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Thread: Disney - Sexism and Animation

  1. #151
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    I demand, while sitting here in my pyjamas, that a global multinational corporation should only put out product that conforms exactly to my political beliefs!

    The revolution starts now... on this thread! In the Lounge. Of a concept art website. On the internet. In my pyjamas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I demand, while sitting here in my pyjamas, that a global multinational corporation should only put out product that conforms exactly to my political beliefs!

    The revolution starts now... on this thread! In the Lounge. Of a concept art website. On the internet. In my pyjamas.
    I think that's already been said with the same kind of facetiousness earlier. Along with how easy it is it seems to get on Disney's case for anything and errthing.

    Still, well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJacks View Post
    Do children/people even look to Disney movies in order to learn about their place in society and how women should be treated? Because that would be a larger problem...
    In reality, no. That's kind of (or actually IS) why so many political cartoons fall on their ass (unless this is Jesus Camp). But in the minds of people who need to be concerned, sure, why not. <_>

    On the same note, one has to wonder why people bring up these movies and their "hidden rhetoric" at all when we've got things like Animal Farm. The book, both of the movies (animated and not animooted), and the broadway adaption with Patrick Stewart are all not subtle in the slightest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    It was 2007 for god's sakes...how brave do you have to be?
    Take a look at the Racebending movement sometime and you'll see that unless it's Will Smith Hollywood has a real problem believing that non-white, non-male protagonists are marketable, even in the current 2010 market where women and blacks see more movies than men and whites.

    Disney has been ahead of the curve for awhile now in that they use Native American, Chinese and now African-American protagonists. I give them points for using females as their leads since the very beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I demand, while sitting here in my pyjamas, that a global multinational corporation should only put out product that conforms exactly to my political beliefs!

    The revolution starts now... on this thread! In the Lounge. Of a concept art website. On the internet. In my pyjamas.
    Oh yeah? Well, I demand that you spell pajamas right!

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    Is anyone here a goon? 'Cause this place is starting to sound like Cinema Discusso. That's not necessarily a bad thing...

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  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orunitier View Post
    Is anyone here a goon? 'Cause this place is starting to sound like Cinema Discusso. That's not necessarily a bad thing...
    Just Alice the Goon. From Popeye.

    Oh wait. She's female

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  8. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    Moral: You need to take some sociology classes. Scratch that, you'd just use them and a bit of confirmation bias to suit your warped social views.
    This.

    Naomi, even when people point out your errors in logic and critical thinking you still have to be right. I don't quite understand why you have the idea that somehow you, or any woman "chooses" to be a love intrerest? You ARE a love interest (in the reproduction sense) whether you like it or not. Just as MAN is guardian, hunter, warrior, protector...whether he likes it or not. Sure, there are plenty of men "too gentle to live among wolves" that would rather not be those things...as there are plenty of women who would rather be warriors, guardians, etc...but just preferring something does not change evolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onionface View Post
    I worked on Disney animations. they havn't changed much, animation and creative roles are still domiated by men, cleanup and coloring roles and especially dope sheet checking is done by women. why? because women spot mistakes that men make, simply put.
    Women have much more patience and a much better eye when looking at details. Men are able to concentrait much better on one thing at a time, they animate faster (normally) and normally they do one thing, and do it - excellent, instead of a lot of different things - good. just the way we have evolved. I was also told the opposite a couple times, told that I am not allowed to join other departments because I am a guy, and they want girls instead, so when my job finished, I wasn't able to stay on as a color person because I have a penis.

    It was told to me when I started, and I saw how it works. And unfortuanatly in most cases there set up works. of course that doesn't mean they should blacklist all females from creative roles. and neither should men be told they don't have the skills of women.
    So even if times have changed, the way they set up their studios remains mostly the same because it works.
    Yeah Ive heard its a scientific fact women can see more different red shades than men.

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    In general women see color more effectively than men - men see value better and movement. Just has to do with different eye physiology between the sexes...men have to see better in dim conditions and track movement - women have to tell subtle health conditions and possibly plant varieties through color.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJacks View Post
    Do children/people even look to Disney movies in order to learn about their place in society and how women should be treated? Because that would be a larger problem...
    durrrr, it would be a bigger problem to think art has no effect on a society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany K. View Post
    However, humans have evolved past simple roles, to the point of intelligence. People now don't just fall into whatever role evolution gives them, thanks to intelligent thought people are capable of making whatever choices they want for their favor. It may take twice the effort for a female to take the role of a "guardian" or whatever, but it's possible.

    Women aren't the only love interest, it takes two to reproduce. In that sense, every human is a love interest.
    No, but the "roles" evolution has developed are not simply countermanded by choice. And you'd be very surprised at just how much people actually DO fall into these roles. Spend a few hours at a college bar some Friday night...or check the "Nude Artists of Concept Art"...where the OP displays herself like any other primate in estrus. I find the irony amusing.

    So far, no amount of effort or intelligent thought has enabled a man to give birth...nor a woman to play defensive lineman for the Pittsburgh Steelers. Not saying these things aren't possible...they just aren't natural.

    And yes, exactly, I've been saying that all along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by velderia View Post
    On a sidenote, some people were talking about #4: http://www.cracked.com/article_15677...haracters.html The clip was "removed by user" but there's a screenshot there.
    You can see it here:




    I find it a bit odd though that everyone seems to think the movies you watch as a child have no effect on your perception of the world. You learn the rules and traditions of your society from all sources - the people you meet, the people you see from afar, the people you see in advertisements and movies and shows and read about in books, etc. Gender roles are very specific, and we learn the appropriate behavior and attitudes of our gender from our role models, our peers, and all of the media that we absorb throughout our lives. (I'm not saying I agree that Disney is sexist and is brainwashing young girls to be mobile baby factories, just that I think it's obvious that the stories you are told growing up help build your understanding of the culture that you are a part of.)

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    I know...but not biologically a man. (Edit: That's sort of like me saying I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body...which isn't far from the truth!)

    I'll go out on a limb here...to be honest I think "men" tend to be more aware/tuned in to these "roles" because we have to deal with them...wait, ok, maybe not "more aware"...and in fact maybe not even "as aware"...but aware in a different way. I've been challenged and had to protect females many times in my life. I'm a big, mellow guy and a happy drunk (when I do)...I can't tell you how many times I've been confronted by some prick in a bar with something to prove - usually they prove they're not as tough as they thought. I've beat the shit out of a couple guys who abused their mates...so they'd know the joy. Would have killed one SOB one evening and not thought twice about it. I have zero tolerance for abusive people and bullies. Zero. One of the main reasons I'm geared that way is because it is those bastards that make it that much more difficult for women to trust men...making it harder for me to get laid. That makes me mad...

    What I'm getting at is men have to deal with this stuff on a fairly primitive level...being challenged in a bar, whether over a woman, a barstool, a place you were standing, etc. is extremely commonplace and is all about power and territory...and ultimately that is about females. The exact same way Bull Elk duke it out over females during the rut.

    Did someone say something about Disney?

    Last edited by JeffX99; April 10th, 2011 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Just adding...
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    Hey look it's a typical Disney villain. Notice how he's of non-western ethnicity and not a wealthy middle-aged white guy.



    The only grand conspiracy going on here is pretty people = good and ugly people = bad. All the villains are ugly regardless of sex or race. Except for Maleficent, she's pretty hot for an evil witch.



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    Quote Originally Posted by CKLamb View Post
    Name:  hunchback.jpg
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    But he's beautiful on the inside.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    Damn you and your quick wit. BTW, while you guys have been changing the world, I did a painting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    Yeah Ive heard its a scientific fact women can see more different red shades than men.
    Some studies suggest that they also can see ultraviolet light during a short period of their lives; however, I couldn't find journal or the study.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06256/721190-114.stm

    Woman also have higher pain tolerance than man, and can take more gravitational forces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany K. View Post
    I see what you're saying, and I agree that a good percentage of the population do fall into these evolutionary roles, but societies standards have an impact on what a man or woman does with their life. Sure, these standards are not as shallow as before, but they still exist.



    And, how many men have you dated that are SHORTER than yourself (in heels), or likely to EARN less money than your father during their lifetime?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany K. View Post
    None, never gone on a date in my life.
    D'oh!

    Awkward Object Lesson= totally derailed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    check the "Nude Artists of Concept Art"...where the OP displays herself like any other primate in estrus. I find the irony amusing.
    It certainly puts this thread into perspective.

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    what the shet

    it's in the past. sexism is less noticeable today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CKLamb View Post
    Damn you and your quick wit. BTW, while you guys have been changing the world, I did a painting.
    Sweeet! Me too....well, ok, it was last night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CKLamb View Post
    Name:  hunchback.jpg
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    You can be the bestest, most beautiful on the inside dude ever, save her life and at the end of the day still end up fucking gargoyles if your not handsome enough.


    Maybe Beast? dunno either, he wasnt all that pretty, but he was kinda rich and owned a mansion, i`m not so sure.

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    Given that most Disney movies' source material predates the modern feminist movement, it shouldn't be surprising that the heroines often occupy a "traditional" role. If anything, Disney has since the 90s aimed to be anti-sexist, hence all the plucky young heroines. The only recent Disney movie that I can see being construed as sexist is The Princess and the Frog, because it does imply that the thing Tiana needed most was a male lover rather than success in other areas of life, but even in that case there are people who claim that the movie was speaking out against her workaholism rather than her bachelorette status.

    Also, why is it that there's a ton of merchandise for the Disney princesses, but barely any for the male heroes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReneOchoNueve View Post


    You can be the bestest, most beautiful on the inside dude ever, save her life and at the end of the day still end up fucking gargoyles if your not handsome enough.
    To be fair to Disney, Victor Hugo would have been spinning in his grave even faster if Quasimodo and Esmeralda had ended up together. At least they paid lip service to the story not having a happy ending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Pilcher View Post
    Given that most Disney movies' source material predates the modern feminist movement, it shouldn't be surprising that the heroines often occupy a "traditional" role. If anything, Disney has since the 90s aimed to be anti-sexist, hence all the plucky young heroines. The only recent Disney movie that I can see being construed as sexist is The Princess and the Frog, because it does imply that the thing Tiana needed most was a male lover rather than success in other areas of life
    I thought that movie ended with her owning her own restaurant.

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    Princess and the frog tried so much to be so politically correct yet still stay true to its genre that the movie was underwhelming for what you'd expect from a disney movie. But I'm not the supposed audience for it so maybe I have a different perspective. Kids probably loved it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    I don't quite understand why you have the idea that somehow you, or any woman "chooses" to be a love intrerest? You ARE a love interest (in the reproduction sense) whether you like it or not.
    First of all, the only thing I care to be *right* about currently is memorizing the proximity principle in relationship to the tetractys in mutational alchemy.
    I'm sorry you feel like I'm somehow not conceding to you your points but for me this is a coffee break discussion. I'm not interested in winning or losing, it actually never crossed my mind. I wanted to talk and hear some interesting opinions from colorful people.

    Anyways I don't "prefer" not to be a love interest. I have decided for myself not to be in any instance. There is nothing that could change my mind about this and no laws in place that can force me to become a breeder. I don't foresee anyone in the future changing my opinion for me. So for a alot of males, yes I am not a love interest in the evolutionary sense.


    "just as MAN is guardian, hunter, warrior, protector...whether he likes it or not."

    Man is also violent, misogynistic, contributive to a highly toxic and radioactive enviroment, creative and social. Man is a lot of things, and in the 21st century first-world nations hunting and physical combat isn't very important. Upper body strength is quickly giving way to intellectual strength. "whether you like it or not" quickly becomes "going extinct whether you like it or not" if a species is really that inflexible. Women are also guardians, hunters, warriors and protectors. They're also violent, misogynistic (female circumcision is usually performed by women), able to produce radioactive toxicity (in fact the first to coin the word radioactivity) creative and social....we have a lot in common when you take boobs and the extra holes out of the picture.

    Your idea of what women are like seems largely based on an opposite image of what men are not. Women and men are comprised of individuals who are often very complex owing to genetic diversity.

    Men and women in and of themselves arn't that different, and I am only a love interest for viable mates. There is nothing that turns me off faster than someone wanting to protect and provide for me. It actually sends of level 5 warning bells in my head. My eggs don't want or need a spearchucking cavedweller. I'm a very effective spearchucker and can find my own cave. I am also smart enough to protect my own. When Woody talks about somebody poisoning the waterhole, he was talking about me. I need a ninja who can understand what being a kunoichi is all about.

    I'll tell you what does turn me on - brains and penises. Penises are pretty easy to come by - (they do in fact grow on trees even) my genetic viability was single handedly destroyed by the clever banana tree. Trees know everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digit-Aria View Post
    Take a look at the Racebending movement sometime and you'll see that unless it's Will Smith Hollywood has a real problem believing that non-white, non-male protagonists are marketable, even in the current 2010 market where women and blacks see more movies than men and whites.

    Disney has been ahead of the curve for awhile now in that they use Native American, Chinese and now African-American protagonists. I give them points for using females as their leads since the very beginning.
    I'm not giving Disney any points for "using" Native Americans, exploitation is in no way made acceptable by scarce representation. There's exploitation and then there's curiosity. Even though Dances With Wolves was obnoxious, and it can be criticized, it's also a breakthrough movie. The Native Americans are depicted as human beings, not sex objects and they didn't try to make a whole nation into some sort of sick song and dance twist on a creepy alien invader rape story as Pocahontas did. This wouldn't be so weird and disturbing if other companies wern't providing a way better example all along.

    Anyways as for what the actual tribes (who would stand to benefit from any actual positive representation) here is what they have to say about Pocahontas, and just to take the heat off of Disney a little, The Road to Eldorado (Dreamworks)

    In 1995, Roy Disney decided to release an animated movie about a Powhatan woman known as "Pocahontas". In answer to a complaint by the Powhatan Nation, he claims the film is "responsible, accurate, and respectful."

    We of the Powhatan Nation disagree. The film distorts history beyond recognition. Our offers to assist Disney with cultural and historical accuracy were rejected. Our efforts urging him to reconsider his misguided mission were spurred.

    "Pocahontas" was a nickname, meaning "the naughty one" or "spoiled child". Her real name was Matoaka. The legend is that she saved a heroic John Smith from being clubbed to death by her father in 1607 - she would have been about 10 or 11 at the time. The truth is that Smith's fellow colonists described him as an abrasive, ambitious, self-promoting mercenary soldier.
    On Eldorado from Olin Tezcatlipoca, who claims to be of South American ancestry:

    Imagine that you are living a couple of centuries in the future, and you have never heard of World War II or Nazis. Further imagine that you are being shown a movie about the Nazi commandant (portrayed as a happy-go-lucky, romantic guy named Fritz) at a concentration camp. This is a "recreational" Jewish camp where everyone is picnicking and having a great time.

    Fritz is constantly looking to get rich off the Jewish campers, and they freely offer him their gold fillings, Swiss savings accounts and other valuables. He meets an evil rabbi who wants the valuables for himself, and a beautiful Jewish girl who offers herself as a sex toy. Without ever mentioning World War II, Nazis or the Holocaust, the film ends with Fritz living happily ever after with the wealth he has acquired from the Jewish people at the camp.

    This racist-sexist scenario of lies is the equivalent to what is being done to us, the indigenous people of Mexican and Central American descent, by the new animated film The Road to El Dorado.

    Steven Spielberg's DreamWorks (the producer) and Universal Studios (the distributor) present the story of two Spaniards who stow away to the New World in the 16th century and wind up saving the village of El Dorado from a powerful priest intent on carrying out human sacrifices. This is an outrage, given the reality that the Spanish conquerors were responsible for the genocide of 23 million of our people killing 95% of our population.
    Thanks for the link btw

    sehertu mannu narāṭu ina pānāt šagapīru ningishzidda
    abrahadabra
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