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Thread: Nelson Shanks - realism or commercial kitch?

  1. #61
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    JeffX99,

    I think we should take in consideration their young age.
    Besides, they've been probably fed up by the previous generation attitude. Their parents were sitting at all those communist party gatherings, applauding, not having enough courage to say the truth, etc.

    Now our young generation is much more open in their expressions, sometimes going too far with their "nigilism", thus looking rude.
    I don't want to say it's totally ok to leave during a performance, but I do understand their point as well.

    ~~~

    thinairart,

    I understand your point about the Academy and Russian museum being "half a world away", but being at the level of Mr. Shanks I'd refuse to work on such conditions (or better say - the lack of conditions) that he was offered here.
    Yes, he might be just a nice person to follow all the programs they've scheduled. But I hate the organizers for making him look that bad.
    To call to the Russian Museum? Yes, I'm not the only one who is going to ask the Academy and Russian Museum about this "show".

    ~~~

    Conniekat8,

    No, I don't think the title of this thread is either negative or controversial.
    But it did attracted YOUR attention, didn't it?

    Again, I've made some search and I found some works by Shanks that are good samples of contemporary realism, while others were as we call them "commercial kitch" - such as a portrait of Clinton.
    At the beginning, I was expecting someone to post really nice samples of Shanks's works (the ones I liked), but most comments were kind of the same - "how dare you...". Again, I always prefer one picture to a thousand words.

    ~~~

    You know, it's really funny to hear when someone starts blaming me for "being so bad to American artists".
    In Russian forums I make much worse comments on some contemporary Russian artists, but no one has ever blamed me for not being "patriotic".
    Why in the world I can't criticize American artists while I'm also an American? Are they all from the cast of "untouchable"?

    When I have more time I'll start a new thread, will call it smth like "Russian artists - Good, Worse, Worst". And will show you wonderful examples for your entertainment. So you'll feel better knowing there is "good" and "bad" art that doesn't have any nationality.

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    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    When I have more time I'll start a new thread, will call it smth like "Russian artists - Good, Worse, Worst". And will show you wonderful examples for your entertainment. So you'll feel better knowing there is "good" and "bad" art that doesn't have any nationality.
    how about posting a thread containing YOUR art for a change, instead of mocking other peoples efforts?

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    So you say I must be a balerina to appreciate or to criticize Baryshnikov?

    I've said it before, I'll say it again:
    - I was studying drawing at Massachusetts College of Arts
    - I worked as a graphic designer for years
    - I went into publishing business
    - I'm back to the arts, but as an art book guru and art collector, but not as a practitioner.

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    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    No, I don't think the title of this thread is either negative or controversial.
    But it did attracted YOUR attention, didn't it?
    I was giving you feedback of my first impression. Your being defensive about the thread title isn't going to change my first impression of it. I offered it because you are coming across as someone who doesn't quite understand how they come across, then they are surprized that people around them are reacting a certain way. You can learn from it, or you can decide you already know how it all works.... Either way, I already gave you my opinion on the matter, which is not likely to chage any time soon.

    It got my attention, but not in a good way. My reaction was "Oh boy, another brewing controversy", and I looked, because I never learned not to slow down and look when passing traffic accidents. It's a bad habit I have, reading and posting in controversial threads when I'm procrastinating starting my workday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    So you say I must be a balerina to appreciate or to criticize Baryshnikov?

    I've said it before, I'll say it again:
    - I was studying drawing at Massachusetts College of Arts
    - I worked as a graphic designer for years
    - I went into publishing business
    - I'm back to the arts, but as an art book guru and art collector, but not as a practitioner.
    How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    Why in the world I can't criticize American artists while I'm also an American? Are they all from the cast of "untouchable"?
    Well, you're the one that brought up that the guy is American, as if it's a significant fact of some sort. The whole post had the tone of, over here he didn't make a good impression, is this omething you americans appreciate... as if it's a national thing. Now, you're wondering why people are giving you their point of view on the subject on the nationality, that you brought into the conversation yourself.
    Other then having a few paintings of western culture icons, I don't see how the guys nationality comes into play.

    Last edited by Conniekat8; June 7th, 2011 at 04:19 AM.
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    Conniekat8,

    "How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?"

    No, I don't mind you asking.
    But please, don't mind me not answering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    Conniekat8,

    "How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?"

    No, I don't mind you asking.
    But please, don't mind me not answering.
    I don't mind at all.

    Hopefully you won't mind my passing judgement about your behavior in here without key information that could help me put it in a more forgiving perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    So you say I must be a balerina to appreciate or to criticize Baryshnikov?
    Yes, when you are talking to a bunch of other balerinas. If you are just writing criticism for the masses then no, a layman or "critic" can do that. If you don't "walk the walk", or are at least on the path, people who are will challenge you.

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    Conniekat8,

    Not at all, not at all, indeed.
    A young jerk is the same jerk when he is old. But even worse.
    The age should never be an excuse.

    ~~~

    JeffX99,

    Let me totally disagree with you on this point.
    I'm not surrounded by a "bunch" (or "exclusive club") of art professors or professional artists here. This forum is mostly visited by art novices that are eager to learn.

    Never had an argument with a musician or a composer? So you really like Stravinsky?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    A young jerk is the same jerk when he is old. But even worse.
    Actually, even at my age (42) I have quite bit of faith in young people's ability to mature, especially the 20-something crowd. Most people do learn and mature as they get older, lest they get stuck is this or that coping skill gone awry and it prevents their development. I gather those with more significant dysfunctions are in minority.

    I tend to judge older and supposedly knowledgeable people a bit more harshly then young college age kids with very little life experience.

    To me, growing old in ignorace is worse then being young and hot having had a chance to acquire much knowledge and experience.

    An old ignorant jerk is likely to stay old ignorant jerk, a young ignorant jerk may just be missing a few life lessons (or is still a teenager ).
    [Kitteh runs and hides in case there are any teenagers around]

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    and again mocking other peoples efforts ... o.0

    yet you didnt critizise anything, but how poorly this event you never went to was executed. do only i see a pattern there... beeing judgmental about something that you only know second hand?

    Never had an argument with a musician or a composer?
    youre not having an argument with mr shanks here, youre just trying to bash his efforts.

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    Eh. The thing I am wondering is why this apparently oh so prestigious school with such great artists even bother to invite this (perhaps as your describe it) less talented artist. I think there are several possibilities.

    A) This man could actually have something to offer, regardless of weather or nor he more or less talented than his contemporaries, and has been appreciated by this institution.

    B) This school isn't really that great. I mean, if they invite artists of such lower standards then something went wrong along the way. I think you should approach this institution with your concerns instead of pestering C.A. users with a thread worthy of a troll. Although I fear that perhaps like most people here they wouldn't look at your concerns with kind eyes.

    C) There is nothing really wrong with either the artist or the institution, and you are just choosing to see the artist that you relate to in a positive light, and be ridiculously anal, and dismissive of those that are foreign to you.

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    @ Book Guru

    srsly you should add Maxine Schacker on FB and just get over this place, you'll have endless bunch of themes to brag about with her.

    And please, if you want to make a new thread about Russian contemporary and throw in a bunch of Whothefuckoffsky and Noonecarezoffsky that no one on this board knows about - don't waste your time.
    That crap is sad, and there's no point in bringing it here, other than showing you can be a jerk of all trades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    They see the picture, they judge only by the final result.
    The picture you posted is NOT the finished demo - I have seen literally a dozen shanks demos -that's not more than the first two or three 20 min. sessions.

    Anyone who does not paint 'window shade' has a middle period where their paintings look very poor to untrained, poorly trained, or impatient eyes. thatis because it's a transition period where the strength of the grisssaile is lost and the artist is working from mid-tones.

    I have attached two photos, both bad quality (old camera phone) the first is a 20 minute demo shanks did of a reclining nude - a color study he can reach that level of finish quickly but in the case of a portrait, as is posted on this thread, that is not the case, the second a snap from the end of a demo video - the demo was probably 3 hours (i didn't attend this one but that's what they usually are)

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    Further, in defense of Nelson Shanks,
    He has had ENORMOUS influence on contemporary realists in NYC- and he was one of the ones fighting 'the good fight' for represtational painting throughout the sixties and 70s, when it was so unfashionable.

    He founded Incamminati-
    http://www.studioincamminati.org/

    which has some pretty impressive student work.
    http://www.studioincamminati.org/gallery.php

    and, having studied with him, I can say he's a great, sincere, enthusiastic teacher.

    I was once doing a color study of colored boxes and thinking 'this is so tedious and dull, i want to go home, had a long day at work... ' he took my brush and i almost felt embarrassed how I took it as a chore- and this guy, - in his late 60s at the time AFTER teaching all day and driving from Phili to NYC, takes over an excercise he's done thousands of times and was as enthusiastic as a kid at Christmas, ..

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    mcarmbk,

    This looks really nice, thank you!
    I mean, the 2nd one is what will be much more appreciated during his master class.
    I don't know (yet) how long the Friday session was, but if smth like this was shown, he would have received students' attention for sure.

    You seem really knowledgible about Mr. Shanks' works.
    On weekend I've been browsing websites with his works and I wanted to post one that I liked here, but I didn't save it.
    It's a Scotish looking girl, green and earthtones. Very good catch of a character. 3/4 facing, though I don't remember exactly. Very nice portrait. Any clue?
    [if you don't know, I'll find it somewhere]

    Again, smth got totally wrong with the whole organization of this event, though I found it was well advertized on American side - on Incamminati site and I also found a "Russian Art Exhibition – Sneak Preview", at www.studioincamminatirussianarttour.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    mcarmbk,

    This looks really nice, thank you!
    I mean, the 2nd one is what will be much more appreciated during his master class.
    I don't know (yet) how long the Friday session was, but if smth like this was shown, he would have received students' attention for sure.
    Well if the left in the middle of the demo then they never would have seen it to that end, perhaps they have different techniques and didn't understand that there is a middle period there the painting looks awful- sometimes Nelson would do something like put in the back ground (just an inch or so on the edge of the face) and the whole painting would pop. ... it's shame those people left, because you really need to see the whole process - and seeing the 'bad' part gives you the confidence to work through it, rather than give up.

    You seem really knowledgible about Mr. Shanks' works.
    On weekend I've been browsing websites with his works and I wanted to post one that I liked here, but I didn't save it.
    It's a Scotish looking girl, green and earthtones. Very good catch of a character. 3/4 facing, though I don't remember exactly. Very nice portrait. Any clue?
    not off hand, do you mean scottish looking red hair and fair, or dark hair/fair skin/green eyes?

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    This is what would have happened if they stayed through the whole session. He would have surprised them in the end.



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    I feel like I'm not connecting the dots here, so maybe someone can explain to me: what did this person do wrong? Why do we not like him? Is he some sort of copycat? As so far as I can see, his work seems lovely and technically sophisticated. Am I missing something?

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    It seems to be a Russian Academy art against the world of overrated non Russian Academy art sort of thing.

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    So not a fan. Makes my teeth ache.


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    Quote Originally Posted by elwell View Post
    so not a fan. Makes my teeth ache.
    ELWELL, y u no like nelson shanks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    JeffX99,

    I think we should take in consideration their young age.
    Besides, they've been probably fed up by the previous generation attitude. Their parents were sitting at all those communist party gatherings, applauding, not having enough courage to say the truth, etc.

    Now our young generation is much more open in their expressions, sometimes going too far with their "nigilism", thus looking rude.
    I don't want to say it's totally ok to leave during a performance, but I do understand their point as well.
    So it's alright for a bunch of young people to rudely leave in the middle of a demo because their parents didn't express themselves...

    Please, tell us again why Shanks is at fault for not being a prima donna about some paint-covered equipment that the Academy should have been on top of in the first place?

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    Isn't the Academy itself in charge of local advertising? Sounds like the Institute did its bit, the artist came and did what he was supposed to, but the Russian Academy let their end down, and allowed their students to be dicks to boot.

    So far almost everything Book Guru (except possibly their last post) has said casts the Academy and its students in a very bad light. Not to mention, I don't think Mr. Shanks works in a vacuum, so if he was treated so abysmally by the students, I imagine word will get around and it'll be that little bit harder for the Academy to set up future Master sessions.

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    Shanks!

    You're welcome.

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    Regardless of the class, I find his still lives technically brilliant but like a photograph, which defeats the object of art for it's own sake. There's not a lot of emotion that connects the viewer with the subject.


    I didn't think it was possible to be called an artist when you have nothing to say. It's like being a writer who publishes individual words as books and expects to be praised for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Shanks!

    You're welcome.
    What is she doing with her right hand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    What is she doing with her right hand?
    Shanking?

    At least Icarus tried!


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  42. #88
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    Actually I think there's quite a lot of emotion in his stuff. Nothing I'd hang on my walls, perhaps. But I rather like it.

    "I've got ham, but I'm not a hamster"

    Sketchy Link

    Portfolio
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  43. #89
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    Okk...

    As I'm a real fun of books with images rather than books with words (with very few exceptions), I decided to post several images from the last evaluation at the Academy.

    It was only 2 weeks ago, and it's the works made by 1st and 2nd year students. (I remind, they study for 6 years in total.) Oil and watercolor.

    No, of course they're not better than Shanks.
    But please explain to me what kind of "great master" skills Mr. Shanks could offer them - those skills that they don't have yet?
    They didn't see anything NEW or worth of attention. Blaming them for not being interested?

    Many of you're rejecting the Academy's authority. I respect your opinion. So please respect our students' opinion on not accepting Mr. Shanks authority either.

    What our Academy students really need is a good master class on art marketing. There is a huge lack and need for this knowledge there for sure.


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    www.4-art.org - art educational books
    www.Practicum.org - art educational portal
    guru@4-art.org - my direct e-mail
    Russian Academy of Arts thread - all about it

    There was a sign on the Academy building, “Free Arts”. “What’s that?”, we asked our professor. – “That’s to be able to create anything, but to create what you want to.”
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  45. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Guru View Post
    But please explain to me what kind of "great master" skills Mr. Shanks could offer them - those skills that they don't have yet?
    none, because from what you said, they either, didnt stay till the end, or (like in your case) didnt even show up.

    newest sketchbook
    oil paintings

    "Have only 4 values, but all the edges you want." Glen Orbik
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