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  1. #121
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    FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK!!!!

    Had a huge response in the writing but i exited the page and entered another...EPIC FAIL

    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    30 million people died in the Russian Revolution and under Stalins rule . This is always held up as an atheist genocide.
    Ok let me make this very clear before i start.

    Atheism didnt kill people.People killed people.
    Democracy hasn't killed people.People killed people.Democracy is a way of organising
    Communism hasnt killed people.People killed people.Communism is a way of organising.
    Religion hasnt killed people.People killed pe-You get it?


    All of those things aswell as a plythora of others, are tools.If we use them correctly than progress, humanity and good things happen.If we dont than they become instruments of death and destruction.


    Quote Originally Posted by ThabisoMhlaba View Post
    I always find it interesting when someone says "Darwinist" its not a matter of faith.

    Evolution is something that while it hasn't been proven to absolute certainty, it makes the most sense given the evidence. Its just a little hard to prove 100% since observation would take thousands of years.

    Then again, we've only known of Pluto's existence for 70 some odd years but we know it takes 248 years to orbit the sun. Cause thats what all the evidence points to. If for some reason it finishes its orbit in 238 and we don't know why. The only answer to the question would be. We Don't Know Why.
    I always found that funny too.I mean, you dont see people go around saying that they dont believe in Feymanistic physics, or that Newtonistic theories are the status-quo.

    This is the general rule that defines science.Falsibility.The ability too prove something is wrong is the founding mother (besides math and philosophy).
    There may be a small narrow probability that evolution is bollocks and that it was space aliens all along but the same still holds for gravity.The reason why these scientific theories/theorums/hypotheses exists is too cover the "I dont know gap" in reality.

    By the way here is something funny about the obsarvations of evolution http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lenski_affair

    This is where physics take over.It took more than 250 years, more than millions of hour of angry,tiresome work too be able to create the correct mathematical principals of which physics work (since physics is essentially applied mathematics).It is again prone too falsibility or evolution (say we find that that time is much sooner than we expected for a,b or c reason that may arise in the future).

    Quote Originally Posted by ThabisoMhlaba View Post
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  2. #122
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    Was raised as a protestant when I was very young.
    Thought protestant meant to protest against the idea of a god but still goes to church for the sake of tradition and boredom.

    Now I'm an anti-theïst, surrounded by creationists.
    Mouth-breathers, every single one of them.
    Absolutely ruins my day to hear them talk.

    Main reason I'm not even considering progeny. Raising a child in a world littered with people like that gives me panic attacks.

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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreekDollmaker View Post
    By the way here is something funny about the observations of evolution http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lenski_affair
    Lol thats a pretty interesting exchange. Lenski handled that brilliantly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    But Stalin didn't do that because he was an atheist, but rather because he was a communist. And according to his political beliefs religion was bad for society. (Though I do believe killing off half the population is worse... )
    Central to communisms beliefs was atheism. Killing people because they will not renounce God is clearly an atheistic act; Only an atheist could perform such an act.

    I don't understand why so many atheist go to such lengths to refuse to acknowledge such behavior.

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    If an entity exists, why is it necessary to "believe in" it?

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    Last edited by Kamber Parrk; June 4th, 2011 at 06:58 PM.
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  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by onionface View Post
    I can go on for hours about this. Just youtube some debates with Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and Sam harris. They say it much better than I.
    First thing, you mentioned suicide bombers. Do you know who the number one suicide bombers in the world are? The tamil tigers, secular marxists,
    the three "scholars" you mentioned above, are so blinded by their own idealogy that they have ignored the evidence collected by Prof. Pape, Unv of the Chicago, who is one of the foremost authorities on terrorism. Overwhelmingly, suicide bombers are doing it for ethno-national reasons. Think of the palestinians. do you really think they are fighting israel for religion? Or blood and soil.

    Dawkins and Harris are considered lightweight fanatics that are something of an embarassment to both scientists and thoughtful atheists.

    Dawkins, in fact, is a remarkably ignorant fanatic, as evidenced by this:
    http://richarddawkins.net/articles/1...ne-no-religion
    magine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Kashmir dispute, no Indo/Pakistan partition, no Israel/Palestine wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no Northern Ireland 'troubles'. Imagine no Taliban blowing up ancient statues, lashing women for showing an inch of skin, or publicly beheading blasphemers and apostates. Imagine no persecutions of the Jews - no Jews to persecute indeed, for without religion they would long ago have intermarried with the surrounding populations.

    I don't mean this as an insult, but anyone who would make such a statement is remarkably ignorant of geopoltical conflict or blinded by his own ideology.

    And as we have seen with communist ideology, - which is intrinsically athesitic, millions of people can die for just as tragic and silly reasons as not being covered with burkas.

    Dawkions criticizes something he has never taken the time to actually study. He has famously been described like someone who has read one 19th book of species of north american birds and goes on to write scathing critiques of the biological sciences.

    By the fact you are citing him and Harris (who believes pre-emptive strikes on people with the wrong religious beliefs, and both feel that a parent teaching their child religion is child abuse- if they belief that, truly then the logical end is jailing the parent, isn't it?) and your comments about 'silly fairy tales, ect, shows me you haven't given this subject much serious thought either, I would suggest that you do, before passing judgment.

    BTW the Dawkins quote above is a PERFECT example of why such utopian rationalist thinking soon leads to atheists killing christians - from the French Revolution onwards... well if only there were no religion, there would be paradise, so the logical thing to do to 'save' humanity is destroy religion and anyone who opposes its destruction.

    Last edited by mcarmbk; June 4th, 2011 at 02:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcarmbk View Post
    Central to communisms beliefs was atheism. Killing people because they will not renounce God is clearly an atheistic act; Only an atheist could perform such an act.

    I don't understand why so many atheist go to such lengths to refuse to acknowledge such behavior.
    From The Columbia encyclopedia.

    Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.
    Also.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

    Stalin killed clergy because the impeded his control. Stalinism, wanted a blitz of social change that would lead to a completely totalitarian government. He had to eliminate all other figures that might be a threat to his power. Also if you do some further research you'll see that Stalinist governments aren't really Communist in the original sense.

    From Wikipedia Stalin on Religion, just in case you thought it was that simple
    Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.[87]
    Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.[88] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, and thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.
    Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church (including the Eastern Catholic Churches), Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed.
    Also since you seem to think that he was acting "in the name of atheism".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Science
    Science in the Soviet Union was under strict ideological control by Stalin and his government, along with art and literature. There was significant progress in "ideologically safe" domains, owing to the free Soviet education system and state-financed research. However, the most notable legacy during Stalin's time was his public endorsement of the Agronomist Trofim Lysenko who rejected Mendelian genetics as "bourgeois pseudosciences" and instead supported Hybridization theories that caused widespread agricultural destruction and major setbacks in Soviet knowledge in biology. Although many scientists opposed his views, those who publicly came out were imprisoned and denounced. Some areas of physics were criticized.
    This would be directly in contention with the view point of many people who happen to be atheists.

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    I think we can all agree Hitler was an atheist, which is entirely relevant to the discussion. Obviously the answer to any debate is to associate your opponent with the worst people who ever lived. That makes you a winner. Did you know Satan believed in God? Yep, he was a theist. Theism is responsible for an eternity of pain and suffering. Thanks Theism.

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  11. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThabisoMhlaba View Post
    Ft he was acting "in the name of atheism".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Science


    This would be directly in contention with the view point of many people who happen to be atheists.
    Sigh.... the oppression of Christians started before Stalin and are consistent traits of any communist government, and enlightenment movements like the French Revolution.

    Christians were killed for not renouncing their beliefs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatme...llace_L_2009-1
    The history of Christianity in the Soviet Union was not limited to repression and secularization. Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs.[1]
    "The state was committed to the destruction of religion[2][3], and to this effect it destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic propaganda, and generally promoted 'scientific atheism' as the truth that society should accept[4][5]."

    ^ a b c d Daniel, Wallace L. "Father Aleksandr men and the struggle to recover Russia's heritage." Demokratizatsiya 17.1 (2009)
    ^ a b c d Froese, Paul. "'I am an atheist and a Muslim': Islam, communism, and ideological competition." Journal of Church and State 47.3 (2005)
    ^ a b c Paul Froese. Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Mar., 2004), pp. 35-50
    ^ a b c Haskins, Ekaterina V. "Russia's postcommunist past: the Cathedral of Christ the Savior and the reimagining of national identity." History and Memory: Studies in Representation of the Past 21.1 (2009)

    Stalin killed clergy because the impeded his control.
    Thats funny. how did the czar retain control without killing clergy? So central to stalin (and Lenin and Trotskys, and communist regimes in a dozen other countries) was an idealogy that eliminated God/religion/Christianity. Hmm wonder who that could be, mormons?

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    You guys are really getting off on a tangent here. My point in bringing up Stalin was to show that both sides have no moral ground to stand on when taken to extreme absolutism. Belief should be personal, it becomes deadly once it is codified and institutionalized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    You guys are really getting off on a tangent here. My point in bringing up Stalin was to show that both sides have no moral ground to stand on when taken to extreme absolutism. Belief should be personal, it becomes deadly once it is codified and institutionalized.
    I was hoping this thread would be philosophical, Boy, was I wrong.

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    (a+b^n)/n = x

    b^n/n = b^1 = b

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    *Goes to google search, types in counterpoint to debate. Finds article or so that agrees with my point of view. Summarize and quote said article. Bam, I might as well have a Doctorate in world history, or quantum physics (or whatever other topic) look how smart I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFierce View Post
    *Goes to google search, types in counterpoint to debate. Finds article or so that agrees with my point of view. Summarize and quote said article. Bam, I might as well have a Doctorate in world history, or quantum physics (or whatever other topic) look how smart I am.
    Well we can't just make shit up as part of the discussion can we that would defeat the purpose.

    dpaint's point is still correct that yes being atheist doesn't give you any sort of moral high ground. (Although I would argue that atheism really doesn't have very much to do with one's morality).
    The other thing is that, yeah we did go off on a tangent. Because whether or not Stalin, oppressed religious people has nothing to do with the claim their claim that God exists. Which is what the real question is. Yes Stalin, Lenin, and so on and so forth were wrong in the ways they tried to stomp out religion.

    But the fact that someone is oppressed for their beliefs does not mean that their beliefs are correct.

    It would probably be more correct to refer to people who actively move to eradicate religion as Anti-Theists. Because Atheism is simply NOT Believing, Where as anti-theism is not believing and feeling that we should get rid of all things related to Theism.

    *EDIT*Sorry just realized I assumed your position so I'll rephrase.
    @mcarmbk, what is your position on the existence of God, and if yes why?

    Last edited by ThabisoMhlaba; June 4th, 2011 at 08:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    Because the government is a necessary evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetpack42 View Post
    Believe it when it suits you, I guess.

    And
    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Belief should be personal, it becomes deadly once it is codified and institutionalized.
    Agreed.

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    Oh, my post wasn't directed towards really the Stalin debate or anyones posts specifically. Just in general on internet debates. People act like they have the universe/world figured because they can search on google.

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    make me believe in a skydaddy who favors over parasitic jews and let two daughters rape their dad and then let a "righteous man" throw his concubine to the mobs to be raped? and then uses his own hand to cut her up into bloody pieces?

    holy shit, NO THANKS.

    but i have found another god in my life who changed me forever. he is called the Flying Spaghetti Monster. i am so angry that he isn't taught in public schools. public schools only teach about the christian god and the monkey-fuckers but not my beloved spaghetti monster??! the spaghetti monster created us all with his loving noodle appendages but we have turned against Him.

    also speaking of parasitic jews, no, i dont think jews are any more parasitic than anyone else. but in the holy babble, the jews were obviously very parasitic. living on other people's lands, destroying other nations in the "promised land" because the other nations were "evil"... ugh come on how much more ethnocentric can it become? yet christians think this was A-OK because the jews were "god's chosen people". funny how they excuse all of god's murders as being "good-willed" or explain that god "works in mysterious ways"

    and then whenever christians do something atrocious, they say it's god's doing. christ, speaking of using god's name in vain.

    and i know what i am talking about, guys. i read the *most* of the bible because i am from a pestecostal family who didn't let me sleep until i read a whole book from the bible. that kind of family.

    also speaking of suicide bombers and 72 virgins.. that sounds like hell to me. what's so great about virgins anyway? every time i have sex with a virgin i will have to be patient with her as she goes "hey wait a minute my vagina is not stretched enough" and she probably would have no idea how to give me a proper blowjob. ugh, NO THANKS.
    i rather be in hot chamber with 72 fire-breathing whores who have a lot of experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    You guys are really getting off on a tangent here. My point in bringing up Stalin was to show that both sides have no moral ground to stand on when taken to extreme absolutism. Belief should be personal, it becomes deadly once it is codified and institutionalized.
    You haven't read the bible. For example: "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    Versus like these are DIRECTIONS. So if someone actually does this there will be an apology for it from those who believe that this book is without error.

    Check out this link for more.
    http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

    What book was Stalin getting his orders from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stragan View Post
    also speaking of suicide bombers and 72 virgins.. that sounds like hell to me. what's so great about virgins anyway? every time i have sex with a virgin i will have to be patient with her as she goes "hey wait a minute my vagina is not stretched enough" and she probably would have no idea how to give me a proper blowjob. ugh, NO THANKS.
    i rather be in hot chamber with 72 fire-breathing whores who have a lot of experience.
    wowoweewaaa. Fire Breathing?! that sounds scary, I'd like a little experience not too much. besides 72 is just simply too many. 3 Already sounds like alot. Its hard enough dealing with one girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThabisoMhlaba View Post
    wowoweewaaa. Fire Breathing?!
    i like girls with skills. she can make a campsite for me in Heaven Land and cook me some chicken wings just by breathing on it. plus i like a bit of danger hahahaha

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    And I thought we got off track before....

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    And I thought we got off track before....
    Just trying to lighten things up =]

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    And I thought we got off track before....
    you can add in, we always have room for more

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcarmbk View Post
    Central to communisms beliefs was atheism. Killing people because they will not renounce God is clearly an atheistic act; Only an atheist could perform such an act.

    I don't understand why so many atheist go to such lengths to refuse to acknowledge such behavior.
    Killing people for their beliefs, or refusal to believe something is not an act endemic to atheists or theists, it's an act endemic to horrible extrimism.

    Appeal to extremes is yet another logoical fallacy.

    ....and I'm not even an atheist.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcarmbk View Post
    Sigh.... the oppression of Christians started before Stalin and are consistent traits of any communist government, and enlightenment movements like the French Revolution.

    Christians were killed for not renouncing their beliefs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatme...llace_L_2009-1
    The history of Christianity in the Soviet Union was not limited to repression and secularization. Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs.[1]
    "The state was committed to the destruction of religion[2][3], and to this effect it destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic propaganda, and generally promoted 'scientific atheism' as the truth that society should accept[4][5]."

    ^ a b c d Daniel, Wallace L. "Father Aleksandr men and the struggle to recover Russia's heritage." Demokratizatsiya 17.1 (2009)
    ^ a b c d Froese, Paul. "'I am an atheist and a Muslim': Islam, communism, and ideological competition." Journal of Church and State 47.3 (2005)
    ^ a b c Paul Froese. Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Mar., 2004), pp. 35-50
    ^ a b c Haskins, Ekaterina V. "Russia's postcommunist past: the Cathedral of Christ the Savior and the reimagining of national identity." History and Memory: Studies in Representation of the Past 21.1 (2009)


    Thats funny. how did the czar retain control without killing clergy? So central to stalin (and Lenin and Trotskys, and communist regimes in a dozen other countries) was an idealogy that eliminated God/religion/Christianity. Hmm wonder who that could be, mormons?
    ok, human nature 101 + logic 101
    Just about every and any group of humans end us with few individual or a subgroup of extreme nutcases and bad apples. That's just statistical probability at work, you get enough humans together, you'll get a few severely defective in the batch.... merely... because... they exist.

    That doesn't mean that the group they claim they belong to, or it's teaching (or lack thereof) are bad. I mean, you;re bellyaching about christians being prosecuted... but man, since advent of christianity, us christians chopped up a good number of heretics ourselves.

    If one was to follow your logic, they would conclude that christians are horrible too.... again on account of extrimists. Or, the same we're trying to prevent in recent years, universal hatred and fear of muslims in general, because of few bad apples that are commiting extreme atrocities supposedly in the name of their religion.

    I mean...... seriously..... *headdesk*

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    Now, something like this... I can believe!



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  31. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Now, something like this... I can believe!

    This is True.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    ok, human nature 101 + logic 101
    Just about every and any group of humans end us with few individual or a subgroup of extreme nutcases and bad apples. That's just statistical probability at work, you get enough humans together, you'll get a few severely defective in the batch.... merely... because... they exist.

    That doesn't mean that the group they claim they belong to, or it's teaching (or lack thereof) are bad. I mean, you;re bellyaching about christians being prosecuted... but man, since advent of christianity, us christians chopped up a good number of heretics ourselves.

    If one was to follow your logic, they would conclude that christians are horrible too.... again on account of extrimists. Or, the same we're trying to prevent in recent years, universal hatred and fear of muslims in general, because of few bad apples that are commiting extreme atrocities supposedly in the name of their religion.

    I mean...... seriously..... *headdesk*

    OK how about this, all religions,political groups and countries have been dicks too each other and too them selfs and both atheistic and christian (and muslims) have done some pretty fucked up shit either because of their religion or they used religion as a scrapegoat too achieve that goal.

    Here, now lets all try too build a less shitter world by examining history and not let people that use their political or religious beliefs too achieve something in the expense of others, whether that is christian,communist,atheists,muslim,democratic,ana rchisistic or what ever else.


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  34. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreekDollmaker View Post
    OK how about this, all religions,political groups and countries have been dicks too each other and too them selfs and both atheistic and christian (and muslims) have done some pretty fucked up shit either because of their religion or they used religion as a scrapegoat too achieve that goal.

    Here, now lets all try too build a less shitter world by examining history and not let people that use their political or religious beliefs too achieve something in the expense of others, whether that is christian,communist,atheists,muslim,democratic,ana rchisistic or what ever else.
    The most power each of us has in 'fixing' this is to start with how we leed our own lives.
    Have strong somewhat conservative moral code, and not fall for anything or anyone untill thoroughly examined.
    What enables these groups to abuse power is when they get support of people they fanagled into believing or following them.

    But... achieving "whirled peas"... may take some change in himan nature. I have no idea how to fix that. I mean, what put us on top of the food chain is in part our aggressiveness and opportunism. Socialization and group behavior is meant to temper that, and teach us not to use it unecessarily and on each other. However, that doesn't always work.

    Personally, I have no idea how stuff like that can be fixed. I don't follow the experts super closely, so I could be wrong in this asseriton, but so far, I gather even the experts haven't exactly figured out how to achieve 'whirled peas' yet.

    As Kurt Vonnegut would say... "So it goes....."

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    gee buddy i want some whirled peas now

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