draw from life, which for me as a beginner was one of the most enhancing and useful things to embark on and that every single artist book out there devotes at least a couple of sentences to.
Thus, I say that internet encourages more people to pursue a path of art, but it remains an encouragement based on the social network of "artists", and not professional education or advice. It is a general phenomenon that the massive amount of tutorials and websites dedicated to subjects suggests that everyone can do it, and learn it in a day. I have encountered this when starting with Photoshop Design in 2006. It is not restricted to art or fine arts or digital art, the idea of "do it yourself in 3 steps" has become a phenomenon which the market has been happy to use, just look at video2brain, GalileoComp and other commercial products suggesting that you can do it within the time the tutorial plays.
So coming back to your journal article, this is why I think it is less about lazy artists, but an environment encouraging those who otherwise would indeed be too lazy to pick up a pencil. That said, I am sure there are many good artists living today which would have not become artists had it not been for the internet. I do not intent to criticize your deviantart presence.
Sorry I couldn't be bothered to write a long text on deviantart, but as it feeds into a discussion here, I regarded it as useful.
The way I see this, your gripe is with two very different things, which I think shouldn't be mixed.
First off, rough sketches. I'll echo the other opinions stating that being whistled back on a rough sketch that's going awry without you noticing is a lot less painful than being told to start over when you're nearly done and way off the road. And I don't think the latter way is so much more educational.
I agree on the other gripe to large degree - people expecting to be given a customised manual of how exactly they'll make it from amateur to kick-ass pro artist by next Tuesday. That is common, and it is idiotic. But on the other hand, I've read several threads that you're referring to here and I'm sure the artist did put in the best he could (even if that doesn't look like much to a pro). And yes, they have all the wealth of this forum at hand and they ignored it... but not, I think, to be mean or spoiled, but because there's such an awful lot of precious information that they don't have a clue where on earth to start.
The WIP section already is for newbies. And personally, I think that as long as there are people willing to give them more customized feedback than "work on the basics" there shouldn't be a problem with that.
This really has more to do with human psychology in general rather than just aspiring artists doing this. But I'll shoot:
While it's easy to understand what it is to do a critique when you're actually able to spot the specific shortcomings of the artist and the artpiece(s), and you've actually made such (a) critique(s), a lot of the people who are starting out, don't really comprehend what lies behind it. This is because they don't have the empathetic abilities or the experience necessary to know what it's like on the "other side".
This in turn can lead to scenarios where the artist will misbehave so to speak. People want to improve, but they don't always want to accept that the road towards improving can be a lot harder than to learn that magic trick that will immedatly make them masters. This doesn't make them stupid or any less of a person than yourself or anything though (not implying that that's your view.) It just makes them less experienced and somewhat ignorant to elements that they should be aware of.
There is no substantial proof for artists becoming lazier than before either. (nor any way to prove it given the subjectivity of what is "lazy" and not.) What might be the case giving such an impression (in addition to becoming grumpier and more critical of "the youth today" as one grows older.) could be that given the flow of so much information today, many might expect information in regards to how to actually improve their skills to be as easily available and digestable as the comparative information that is spread out there.
Having a cap of 60% done (which would be arbitrarily decided since an artwork isn't static, but rather dynamic.) makes little sense. Sure, one should expect some effort put into the work if they expect to get some effort in terms of critiques for their work, but that is a very self-correcting process since the people giving critiques here have a good sense of what took effort and what didn't, and will respond depending on how much effort has been put into a work up for critique.
LordLouis: Be careful with your assumptions. Just because someone is active in a community does not make them lazy in their profession, not even if that community may seem a useless waste of time to you. Particularly the line where you said;
"I would think that you are just one of those dragon-freaks who just happen to draw better than I do."
They happen to draw better than you do? I'm sorry, but nobody just "happens" to draw better than anyone. They draw better than you because they have more experience in doing so. That fact doesn't change just because they draw a lot of dragons.
Yes, I am active on DeviantART. Have been for six years and probably will be for many years to come. Indeed, it's an art community that works somewhat like FaceBook. But how many artists are a member of FaceBook besides their profession? I bet lots of them. I'm not a member of FaceBook, because DeviantART offers practically the same just with more people who share my interest. This is only a bad thing if you are blind to the opportunities it actually offers. I got my first as well as my best paid commissions off of DeviantART and I can quite safely say that without that website, I would not have got as far as I am now. Don't judge something you've never been part of just because you heard stuff about it.
Although I do have to agree with you that there are a lot of misleading articles as well as actually misleading artists on there. Every community has it's rotten apples, some just more than others. I've no idea how anyone could counter that, but it may contribute to the amount of derailed beginning artists, I guess.
Last edited by Lhune; June 21st, 2011 at 04:44 PM.
For every lazy newbie who expects to become a professional within a week there's an arrogant "experienced" artist who thinks himself above critiquing newbies' work beyond giving them a vague "work on the basics" answer. It does not occur to these guys that some newbies might misinterpret what they're studying and keep on rendering it inaccurately until someone points out their error. As an example, I've done many leg studies, but I would always get the knees wrong until someone was kind enough to tell me exactly how they looked wrong. Were it not for that particular piece of feedback I would keep getting them wrong.
That is why newbies may demand customized feedback. And frankly, aren't critiques in general customized feedback?
Everything is better with dinosaurs.
why would you want to rely on wellmeant input, if you could get there yourself?
do your homework and people will treat you with respect... rely on someone elses effort and you already lost.... seriously how thickheaded can you be to not get this into your head????
I'll read all that later...but I couldn't agree more with sone_one's OP. IMHO the main problem is a complete lack of real interest or curiosity about what this stuff (art/illustration) is all about. People just seem to think, "Wow! That would be so cool if I was Craig Mullins! I'll start drawing in Photoshop!" If someone is genuinely interested they are immersed in a thing, they read about it, explore it, etc. and they develop an awareness of the thing. This seems to be missing from many of the newbies today.
I have no problem with people just getting started asking questions, seeking direction, feedback, etc. but when you point out to them what they need to be doing you often get a big rant or a bunch of excuses. It has become so bad that most experienced artists/pros don't even bother any more.
The reason for this seeming "decay" in awareness, again imho, is the ease in which the internet allows people to post their work, ask questions and receive feedback. In the olden times, there were probably just as many wannabes, but they couldn't bother very many people and no one was aware of them really. There was a filter in place essentially, if you weren't good enough or dedicated enough you didn't go anywhere. The internet has removed that filter is all, but unfortunately, people being people means they rarely want to hear anything straight up.
The WIPs/Critique area should be full of people trying to understand shadows, light and form - this area should be dominated by still lifes, perspective studies, etc. And there should be far fewer comments by newbies. But that is just my take on it, clearly that isn't what it is or what people are after. Which is unfortunate.
Thanks for opening up the discussion sone...
I'm outa here.
seriously there are as many starting points, noone can keep a tracking record. yet the readiness to investigate is lacking big time.
jeff is mentioning curiosity ... and thats probably what i ment to say.... if you aint interested enough to do your own investigations... what a fucking prick are you to expect anyone else to, and serve it to you one a golden plate?
do you want to get there? put in the effort.
dont you care? dont waste my time, i had to put into clicking on your thread, reading it, and hitting the back-button.
this section once had guys like dan dos santos (dsillustration), and ron lemen (fredflickstone) replying.
just ask yourself before posting here... is this rather going to attract the ones im learning from or is this going to drive them off.
everyone that posts here is responsible for what this evolves into.
Unfortunately Lhune, most of the time that's the only way to really put it. We could give critique on every aspect that needs to be improved, however that would often require an essay. Working on the basics is pretty self explanatory, and in the end the artist needs to be able to recognize their own shortcomings and errors without relying on other people. There are a tonne of resources that explain what these are, google is not hard to use.
Brandon Pilcher - You can't DEMAND anything. People critique your work because they genuinely want to try and help, even if it may seem harsh. We don't get paid, or receive compensation for anything we choose to say. Be grateful that they chose to crit you in the first place, and then apply that to your work. I have been following your threads and all you seem to do is argue rather than try and fix your art. Smarten up or stop posting.
Sketchbook - http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...=1#post2697831
Blog...(Updated more regularly!)
I'm going to answer EVERY new "artist's" Question with this one answer.
Question: "Where do I start?"
Answer: Take your area of interest, no matter what it is, and research the subject. You want to draw anime, pick your favorite illustrator and research their artistic background, see how they developed to get to where they are now, & follow their path.
Will you draw just like them? No, illustration as well as painting or any other artform, is an individual expression that, though many may ape another's style, will always have slight variation. Eventually if it's your goal, you will develop your own way of creating.
Main elements...Time, drive, desire, determination, will, need.
Now go off, and be "ART-TEESTS".
My SketchBook http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=139784
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=192127"Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."-John Huston, Director
Where do I judge you? I said multiple times that I know about your skills, and your effort, and your range. I did. What I was talking about it impressions. If a 16 year old teenie girl comes on deviantart and sees your account, do you think they will go along the lines of "wow, solid anatomy and understanding of form and value"? I haven't heard "stuff" about it, I am a member of deviantart. My artistic skill does not match yours, and I am unable to get requests for comissions- but I would love to (so, quite the contrary to what you said).
As for the last paragraph, yes absolutely. That is what I was trying to say, enhancing it with the example of your own dA account- which I obviously have misrepresented and I apologize. I do not intend to start some furious argument here, sorry.
the answer is just a few clicks away.... seriously... you can get it with minimal effort. i grew up when there aint been handies around with 24/7 internet access. no gutenberg project. no download mirrors.... youd have to go to the library and ask for a specific book... because whod like to rely onto a more or less illiterate librarian? and even then you had to cross your fingers the library got that book....
now everything comes for free... and people treat it like that... for free=little value....
are you fucking serious? you are drinving away those youd benefit from... keep that in mind when youre posting your next "these are my sketches what do you think" thread, or are easily ditching well-meant critique.
If you don't know how it's like without the internet, when everything IS free and available- why would you think there is a reason to bother any further? Isn't that simple logic? I see that everything is for free- clearly it wouldn't be logical to assume "oh, advice is free- therefore it must be a hard process". But on that subject matter philosophers have been smashing their heads, and I guess we won't uncover the grand scheme of things in a CA forum
But can you say sone_one, how it was like in 2005? I know this forum myself for not longer than a year, and I haven't noticed much of a change, other than it has just gotten more crowded.
I think that, whereas some "newbs" are driving away the more experienced people who could really be of use around here, you yourself are driving away the people that could benefit from this site with your behavior. What you're saying is getting close to suggesting that there is no need for secondary school, college or university, because so long as someone has the drive to learn, they will. That's simply not how it works, the world of art is complex and even the great masters of the past needed guidance of some sort. There's nothing wrong with that. Yes, a lot of beginners today should put much more effort into learning, but I think one of the problems is, as Jeff said, it's so easy to just start drawing, and get half decent without even really having a goal. People have more time nowadays, more money to spend on useless things, more tools and machines to do things for them. People are getting used to everything being easy.
I understand your frustration really, but everything you're saying right now, and particularly the manner in which you're saying it, isn't helping anyone or anything. It definitely isn't making anything better, anyway. The problem is that people need to be more inspired to do something, they need to decide where they want to go in art, because the main cause for the problem you're seeing is a lack of goal, the fact that they don't really need to be serious. And I'm afraid that's something that isn't really going to change any time soon.
The truth is that people shouldn't be asking about the basics here. I think that is what sone one is really getting at in principle.
I find myself looking down the string of thumbnails and will only bother to look at something that is ambitious in its attempt and where the help they need cannot be found in the literature of the basics.
I remember Kev Ferrara doing a fantastic rolling crit for a guy going by the name of DOG FOOD who was really, really trying to get his composition right. He took Kev's advice, went away, worked on his comp, posted it up again and Kev would tear into it again. Off, DOG FOOD would go, try to put the advice into practice and post up his comp yet again. Kev, encouraged him and critiqued him and back went DOG FOOD to try some more on his comp. The final image was a wonderful improvement on what was first begun and the whole thread a moving testiment to the relationship of a pupil and master both enrinched from the experience.
That's what this forum should be about.
Last edited by Chris Bennett; June 21st, 2011 at 06:16 PM.
From Gegarin's point of view