Raphael atau/or Leonardo ? - Page 3
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  • Raffaello -Raphael- Sanzio

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  • Leonardo Da Vinci

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Thread: Raphael atau/or Leonardo ?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    To answer the original question, comparing two similar drawings, Raphel's Pope Julius 2 study in red chalk, and leonardo's self portrait, I would say Leonardo's work is more immersive.
    Because condensing the art of two artists into two random images and judging them based on that when you have no knowledge to compare them properly but still need to make noise totally works. And it doesn't really answer the original question either.

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    Yes I said "Leonardo is the better artist" not "Leonardo's work is more immersive"

    You also didn't give the full quote where I acknowledged the limitations of that comparison but said the question could none the less be attempted by non-sheeple. Let me spell it out. Even though this comparison might be unfair, because say the drawings were made at different points in each person's career, or they were made for different purposes, or the accumulated knowledge of the population of artists was different ... it does not stop you from developing better systems for comparing them. Even though racing two horses where one carries a heavier jockey impedes the fair evaluation, you can nonetheless compare the horses. Even though the time to finish the race does not represent all the features of the horse, you can nonetheless compare the horses.

    Here is some background reading for you sheeple:

    http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_the..._of_art_games/

     

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    Yes I said "Leonardo is the better artist" not "Leonardo's work is more immersive"
    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    I would say Leonardo's work is more immersive.
    And yes, I left a part out of the quote because I figure that people can read and other people being capable of what you can't do doesn't change what you said.

    it does not stop you from developing better systems for comparing them
    Uh oh... This smells like Rational Way Of Judging Art http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212175 obviously we need more numbers to score things with.

    And look out, if you throw around "sheeple" just bit more, it might actually start meaning something.

    Last edited by TinyBird; June 22nd, 2011 at 05:28 AM.
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    But there was nothing wrong with what I said. Comparing those two works, I find Leonardo's work more immersive.

    Throwing the word 'sheeple' around is very important because there is an important concept attached: that some people are interested in developing better systems of thought, and others want to pretend everything, including systems of though as well as objects themselves, are somehow 'equal'. Like if you taught a child that there are people you know, and 'strangers', and not to get in cars with 'strangers', you are indicating the important concept that strangers are more likely to be dangerous to children. If you banned the word 'strangers' children would be less safe. Ironically that's what sheeple would want to do. Ban the word strangers. And all categories that imply hierarchy.

    As such, only sheeple object to the word sheeple.

    Anyway, so given you are a sheeple I can better understand what you say. For example, when you link to that thread it is because you merely wish to devalue all systems of ranking artworks.

    I didn't read all the thread but see how the sheeple word would help:

    "Here's the thing about arguing in forums- [sheeple's] minds are set in stone before the argument even takes place; there is no persuasion, [because they are sheeple]. It is pointless Pat. Either stick to talking to [non-sheeples] or read books from authors who actually know what they're talking about [and Icycalm's essays] instead of wasting your time with [sheeple]

    It's silly how often I've noticed you repeating yourself. There's no point, they will just keep repeating themselves with the same argument even though you already corrected them. It's a never ending cycle until one person decides not to reply [or FEMA slaughters the sheeple]. Just don't reply."


    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...=212175&page=8

    It's especially relevant because the OP seems to be from indonesia and there might not be as many sheeple and sheeple beliefs in those countries.

     

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    But there was nothing wrong with what I said. Comparing those two works, I find Leonardo's work more immersive.
    And then you contradict yourself.


    and others want to pretend everything, including systems of though as well as objects themselves, are somehow 'equal'.
    So basically because I said your way of judging art sucks (which can be argued to mean that your way is not equal to other ways of judging these artists) I want to pretend that everything is equal? Makes sense.

    As such, only sheeple object to the word sheeple.
    But when everyone is sheeple, no one can be.

    It's especially relevant because the OP seems to be from indonesia and there might not be as many sheeple and sheeple beliefs in those countries.
    Assumptions much? So basically non-sheeple decide that what they want to think is right without any reason?

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    Rational person: "hmmmm the OP posts in both english and indonesian, consistent with someone living in indonesia and learning english as a second language. A good guess would be he lives in indonesia"

    Sheeple: "OMG some people who speak indonesian might live in a different country like Thailand so we shouldn't guess what country he comes from. Exceptions are the rule. Assumptions are evil"

    Hey sheeple can you explain how I contradicted myself?

     

  7. #67
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    Person who can read: I guess TinyBird is talking about my claims of knowing the amounts of sheeples and and their sheeple beliefs in Indonesia.
    You: I guess TinyBird is talking about how I know he's from Indonesia even though his "Location" tag reads "Indonesia".

    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    Hey sheeple can you explain how I contradicted myself?
    Can you learn to read? I even quoted you.

    Or maybe I just should continue working.

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    I didn't see the location tag.

    So when someone says there 'might not' is that still an assumption? Definition:

    assumption |əˈsəm(p) sh ən|
    noun
    1 a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof

    No you need to explain how I have contradicted myself. What you should do is take two statements I made and show how they contradict each other, rather than pointing to just one statement.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    You can rank artists and artworks it's just the sheeple are afraid that if you do, you might start ranking humans in general. And that's baaaaaaaaaaaaad, baaaaaaaaaad.
    I am rather reluctant to rank artists; very often it is really difficult to compare them, especially if they worked in different styles. I just love medieval art, even though it is obviously technically not at the same level as Leonardo or Raphael. It does have other delights to offer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    I am rather reluctant to rank artists; very often it is really difficult to compare them, especially if they worked in different styles. I just love medieval art, even though it is obviously technically not at the same level as Leonardo or Raphael. It does have other delights to offer.
    The thing is though, how many renaissance artists were there, and how many have you heard about? The inclusion of artworks in galleries, books, how they were commissioned, how were they preserved etc. implies value about the works and the artists. We inherent rankings of artists.

    I also like medieval art. I think comparing art which follows say realistic rules of perspective compared to things like isometric perspective is like comparing two different genres of computer games. icycalm has developed a system for ranking games within genres, and ranking the genres themselves.

    I'm sure if the sheeple left the thread alone the non-sheeple could likewise develop a system for ranking artworks within groups (based on purpose/conventions/eras) and ranking the groups themselves. That way we could compare not only Leonardo and Raphael, but the medieval artists to the renaissance artists as well.

    Last edited by lobote; June 22nd, 2011 at 08:05 AM.
     

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    to me it doesnt matter who's better than who between those two because they're both better than me anyway haha

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.A.C. View Post
    batman may be cooler and all, but I'm not sure how he would stand a chance against superman.
    Doesn't anyone read The Dark Knight Returns anymore? Even as an old man Batman (kinda/sorta) kicks Superman's ass.

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    Last edited by jpacer; June 22nd, 2011 at 02:22 PM.
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    Uh-huh, uh-huh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Made me think of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqwoY...tailpage#t=36s

    That said, my mum says Raffaelo, definitely:





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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    I'm sure if the sheeple left the thread alone the non-sheeple could likewise develop a system for ranking artworks within groups (based on purpose/conventions/eras) and ranking the groups themselves. That way we could compare not only Leonardo and Raphael, but the medieval artists to the renaissance artists as well.
    Perhaps. Not sure I really see the point of doing so though. Neither can I be bothered.

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    Some folks around here could do with a good shearing.

    I know I could!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    Perhaps. Not sure I really see the point of doing so though. Neither can I be bothered.
    I commend your honesty I am also very lazy. But there must be some point in ranking. Why else would the OP ask the question?

    For example, there is limited resources: time to study, pages in an art book, money to spend on artwork. This allocation problem requires some form of ranking.

    If someone said: "I'm interested in Where's Waldo type illustration. Can you point to me some of the best historical examples in this genre?"

    And you had a system of ranking you could say something like: "In this genre illustrating the activity of the city is done best with simplification of people, neatness emphasis on line etc. Notable examples include Chinese scrolls (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5023/...4b3891dc3e.jpg) and medieval European artists such as Brugel (http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/...es/bruegel.jpg). It is an inferior genre to 'realistic narrative' pieces ...

    Or if someone said: "I only have a week to draw a fantasy picture, who is the best fantasy artist I should study?"

    You could say: "Frank Frazetta ..."

    etc.

    However flawed the system its of more value than the sheeple response, which is to merely mock the question and questioner and written language (duh I can communicate with youtube videos), despite complaining about the OP's level of english.

     

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    I'm guessing this here's an engineer.

    I once had an engineer ask me, in all seriousness, what was the optimum percentage of white space on a magazine page. I had to design for that man for years

    I was once on the receiving end of a critique so savagely nasty, I marched straight out of class to the office and changed my major (sketchbook).
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpacer View Post
    Doesn't anyone read The Dark Knight Returns anymore? Even as an old man Batman (kinda/sorta) kicks Superman's ass.
    I stand corrected...

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoat View Post
    I'm guessing this here's an engineer.

    I once had an engineer ask me, in all seriousness, what was the optimum percentage of white space on a magazine page. I had to design for that man for years
    I applaud you for not stabbing him with a technical pen or Stanley knife.

     

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    Like I said before a good start would be to match similar works of Rapheal and Leonardo and compare them.

    But by what criteria? To determine, we can compare different versions of the same subject by the same artist. For example, Leonardo's virgins on the rocks. In the later version he removed the pointing finger, moved the girl inwards, and improved the rythme of that figure. The pointing finger was a poor attempt to relate the girl to the other three figures.

    More could be done to show why the second piece has better design. For example, drawing the lines which the eyes are directed on, and the main shapes. I'm just giving an example.

    Another criteria would be the realism of the figures. The boys in the second piece have ugly, unrealistic heads.

    You could keep developing criteria, such as color, shading, impact ...

    But the final decision would be which criteria are most important. I think it depends on what the point of the piece is. ie. did it do what it is intended to do. If the point is to tell a story, the second one might be better because the figures better relate, and the piece has higher impact. If the point is to depict figures realistically, then the first one is better.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoat View Post
    I'm guessing this here's an engineer.
    First, assume a perfectly spherical artist...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    I commend your honesty I am also very lazy. But there must be some point in ranking. Why else would the OP ask the question?

    For example, there is limited resources: time to study, pages in an art book, money to spend on artwork. This allocation problem requires some form of ranking.

    If someone said: "I'm interested in Where's Waldo type illustration. Can you point to me some of the best historical examples in this genre?"
    To apply this analogy to the Renaissance, one could say "some of the best Renaissance artists were Leonardo, Michelangelo and Raphael."

    It is rather more difficult to then further refine the thing and choose between the three of them, and the more nit-picky the question gets, the less I feel like bothering. The answers also tend to get ever more and more subjective.

    I think it is actually difficult to compare Leonardo and Raphael, because they left two rather different bodies of work. In general I prefer Raphael's paintings to those of Leonardo (but Leo left almost no paintings to begin with.) As far as drawing is concerned I am not sure there has ever been ANY artist that has produced drawings quite a s beautiful as those of Leonardo.

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  26. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    Or if someone said: "I only have a week to draw a fantasy picture, who is the best fantasy artist I should study?"

    You could say: "Frank Frazetta ..."
    Or you could actually be helpful and ask what is the OP's skill level and what sort of fantasy picture they're trying to do. That's really the problem with ranking art and artists, the "best" fantasy artist is not the best at all fantasy, and if there's "incomplete data" so to speak, no matter how good you think some artist is, it doesn't necessarily help the person who needs to draw the fantasy image.

    If you want to do your own "best artists list", no problem with that, but how well you can actually apply that list...

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    Oh the sheeple is back. Btw I figured out how you were confused. When I said:

    Yes I said "Leonardo is the better artist" not "Leonardo's work is more immersive"

    It was not some clumsy attempt at Orwellian rewriting the past, it was sarcasm. If I wanted to deceive people about what I wrote I would use the edit button.

    As for your latest post its the usual sheeple attempt to devalue an idea rather than try to think how it can work.

     

  28. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    Btw I figured out how you were confused.
    See, it wasn't that hard, was it? I didn't even need to hold your hand while you were thinking.
    And no, I don't understand sarcasm when it's done badly in the internet, so if you want to try being funny you could put more effort to it.

    As for your latest post its the usual sheeple attempt to devalue an idea rather than try to think how it can work.
    It's your idea, you're the one who should think how it can work. Personal responsibility and all. Unless you pay someone to do your thinking for you. Of course you can say "lets build a skyscraper out of marshmallow, not that we need one, and though it's my idea its your job to figure how it works". I've seen a million "idea guys" that have ideas but no ability to get them work or be useful. If I want to help someone, I do it case by case basis and I don't need a scoring system for it.

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    If say "sheeple" over and over really fast it becomes quite a funny word.



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    Quote Originally Posted by lobote View Post
    Oh the sheeple is back. Btw I figured out how you were confused. When I said:

    Yes I said "Leonardo is the better artist" not "Leonardo's work is more immersive"

    It was not some clumsy attempt at Orwellian rewriting the past, it was sarcasm. If I wanted to deceive people about what I wrote I would use the edit button.

    As for your latest post its the usual sheeple attempt to devalue an idea rather than try to think how it can work.
    I confess: I can't for the life of me work out what you are on about.

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    “When one is painting one does not think.”
    -Raffaello Raphael Sanzio

    Last edited by MAtius Kesar, S.Sn; June 25th, 2011 at 10:04 AM.
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