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  1. #91
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    No one is forcing you to browse this forum or help anyone. Am I missing something? If you're just too damn hawt for it, then go do your art! No one is forcing you!

    I actually like to help the lowest of noobs. I can do the most good with even less time and effort! My words are like pearls to them. And yet, you despise them for it lol. I am definitely missing something.

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artfix View Post
    No one is forcing you to browse this forum or help anyone. Am I missing something? If you're just too damn hawt for it, then go do your art! No one is forcing you!

    I actually like to help the lowest of noobs. I can do the most good with even less time and effort! My words are like pearls to them. And yet, you despise them for it lol. I am definitely missing something.
    I like helping people. Its just what do you do when they get so angry at your crit that it's almost pointless to continue? That's why I love the "worst of CA" thread. Stuff is priceless!

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    Good questions Erin - I've wracked my brains trying to figure out a workable idea. Essentially the problems come down to respect, expectations, and the anonymity of the internet. Which means there aren't really any viable solutions unfortunately.

    You'll find that many who receive simple, "get back to basics" critique take it well and to heart. The problem is those that don't take it well for whatever reason, and then those that jump in to defend them. Which makes those of us trying to help reluctant to do so. For the most part I hear people saying, "Well, don't bother critiquing then", or something along those lines. Which is probably the best thing to do.
    Exactly. I know I've seen people told that same thing and then take a trip to their sketchbook where they really get on the fundamentals and start to improve.

    I don't think it's a bad thing at all to say "get back to fundies". If a reputable artist in here comes and checks me with that line, I know that I need to take a good hard look at myself, and probably need to do just that;get back to fundies.

    Edit: Even if a newer artist tells me that I'll definitely take their critique into consideration.

    Personally, my second favorite critique(first being established professional artists) I like to get, is from a completely non artist observer of the general public that knows nothing more than what they like to see. They will always give an honest opinion if you really try and get it(not those friends on facebook who comment "Oh this is sooo awesomeee" "really?...uuhh ya!"). If they don't like it, they will tell you. It also gives some insight into the thoughts of people who will be really giving you business. Who is our industries profits driven by? Artists? No. The normal non artist who purchases the game. The guy that watches that movie or tv show with the art in it. If the general public doesn't like your work then there's probably a problem that you might want to address.

    Last edited by Stuart DeViva; June 22nd, 2011 at 02:24 AM.
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  6. #94
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    I'm quite happy this thread got started. I think its a topic that has to be discussed. I'm still quite new on posting so its ok to ignore me.

    Part of me feels that CA should be at least scary to posts in. Or preferably for really die hard serious artists. I know that's unlikely to happen, but one can wish. I hope that doesn't sound discriminating.

    Yes, I agree that the information is out there, thankfully. Self learning is doable, I've convinced myself years ago that most people really can't do it, even me. But I've come to this realization after going to school:

    IMHO its about mileage. Meaning spending hours learning and applying. Insane hours. Just glancing at that anatomy book or tutorial video and just trying it for 2 hours will just not do. Hard Work.

    I was forced to draw about 16 hours a day because of the workload they give. I have been drawing since I was 16 and I have never spent that much time on boring subjects like cubes and perspectives. Even afterwards I knew I was so far from Pro level I saw the point of spending insane time on learning.

    The months learning the basics is probably more important than the fancy illustrations we got do to afterwards.

    my first newbie post was like 2006 and I only went to school around 2010. I'm still not that good, but imagine 4 fucking years just blindly drawing and painting around amounting to nothing just hoping someday it will just click.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    This is BS, art is lonely, if you want to be a chatty cathy and talk about art all the time then go ahead but the best artists make art they don't sit around talking abot how they will make art. Interaction and talking is for pussies.You don't need some one to hold your hand like your mommy did crossing the street. If you're too stupid to read a book and follow what it says you are too stupid to be a professional artist. Most people would benefit from just drawing and painting forget about getting opinions every ten seconds. I think for most people this forum and others is a hinderance because of all the input. It feels like you are accomplishing something when really its just masterbation. You've got people who can't draw or paint giving advice to other people who can't draw or paint.
    If you think that being lonely and not getting to interact with artist with the goal to become a better artist through this, then that's your cake to eat. However, I don't understad at all what you are doing at this forum... A forum is by definition a place to interact with people, and an art-centered one like this necessarily is centerd around interaction coupled with artistery and mastery of it.

    Masturation is doing something on your own. Doing something with others doesn't really work as an analouge to masturbation.

    As far as people not being able to daw or paint, that isn't a prequisite for being able to tell other people what they're doing wrong. Just like you don't have to be a director to be able to tell whats good in a film and what isn't.

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  8. #96
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    so, on a scale of 1 to 10, how does my last post (today) asking for help with the figures and lighting measure-up as an offending posts?

    I spent over an hour on the figures alone, plus another hour on perspective on the incomplete other areas.

    ... just wondering

    ...chronic guilt; you know, its a catholic thing.

    The description of the forum says something like
    "post your shit up at any stage,
    and see if folks want to give you their 2 cents."

    On posts, I'm just looking for "yes, it looks right" or "no, go fix it, somehow", although, I always have an additional specific question aiming at a slightly narrowed response, such as "use a human model for every figure"
    or "go study lighting on spheres".

    hmm....that last bit of advice seems to be good feedback to my post...

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  9. #97
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    The 60% thing was just a suggestion man. Personally, I don't mind giving comments whether its 5% or 100%. I like to help even if they don't appreciate it. In the end, everybody wants to learn and its up to you if you would like to help or not. Thinking that a particular thread is a waste of time doesnt help anybody and its better to help I think. But like I said, in the end its all upto you whether you would help or not. (Yesterday, I opened a new thread about BnW thumbs cos I didnt knew much about it, but 0 replies maybe its a waste of time for some. I dont mind, the world doesnt end here...so, keep looking). (And looking for a particular topic in the site is good but its got no guarantee if it will work or not, so simply asking about it atleast has chances of working out.)

    Cheer Up! World's a big place...
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    After reading through this thread, it's clear that there is more surpressed emotions here than in a Henrik Ibsen book...

    Obviously if people don't want this forum to explode (such as in threads like these), there needs to be a change. So allow me to suggest a simple change:

    Create a new forum for critique and feedback for newbies. This would be a less specific forum where new members would come and post work, and get feedback on their work, as well as encourage the critique to be as specific as needed. e.g. if someone makes a portrait with a face that resembles something related to the ape-subgroup but with hair that looks like someone tried to paste half-boiled spagghetti to their heads they'd be told that they'd need to work the hair in regards to that piece. Even if they're lacking in the basics at other points, simply because the hair would be so horrible compared to the rest of the flaws.

    Anyway, on to the other aspect: Keep this forum with a requirement for posting (approval, X amount of posts, X amount of threads, whatever works.), and have this a place for more seasoned artists to post. If someone posts horrible works here, they'd be immediatly pointed towards the new board for feedback suited to their needs. And in turn this could make this board more of a "something is off about this composition" rather than a "People usually don't have feet that are 3 times their upper body length without knees" type board.

    Or we could just stay this way, and pretend that the surpressed emotions (which clearly aren't here) will go away by themself.

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  12. #99
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    Interesting topic here... I will try to share my thoughts as one of people who aren't here for many years. I hope my english is not to bad.

    Well, I've started my sketchbook here in Feb 2011, because I really wanted and still want to improve. I had an other account before and a sketchbook some years ago, but at that time, I just wasn't ready to deal with CA.org. So I restarted.
    Now I was here, looking around for critique. And I see many people doing the same. Everyday, new sketchbooks get started and critiquethreads are opened. But many of the people doing this don't take the things serious. They went away after some days - maybe because the don't get any help or the couldn't stand the critique.

    For me it seems I had to be very patient and to put much effort into becoming a part of the community to get any helpful comments. I had the feeling, that it is difficult to reach out for the help of the skilled artists. I totally understand why. There are to many people around here. To many who give a shit on good critique. I understand why people who write helpful comments are frustrated.
    But for me, that was a kind of frustrating situation too. I'm serious about my improvement. I want to give people the feeling that I care about their words and work on my problems. But in the beginning I felt like the community just don't want me. Like I'm just another stupid newbie who will leave in a few days. Seems like people have to fight here to get their place. Not the worst thing to filter out the guys who are in the wrong place here. But maybe not the best thing either to have a real good feeling in the community.

    I don't know, that we can do about that. I like CA as a place where anyone can learn. For myself, I know that I need the feedback from other people to go on. BEcause sometimes I make many studies, but I'm always repeating the same mistakes and I don't get why. Sometimes just one sentence from a nice person who see the problem help me to solve the it. That's a much better feeling than being frustrated about the same thing for months.
    But I still try to look around and learn many things for myself. But sometimes I'm just not aware of what it takes to make the next step. So I'm happy that a place like CA exist and I'd like to be a respected part of the community instead of a newbie crying for critique and when bitching around ( at least in the eyes of the other ones)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaEvil1 View Post
    So allow me to suggest a simple change:

    Create a new forum for critique and feedback for newbies. This would be a less specific forum where new members would come and post work, and get feedback on their work, as well as encourage the critique to be as specific as needed. e.g. if someone makes a portrait with a face that resembles something related to the ape-subgroup but with hair that looks like someone tried to paste half-boiled spagghetti to their heads they'd be told that they'd need to work the hair in regards to that piece. Even if they're lacking in the basics at other points, simply because the hair would be so horrible compared to the rest of the flaws.
    Not a bad suggestion, I like it.

    Cheer Up! World's a big place...
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  14. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaEvil1 View Post
    After reading through this thread, it's clear that there is more surpressed emotions here than in a Henrik Ibsen book...

    Obviously if people don't want this forum to explode (such as in threads like these), there needs to be a change. So allow me to suggest a simple change:

    Create a new forum for critique and feedback for newbies. This would be a less specific forum where new members would come and post work, and get feedback on their work, as well as encourage the critique to be as specific as needed. e.g. if someone makes a portrait with a face that resembles something related to the ape-subgroup but with hair that looks like someone tried to paste half-boiled spagghetti to their heads they'd be told that they'd need to work the hair in regards to that piece. Even if they're lacking in the basics at other points, simply because the hair would be so horrible compared to the rest of the flaws.

    Anyway, on to the other aspect: Keep this forum with a requirement for posting (approval, X amount of posts, X amount of threads, whatever works.), and have this a place for more seasoned artists to post. If someone posts horrible works here, they'd be immediatly pointed towards the new board for feedback suited to their needs. And in turn this could make this board more of a "something is off about this composition" rather than a "People usually don't have feet that are 3 times their upper body length without knees" type board.

    Or we could just stay this way, and pretend that the surpressed emotions (which clearly aren't here) will go away by themself.
    This is actually a pretty good suggestion, although it has some flaws. First of all, some people are not very good at judging the quality of their work. I'm running a quality-controlled group on deviantART, where only artwork of a decent level may be submitted because our watchers there are not interested in seeing a scribble on lined paper someone cracked out when the maths teacher wasn't looking. I'm one of the contributors, so I'm basically a "judge" of the artwork that comes through and I filter it. The amount of people that are convinced that their work is almost as good as James Gurney when they've barely surpassed stick-figure level is astonishing. They will cry like there's no tomorrow when their work does not get approved and I fear that you'll get similar (very tiresome) drama if you split the crit section in two.

    The second, with the minimal post amounts, is a bit unfair. Sometimes an already experienced artist signs up on this forum, and they would be forced to first use the "newbie" critique section until they have enough posts to be part of the more serious critique section. This will probably make them leave before they get there (unless you keep the minimum amount of posts low, like 100).

    I do actually think it's a good idea to try and filter the really beginning artists from the more experienced ones, as it will result in a critique section I will actually really enjoy being in (and not scroll through the threads to find something interesting). It's going to be difficult to do that, though.

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  15. #102
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    HI guys

    After spending several hours reading through all this and then reading some of it again I have to say that it has made me laugh! Cry! it has made me Happy and then Sad.

    Lhune - I dont understand why anyone would be frightened or afraid to come here, its like my own little garden of eden on the internet where I can browse some great art and some crap art and cherry pick at the stuff that lights my fire, how can that possibly be a bad thing even a scary one. Thanks to the crits I have from here I am improving, and occasionally backsliding back down again, but I owe some of the people in this forum more than I can ever repay!!

    People like JeffX99, Dpaint, Artfix, Lhune, Arenhaus and JavierP all of these people have taken the time and the trouble to point me in the right direction. Jeff your comment that "It rarely happens that you tell someone to go back to basics ....... and they follow that advice", this is something you have said to me many times, and I have gone back and started to fix whatever the problem is from the ground up like in the Gollum thread that I started. In that thread the character was binned off more times than I could count and indeed is still not finished because I am working on skin textures and lighting etc. and wont be finished for a while because I'm not producing what I want to finish the work.

    I think its great that we get newbies on here, I mean for gods sake I am a newbie and the stuff I churn out is mostly crap, but every now and then something happens and I draw or paint something that turns out magical and makes me laugh with the joy of not being crap for five minutes.

    Maybe the solution to the problem of what to do with all us crap ones and newbies is to put a new sticky up where the pros can put little pearls of advice like those from Artfix (see I have read it) and when there is a problem with a newbies image you can just say go look in the "new artists FAQ sticky". This will dispose of or dilute most of the frustration that the pros feel.

    What do you think?

    Last edited by Lightship69; June 22nd, 2011 at 06:59 AM.
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  16. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lhune View Post
    This is actually a pretty good suggestion, although it has some flaws. First of all, some people are not very good at judging the quality of their work. I'm running a quality-controlled group on deviantART, where only artwork of a decent level may be submitted because our watchers there are not interested in seeing a scribble on lined paper someone cracked out when the maths teacher wasn't looking. I'm one of the contributors, so I'm basically a "judge" of the artwork that comes through and I filter it. The amount of people that are convinced that their work is almost as good as James Gurney when they've barely surpassed stick-figure level is astonishing. They will cry like there's no tomorrow when their work does not get approved and I fear that you'll get similar (very tiresome) drama if you split the crit section in two.
    Well, there's already a semi-split. If you post work that is deemed not good enough to "the finally finished" section, it'll get moved here to get proper critique, and I don't sense a lot of drama in that regard. People seem for the most part to be able to judge their work compared to what is expected in the secions.

    That's also why I suggest to have some sort of requirement for posting in this forum. This, so people who are ill-informed can't make such a choice as arbitrarely easy as that, and will post according to what they can.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lhune View Post
    The second, with the minimal post amounts, is a bit unfair. Sometimes an already experienced artist signs up on this forum, and they would be forced to first use the "newbie" critique section until they have enough posts to be part of the more serious critique section. This will probably make them leave before they get there (unless you keep the minimum amount of posts low, like 100).
    A potential solution to that, could be that before you reach X amount of posts, you're allowed to submit a thread to this forum, but it must be approved by a moderator or someone with access to this forum or something like that. But after you got enough posts under your belt, you could post freely on this board since you'd be expected to understand what fits where at that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lhune View Post
    I do actually think it's a good idea to try and filter the really beginning artists from the more experienced ones, as it will result in a critique section I will actually really enjoy being in (and not scroll through the threads to find something interesting). It's going to be difficult to do that, though.
    I think it'd be totally doable. One may need to ave some experience with how to adjust the setup to work reasonably well, but I think judging from CC compared to Finally finished, it's demonstrated that it may work.

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  17. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaEvil1 View Post
    Well, there's already a semi-split. If you post work that is deemed not good enough to "the finally finished" section, it'll get moved here to get proper critique, and I don't sense a lot of drama in that regard. People seem for the most part to be able to judge their work compared to what is expected in the secions.

    That's also why I suggest to have some sort of requirement for posting in this forum. This, so people who are ill-informed can't make such a choice as arbitrarely easy as that, and will post according to what they can.



    A potential solution to that, could be that before you reach X amount of posts, you're allowed to submit a thread to this forum, but it must be approved by a moderator or someone with access to this forum or something like that. But after you got enough posts under your belt, you could post freely on this board since you'd be expected to understand what fits where at that point.



    I think it'd be totally doable. One may need to ave some experience with how to adjust the setup to work reasonably well, but I think judging from CC compared to Finally finished, it's demonstrated that it may work.
    I don't see pictures being moved from Finally Finished to here all that often, though. Probably because the line between them is rather clear. I think if you're going to split the critique section into a "newb" and a "more experienced" section, you will have much more work to do. Having a moderator judge every newb thread is a good idea, but I don't know how many moderators CA has available for that. It's a lot of extra work you're creating.

    We'll see I guess. I do really like the idea, but I'm uncertain as to how well it would work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBobo View Post
    Its just what do you do when they get so angry at your crit that it's almost pointless to continue?
    Then don't continue.

    Wow, that was easy. I'm on a roll here, I hear there's a spot of trouble in the Middle East I might be able to work out before lunch?

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  20. #106
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    Hi guys

    as for my earlier idea of a sticky with art tips for newbies and frequently asked questions this is exactly the stuff I had in mind. follow the link

    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223131

    what do you think?

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    Lightship: I honestly think we all approve of that thread. Now it just needs to be a sticky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightship69 View Post
    as for my earlier idea of a sticky with art tips for newbies and frequently asked questions
    Yeah, assuming anyone actually reads the stickies...
    I think we need a script that automatically downloads the Loomis books to your computer and spams you with the sticky links until you've read them all.
    Every time someone posts a new critique thread. Just in case.

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  24. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinyBird View Post
    Yeah, assuming anyone actually reads the stickies...
    I think we need a script that automatically downloads the Loomis books to your computer and spams you with the sticky links until you've read them all.
    Every time someone posts a new critique thread. Just in case.
    I second this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaEvil1 View Post
    If you think that being lonely and not getting to interact with artist with the goal to become a better artist through this, then that's your cake to eat. However, I don't understad at all what you are doing at this forum... A forum is by definition a place to interact with people, and an art-centered one like this necessarily is centerd around interaction coupled with artistery and mastery of it.

    Masturation is doing something on your own. Doing something with others doesn't really work as an analouge to masturbation.

    As far as people not being able to daw or paint, that isn't a prequisite for being able to tell other people what they're doing wrong. Just like you don't have to be a director to be able to tell whats good in a film and what isn't.
    I'm at this forum because I help people get better with their art. I am not on here to pimp my stuff or make friends. I actually get paid quite a bit of money to teach and demo for people in real life as do a number of people like Jeff and Elwell but we still come on here and give it away. So yes, forums are to interact with people but I limit my interaction to critique and advice and occasionally even compliments. I post enough so people can see what I do and tell me how lousy I am when they get critiques they don't like.

    Learning art is about drawing and painting, if you spend more time surfing this site than drawing you aren't going to get very, good very fast.
    Art is about training your hand and eye abilities first, this has ben proven over and over again. Talking about making art has some uses but not as much as just drawing and trying to improve.

    Masterbation is what people do when they can't do what they want to do.
    It is the correct analogy.

    The idea that you can critique without any ability is an eroneous one. You really can't and it creates a DA type of environment here. While it is true you may see something wrong, you will lack the knowledge to tell the person how to fix it. Or even worse convince them its not that bad. Not being able to draw and paint is a lack of skill and judgement; that same lack of abilities prevents you from giving good advice. And while its true a broken watch is right twice a day you are not a watch and making art isn't a purely mechanical process.

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  26. #111
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    "Masturbation is what people do when they can't do what they want to do."

    Not really. Sometimes they just do it because it feels good. It isn't such a black and white thing. Maybe you feel that way about it but that doesn't make it the absolute truth. I understand the metaphor, it's just not a very good one.

    "The idea that you can critique without any ability is an eroneous one. You really can't and it creates a DA type of environment here."

    I do agree with this. That's why I said before that when you receive critique and you're unsure about it it helps to check out the work of the critic. If they're far below your own level, even if it may sound somewhat elitist, then you can take their crits with a grain of salt.

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    The problem with splitting up the critique section is - How do you define a newbie from a professional? It has been mentioned so many times in this thread, but that transition is about as definite as the division of electromagnetic waves in the spectrum. You have the stubborn newbies who want asspats rather than to learn anything, the newbies who want to learn but are reluctant/scared of straying from their comfort zone, there are those who are simply overwhelmed by "the basics" and need a gentle nudge in the right direction. Then we start gettin into the gray area...What about "newbies" who are just starting out on learning the basics and want to know how they're doing? The ones who have learned all the basics and are tentatively bending the rules and exploring different possibilities to accomodate their creative ideas? Not to mention different TYPES of basics! Someone might have nailed anatimy but can't get their head around colour theory. Someone esle might be amazing at both but suck at composition. Where would we place all of these guys?

    And as for the professional side. How would you define them too? Someone with an art/design degree under their belt? Someone who works with a company or has worked on several projects in the past? Someone who is well known on the internet? Are self-taught artists professionals?

    See, I think that in an ideal world where newbies suck and professionals are amazing, splitting the section apart would work. But there is no definite divide. And I think that it's creating a rift that will really belittle those who are really keen to learn from pepple with experience but are instead tossed in with the rest of the "arrogant noobs" to circlejerk each other about their stick drawings.

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  29. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Learning art is about drawing and painting, if you spend more time surfing this site than drawing you aren't going to get very, good very fast.
    Art is about training your hand and eye abilities first, this has ben proven over and over again. Talking about making art has some uses but not as much as just drawing and trying to improve.
    You learn by doing, I don't think anyone disagrees about that. However, I was referring to your ideal of the lonely artist, which simply does not hold true for every artist out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Masterbation is what people do when they can't do what they want to do.
    It is the correct analogy.
    People masturbate because it feels good, one gets to know ones body and it "oils the system" so to speak. Sure, one might prefer to have sex, but masturbation isn't something that is just replaced by sex with another human being by default because people would rather have sex than masturbate. But w/e, this has nothing to do with anything of relevance here anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    The idea that you can critique without any ability is an eroneous one. You really can't and it creates a DA type of environment here. While it is true you may see something wrong, you will lack the knowledge to tell the person how to fix it. Or even worse convince them its not that bad. Not being able to draw and paint is a lack of skill and judgement; that same lack of abilities prevents you from giving good advice. And while its true a broken watch is right twice a day you are not a watch and making art isn't a purely mechanical process.
    Ability is not a prequiesite. I don't need to be able to draw at all to tell someone that their drawing of a an is lacking in the anatomy department, and where the flaws are. All I need to do that, is to be able to compare the drawing with reality (every human being with eyesight and a brain is more or less able to do that.) And to be able to communicate the shortcomings in an effective manner (a little less common amongst humans.) Conversely, people may be exceptional at what they do, and horrible teachers in their respective fields.

    Yes, having the ability to draw well, gives your critique more gravita than it would otherwise. I don't doubt that, but since most art is is attempting to imitate life, -or the impression of it, and most people have had to relate to real life their whole life, they have the potential of being able to tell you in a certain amount of areas where your work could improve, and it would be correct.

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    Yep I agree there are people who just want and Need! ass pats and then theres people like "Wunts", I personally have tried and tried to help this guy as have loads of others and it just bounces off and he carries of doing the same stuff and making the same mistakes. This guy is so obtuse I am genuinely surprised he hasnt posted his stuff in finaly finished.

    I think this is the sort of guy that is getting up sone and jeffs nose, no real talent but an iron bound beleif that he is getting good at this drawing lark.


    I think we should leave the forum as it is and just ignore crappy posters, if they dont respond to crits ignore them and move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot Wolfwhistle View Post
    See, I think that in an ideal world where newbies suck and professionals are amazing, splitting the section apart would work. But there is no definite divide. And I think that it's creating a rift that will really belittle those who are really keen to learn from pepple with experience but are instead tossed in with the rest of the "arrogant noobs" to circlejerk each other about their stick drawings.
    I do share your worries about what fits where really. But I'd imagine that with time, the boards would fall into their own really. I think that having newbies being able to post a thread in the "higher" CC section to be approven by a mod could mold some of those issues away.

    As for the rift between newbies and experienced artists, I'd say that it's already present. Some of the attitudes I see in the posts on this forum, really suggests to me that some of the more experienced artists think of themself as almost more equal* than the not-so accomplished artists.

    Not splitting up the board (or a potential other solution) seems like sweeping the dust under the carpet. Some of the threads really just acts as ticking bombs here, and unless people are hapy with the status quo, something kind of needs to be done...

    *All artists are equal, but some artists are more equal than others.

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    Create a new forum for critique and feedback for newbies. This would be a less specific forum where new members would come and post work, and get feedback on their work, as well as encourage the critique to be as specific as needed. e.g. if someone makes a portrait with a face that resembles something related to the ape-subgroup but with hair that looks like someone tried to paste half-boiled spagghetti to their heads they'd be told that they'd need to work the hair in regards to that piece. Even if they're lacking in the basics at other points, simply because the hair would be so horrible compared to the rest of the flaws.
    You know, I thought about the very same thing this morning. And then I thought that it would helplessly cripple the forum if there was another subdivision for certain levels of skill and finishedness.

    So I guess what it boils down to, at least in my point of view, is this: Does CA want art newbies to post for critique? I do remember a time when this was simply not the case. Or if it was, the art newbies for the most part were too scared to post. Hell yes, I was scared of this forum. And I was already published at the time, still I would never have dared to post art.

    If CA does not want newbies to post art for critique, it needs to be stated clearly. (Which is understandable and fits in with the board philosophy, for certain! The problem is that the extremely high level of CA has made it famous... which attracts new members. Also newbies.)

    If CA does want newbies to post art for critique, then not much needs to change. I do agree that nobody can "demand" critique, and I realise I probably missed something that passed between sone_one and Brandon. Newbies need to be polite, and so do the old crowd. (And this doesn't rule out being bluntly honest.) There will always be people who do feel like helping out on any given picture as long as they're being asked nicely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaEvil1 View Post
    So allow me to suggest a simple change:

    Create a new forum for critique and feedback for newbies. This would be a less specific forum where new members would come and post work, and get feedback on their work, as well as encourage the critique to be as specific as needed. e.g. if someone makes a portrait with a face that resembles something related to the ape-subgroup but with hair that looks like someone tried to paste half-boiled spagghetti to their heads they'd be told that they'd need to work the hair in regards to that piece. Even if they're lacking in the basics at other points, simply because the hair would be so horrible compared to the rest of the flaws.

    Anyway, on to the other aspect: Keep this forum with a requirement for posting (approval, X amount of posts, X amount of threads, whatever works.), and have this a place for more seasoned artists to post. If someone posts horrible works here, they'd be immediatly pointed towards the new board for feedback suited to their needs. And in turn this could make this board more of a "something is off about this composition" rather than a "People usually don't have feet that are 3 times their upper body length without knees" type board.
    That's the funniest thing I've ever read.
    Why?
    Because that's precisely why the Critique Center was created lo these many years ago, to keep noobs from cluttering up It's Finally Finished with non-pro level work. So, now we have a situation where that's not enough. Are we going to have a perpetually replicating nesting doll of forums, with infinite grades of what's "acceptable" to post in each one?

    There were no "good old days." People have been getting pissed off because the reality of CA didn't correspond with their ideal of it since at least 2002.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    That's the funniest thing I've ever read.
    Why?
    Because that's precisely why the Critique Center was created lo these many years ago, to keep noobs from cluttering up It's Finally Finished with non-pro level work. So, now we have a situation where that's not enough. Are we going to have a perpetually replicating nesting doll of forums, with infinite grades of what's "acceptable" to post in each one?

    There were no "good old days." People have been getting pissed off because the reality of CA didn't correspond with their ideal of it since at least 2002.
    +1 ... that is all

    "The whole point of practice is to do it until you can do it right." - dpaint

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Are we going to have a perpetually replicating nesting doll of forums, with infinite grades of what's "acceptable" to post in each one?
    That would take the gladiator ranking system to an all new level. I sometimes wonder whether some people think it actually works that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    That's the funniest thing I've ever read.
    Why?
    Because that's precisely why the Critique Center was created lo these many years ago, to keep noobs from cluttering up It's Finally Finished with non-pro level work. So, now we have a situation where that's not enough. Are we going to have a perpetually replicating nesting doll of forums, with infinite grades of what's "acceptable" to post in each one?

    There were no "good old days." People have been getting pissed off because the reality of CA didn't correspond with their ideal of it since at least 2002.
    Funny! I suppose a quote from Einstein about madness and repeating things over and over again might be suitable here.

    I suppose that leaves my suggestion a little on the side then. I do think however something needs to be done about this situation. I think there's way too much hostility in this forum for it to appeal to newbies and experienced artists here. Making another sticky most likely wont solve the problem either (insert Einstein quote here too.) Or maybe that's just me being oversensitive...

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