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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineris View Post
    Actually most beginners can't tell. I couldn't. When I was 20 I thought that the fact that I could copy manga and comics reasonably accurately made me a couple steps down from being a pro. When you're a beginner you really seriously don't get how bad you are.
    Or as one of my teachers used to say 'I was a much better artist when I didn't know anything about art.'

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    Holy Monkey-Cow in a Hand-Basket. That was one bipolar ride. Sometimes, the simpler the crit, the harder it is for the artist to understand and sometimes its a pain in the ass for a busy person to sit and critique every single thing and map out what the artist has to do in order to achieve growth.

    The young or growing artist that wants the help needs to be lead along. If your answer is to work on the basics, it tends to mean that there is a shit ton wrong right? Instead, like a martial arts instructor(or anything complicated being taught for that matter), its better to pick a target and focus on that one thing, both for the artist and the critiquer(I made up a word. I rock).

    Simply put, take the carrot on a stick approach. If the new guy has shaky lines, no line weight, doesn't understand the concept of weight, balance, proportions and more, then "work on the basics" is usually the go to choice. BUT, there is a better solution for the artist and the critiquer. Instead focus on only one problem and be concise. If the guy you are teaching to fight falls over when he punches, you teach him how to move his feet. Nothing to do with the hands but he HAS to fix that first. If the artist has 1 million problems, focus in on one. It's easier for you to communicate and its easier for them to work on. One carrot on a stick leads them. Twelve carrots confuse and lead to dumb questions and whininess. lol

    The only time I take exceptions to this rule is if I think a long crit will benefit more than one person, from the artist to the other viewers in the thread.

    Just my thoughts on a generally turbulent seesaw of opinions.

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    Again, for the new page:

    ART TEACHER ASSESSMENT RUBRICS AND CRITERIA ARE ALREADY FREELY AVAILABLE ONLINE.
    THESE CRITERIA ARE APPLICABLE FROM PRIMARY (ELEMENTARY SCHOOL) UP AS THEYRE METRICS OF PROGRESS NOT ABSOLUTE ACHIEVEMENT...

    http://curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-st...ign/index.aspx

    "love it. You really need to keep a count of how many times you post that and add the number to your new responses that have it."

    hilarious

    Last edited by Velocity Kendall; June 22nd, 2011 at 06:25 PM.
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  6. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall View Post
    Again, for the new page:

    ART TEACHER ASSESSMENT RUBRICS AND CRITERIA ARE ALREADY FREELY AVAILABLE ONLINE.
    THESE CRITERIA ARE APPLICABLE FROM PRIMARY (ELEMENTARY SCHOOL) UP AS THEYRE METRICS OF PROGRESS NOT ABSOLUTE ACHIEVEMENT...

    http://curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-st...ign/index.aspx
    love it. You really need to keep a count of how many times you post that and add the number to your new responses that have it. Still, for those that don't want to post a full on critique, the rubric doesn't help much. Your link is incomplete too. The others weren't but the new one is.

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  7. #155
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    OK Oz!...would it be a reasonable, fair critique to tell someone they need to work on light on form? That is usually the biggest problem, though often it is structure as well. Then you have to hear how boring that is and how that isn't what they want to do, etc. etc.

    In your martial arts analogy...the problem isn't the student who falls over when he punches - it is the student who falls over when he punches and bitches at the master when he is told to shift his feet. Instead he refuses to shift his feet and insists on being included in "open combat". THIS is the core of the problem.

    Bottom line is people come here seeking critique on work far too advanced for them to handle. You gently explain that while still trying to be encouraging and you catch 7 kinds of hell for it. Learning "art" is a step-by-step process, a journey...you cannot start at the end and expect to know where you are.

    People are beginning with the most advanced subjects - often multiple figures in an environment - sometimes even worse, ie: night scenes, multiple light sources and other crazy shit. Yet they can't render light on basic forms, don't know anatomy, perspective or any of the other basics. This doesn't make them weak, or horrible people or not worth helping, it simply means they lack experience, which is not the problem.

    You can point out the forty things wrong, which they don't have the experience and understanding to see, let alone implement, or you can advise them the same thing that every successful, representational artist or illustrator advises: study the fundamentals and work from life.

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    You can definitely point out light on form. That's one subject. One that they must take upon themselves to study and work on if they want to get better. If they take the poor attitude approach then screw them. In my martial arts classes(I am not the instructor) when somebody takes that approach I simply hurt them until they quit or fix the issue that is allowing me to hurt them. Here, you don't have that choice. Like I said earlier, if they want to learn, then you telling them to watch their lighting will have a positive effect over time as they keep it in the back of their mind. If not, then don't waste crits on them anymore. They will continue to suck and won't ever make anything of their artwork and that's their choice.

    And thank you for backing me up in your last two paragraphs.

    And definitely, you are right. As an artist(no matter what stage or genre) you should always be practicing the basics. Its the technical work that gets most people. I see a lot of good painters on here that can't draw a basic figure. Its not for lack of trying. Their life drawing/painting is good. Their technical understanding is poor. And therefore their unreferenced work suffers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Or as one of my teachers used to say 'I was a much better artist when I didn't know anything about art.'
    Yeah, the further I go the worse I get!


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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Or as one of my teachers used to say 'I was a much better artist when I didn't know anything about art.'
    One of mine said "The more you know, the more you know you don't know" (which I believe was originally said by Aristotle). Suppose it comes down to the same thing .

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    I'm still all for the whole, "Hey, lets open a debate to change things for the better!" but have we really gotten anywhere with this? I feel like the last couple of pages are just repeating what has been said before, partly because people aren't bothering to read the whole thread but also because perhaps there is little more to say?

    To be honest I don't think there is a solution for this. No matter how tough and scary you make yourselves, there will always be arrogent newbies who think that they can paint better than Picasso who will slip through the screen. Also, putting on this "mask" might even scare off artists who actually have potential to become great. Leaving the section as is will also do the same thing...So basically it's Catch 22.

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    sb most art copied to page 1
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    Quote Originally Posted by sone_one View Post
    no its not? it aint for newbies, its for serious art students striving to get better at what they do... newbies are just ruining it with their careless attitude.
    I diagree. Art is what you make it. There are people on this site and others who are "serious" about art; they are seeking a career, are making portfolios, are hoping that one day they will earn their daily bread by doing what they love. But that isn't all the artistic community. We're not all at the same level, and we are not all trying hard to be the best ever. Careless? How about carefree?

    What about all the people here who have solid, full time jobs in a completely different industry, and draw just for the fun of it? They're not wanting a career change, they just want to get better at a hobby. Just because you sign up on a chess forum, wanting to learn to get better, doesn't mean that you want to become the world champion, and have it as a full time career.

    I think you need to relax about this. If you don't want to see posts from people asking for help, then don't look through this section.


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    im sorry for returning to this as late, but ive been a little overwhelmed by all the different responses.

    i dont think anything needs a change if it comes to forum structure... the only thing i was aiming for, is a raised awareness that no matter, how well-ment, thourough, nicely worded, etc any critique is.... if you aint up to take whatever might be hurled at you, this (imo) is just not the right forum section to post in.

    im not saying you need to take and implement everything... far from it. but you need to be open to at least consider it. and then you hopefully got enough knowledge under your belt to make an educated decission, which ones to consider and which ones to ditch... or would you rely on someone elses opinion for that aswell?

    @swampthing... yes i know the situation in vienna/austria quite well... thats why i feel so strongly about this.

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  17. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droid View Post
    What about all the people here who have solid, full time jobs in a completely different industry, and draw just for the fun of it? They're not wanting a career change, they just want to get better at a hobby. Just because you sign up on a chess forum, wanting to learn to get better, doesn't mean that you want to become the world champion, and have it as a full time career.

    I think you need to relax about this. If you don't want to see posts from people asking for help, then don't look through this section.
    You're missing the point. No one is ranting or venting about people who come here seeking help or respond politely to critique. I've said it at least six different ways in here. The problem is when people bitch about you not holding their hand and helping them every step of the way. They want a "paint by numbers" approach and for you to lay it out for them. That is the problem, not people asking for help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Droid View Post
    I think you need to relax about this. If you don't want to see posts from people asking for help, then don't look through this section.
    not trying to say that my inputs are invalueable, but are you sure, its what you want this to be, if you ask people to just leave, because they express the feeling this could be handled better? (remember jeff, dpaint, venger, etc obviously are having similar notions about that.)

    Last edited by sone_one; June 22nd, 2011 at 08:06 PM.
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  21. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droid View Post
    I diagree. Art is what you make it. There are people on this site and others who are "serious" about art; they are seeking a career, are making portfolios, are hoping that one day they will earn their daily bread by doing what they love. But that isn't all the artistic community. We're not all at the same level, and we are not all trying hard to be the best ever. Careless? How about carefree?

    What about all the people here who have solid, full time jobs in a completely different industry, and draw just for the fun of it? They're not wanting a career change, they just want to get better at a hobby. Just because you sign up on a chess forum, wanting to learn to get better, doesn't mean that you want to become the world champion, and have it as a full time career.

    I think you need to relax about this. If you don't want to see posts from people asking for help, then don't look through this section.
    I have to disagree and and I agree with sone-one. The responsibility is with the people asking for free help not the people giving it. I rarely make ad hominum attacks but that is what I get more often than not from offering my advice or opinion. My take is if you don't want an honest opinion don't post here because I ain't going away ever, till they drag me out feet first.

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    Getting a critique and getting mentored - two completely separate things.

    Critique: I'll do if I have time and I think I can help - though you must understand the 'if I have time' bit - which mean's no 26 page essay - some things you have to go and learn, you've been given the pointers.

    Mentoring: Sorry, only if you paid me - it's a huge input of time and effort.

    There's a difference there that beginners fail to understand ('noobs' are entirely different!) - just because you've given them a critique doesn't mean you are now their mentor.

    That's half the problem - they are starved of knowledge and you have it (or some of it) and they want it all now with no work...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    That's half the problem - they are starved of knowledge and you have it (or some of it) and they want it all now with no work...
    since i put a thanks on your post before you added that sentence, and the forum software doesnt support a second thanks, i had to make a post out of it.

    thats exactly what i wanted to get at, but in one sentence.

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    Well I want to say that sometimes I have posted threads that have helped me immensely in creating my best artworks. My best paintings have all been created with a multi page critique thread where better artists then me tell me what to do and I do it. And I force them to tell me more.

    And yea it may seem like I am leeching off your knowledge, but you guys are better artists then me and you see things from a much better perspective. So I don't know when I am crossing your frustration or when I am making the most out of critique. It is hard to say. However I know that if I didnt post my harder paintings, they would have been garbage without all of your help.

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    i dont see where this "My best paintings have all been created with a multi page critique thread where better artists then me tell me what to do and I do it." attitude would frustrate anyone.

    [edit] again... this aint been ment as a rant about people posting artwork, but about lack of willingness to put in actual effort in some cases... *sigh*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade_Templar View Post
    I find it difficult to believe that someone is unable to copy and paste something that they think looks awesome, onto their screen whilst simultaneously having their own work up, and point out the differences.
    Oh, they can do that. But they think that the differences are minor, that nobody will REALLY notice, and if they set out to correct them they will honestly think that they have done better in the next picture even though little has changed. That's like... half the process of learning art. Learning how to see what's there. Learning to see your mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slade_Templar View Post
    However, if they cannot, that is a skill that they should be working on, because otherwise they aren't going to get better.
    Of course they do. Feel free to tell them. They have to learn that bit of knowledge somewhere too.

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    Theres a difference Pavel - you try to do something with the critique - rather than 'feed me all your knowledge, which I'm going to forget tomorrow'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Damn art leeches
    FUNNY!



    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    Quote Originally Posted by sone_one View Post
    these forums are filled with knowledge, tutorials, instructions, etc... yet people keep coming here without even doing some browsing, asking for something thats for the first time (due to the internet) accessible to them anyway. yet this obviously doesnt satisfy the specific needs. it needs to be sugarcoated, conditioned to serve individual tender feelings...

    could you please, for once consider that your problems aint unique and that the answer could be found, putting in some effort yourself, instead of expecting someone else to tailor it, to suit your specific problem, or mental state?

    currently i see a shitload of aspiring artists coming on here, obviously thinking that the community owes them something, or that it is the greatest joy to spend an afternoon, properly voicing a critique, while only 12 minutes of effort went into the creation of the picture at hand?

    [edit] only to be called out for pointing out the obvious, just because its not "add a 5 pixel wide touch of r54b47g07 with 80% opacity on the right calf 7 pixels above the ankle".... bleh
    Love that quote by Speed, I have that book and am always reminded of that particular passage.

    It is madness when you think how much info is available out there (perhaps too much) look at what was achieved by the masters with a handful of materials and only each other’s work to look at (and indeed critique), not to mention going hungry half the time - I mean, up until about 100 years ago, you had to see a body being carved up to get a glimpse in a crowded room of some anatomy (or go dig one up yourself) yet look at what was acheived despite the challenges.

    Nowadays you have literally EVERYTHING at your disposal without the need to even leave your chair.

    People need to realize there is no quick, clever method to becoming a good artist, it’s just guts and determination and a lot of heart - something that seems lacking in comfortable societies, where everything is handed on a plate.

    All simple minded people can do is whine about how talented/wealthy/successful someone else is.... I think I'll leave it there before I start going on about the twats trying to burn London at the moment!! Poverty my arse!



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    Quote Originally Posted by Marine_Blue View Post
    Love that quote by Speed, I have that book and am always reminded of that particular passage.

    It is madness when you think how much info is available out there (perhaps too much) look at what was achieved by the masters with a handful of materials and only each other’s work to look at (and indeed critique), not to mention going hungry half the time - I mean, up until about 100 years ago, you had to see a body being carved up to get a glimpse in a crowded room of some anatomy (or go dig one up yourself) yet look at what was acheived despite the challenges.

    Nowadays you have literally EVERYTHING at your disposal without the need to even leave your chair.

    People need to realize there is no quick, clever method to becoming a good artist, it’s just guts and determination and a lot of heart - something that seems lacking in comfortable societies, where everything is handed on a plate.

    All simple minded people can do is whine about how talented/wealthy/successful someone else is.... I think I'll leave it there before I start going on about the twats trying to burn London at the moment!! Poverty my arse!
    Sorry but this never-ending argument about the masters being superior in their dedication and effort compared to today's artists really gets on my nerves. The opportunities wide open to everyone nowadays allows all those people to embark on this artistic journey who, in the end, abort, fail or lose interest.
    We are just exposed to the majority of hobbyists, teenagers and beginners that we forget about the thousands of brilliant, dedicated and hardworking artists who don't fuck around.

    And the argument with comfortable societies- well, give me a personal DaVinci who would teach me all that he knows, and I wouldn't need to look up on the internet!

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    Ok guys, go draw something.

    It was interesting read for the first page or so. Then it became a case of this:



    Let's spend all this energy on becoming better at what we do (it being painting or anything else).

    Cheers!

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