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Thread: Disney - Sexism and Animation

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThabisoMhlaba View Post
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    I said it the last time and I'll say it again-- omfg people, what's with the tags?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    Not really strange as it was the primary controversy within a few weeks of its release in theatres. It's a morality tale - "Don't let the hyenas take over or they'll ruin everything!" I've unfortunately heard this sentiment echoed racistly in no uncertain words by my neighbors when I was living on an upscale Memphis street. I do feel strongly about racism itself - I never spoke to them again after that.

    I found a pretty interesting article here on Open Copy from an A.H. Itwaru, on the Lion King:

    "The use of Africa as the rightful dwelling place, the home and domain of British imperialism, is the legitimation of British imperialism which occupied and violated and underdeveloped Africa for centuries. But in this film the rightful British imperial presence magically makes every thing green and fecund, and the birds and beasts are happy and contented. Tranquility pervades. This is the direct opposite to the despoilation and devastation of Africa enacted by Euro-imperial greed."
    I think still though that the idea is present but it might be people reading into the things a lot more than is healthy. Being a citizen of a former british colony of "Rhodesia"/Zimbabwe I can't ignore what's said there but, there is a bit of craziness on both sides. My aunt (who is a professor of African History). Was very upset by Avatar because she claimed it to be the White Man's attempt to recolonize Africa.
    Which I also thought to be a little bit of an over-reaction.
    My issue overall is that people have to tie this to race. What would anyone have said if it were the opposite, and it was the hyenas who were in charge and the lions took over in the same manner? It wouldn't make much sense first of all, given the established understanding of lions as well as their relationship to each other in nature. Lions are not as numerous, and generally win out vs hyenas and they mostly deal in live prey leaving the hyenas the remains.

    Also if lions are seen as kings, which they are even by East africans then it only makes sense that their only natural rivals would seek to usurp their kingdom. And you can't have a very enticing Good vs Evil story if bad things didn't happen when the bad guys won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    Missing the point...*unconscious ignorance* acting from within humans, not within the bloody planet. Building on a nuclear facility on an unstable fault line is not only ignorant, it's almost idiotic....the earthquake is something humans can't control, but we can control our actions - the earthquake didn't build the facility - we did.

    Earthquakes really do very little damage to the planet itself - even in the case of huge volcanic explosion the earth ecosystem can rebound. Radiation is alot more threatening to *life* in general - maybe not to all life, but to ourselves. If humanity values itself - and evolutionary theory generally supports this thesis, then this is a kind of evil - one based in our own ignorance.

    Another example - if a human baby was snatched up by an eagle and eaten, to the eagle it would be a good dinner, to the humans it would be evil - just a sort of chaotic natural evil. An event can be good and evil at once. The particular evil I am talking about is the one of *unconscious ignorance*



    Spare me the psychoanalysis Oreilly - this is mindless banter to me and there's no angst or frustration present - your assumptions of me being a philosophy major are way off base and pretty dumb actually. You don't know me so stop pretending you do. I'm not trying to *convince* parents not to raise their kids on Disney movies. My kids watch whatever the hell they want - I'm pretty sure they own several Disney flicks.

    You obviously haven't been following the concept of *unconscious ignorance* and *evil* very closely, so I see no reason to bother discussing this with you further, politely, using the word *evil* is only as dumb as the person interpreting the context the word is in....
    Well no, not really. I do understand what you mean by *unconscious ignorance* despite that being totally redundant. Exactly what would be an example of CONSCIOUS ignorance? But that's not really important.

    If you recall I didn't actually call you naive or an overzealous student, I only pointed out that making wide-spread accusations can make you sound overzealous and naive, when in reality you're just passionate about something. And I wasn't trying to psychoanalyze you. I was only interpreting what I thought you were saying.

    My point about parents letting their kids watch Disney movies was only an example about how you might be portraying yourself in a debate. I don't think you're actually trying to get people to stop watching Disney movies.

    Your example about the eagle... holy- what?? Who the Hell would think an eagle was EVIL for carrying off a baby? Animals are animals and they do animal things. If you leave a baby out where an eagle can get it- well -YEAH an eagle got it. That's not evil, that's nature + bad parenting.

    Anyway, you're being very defensive and seem to want to make this personal. But in your defense, if I started a thread that someone tagged with "angry dyke" and "look at me" I would probably be pissed too. Seriously, who did that?

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    A competition is now in progress to see who can provide the most immature tags for this thread. Congratulations, they all win!

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    I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said.. I think the sexism of the employment policies of the past and the stereotypical gender portrayals of their fairytale adaptations are very different discussions and should not be confused. It's cool that Disney's trying to update their stories for modern audiences, though so far it feels very forced-PC entertainment to me. I'm curious where they're taking it. (Is a story where two gay male princes fall in love still in store for us? I would totally pay to see that! )

    What I'm really reminded of, though, are the scenes from Fantasia that feature a small black 'slave' centaur called Sunflower that prances around shining their hooves and such. You can see her in the now-cut scenes of the movie in this vid.





    And here's a list of The 9 Most Racist Disney Characters from cracked.com.

    .

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    Actually, I''m pretty sure that anyone old enough at the time of release of any Disney movie would probably catch all of the innuendo's, as well as all the visuals that seem to have a way of finding their place in the final product. Whether or not the "higher ups" consider this practice of slipping small adult bits into a product they claim is a movie for children to be acceptable is another matter - but I'm sure they know.

    In an opinionated side note - the higher ups there probably do consider it acceptable, since I'm sure it's known that Disney has a reputation for that particular practice. Then again it may just be a thing for adults to actually look forward to, since we all know that children love Disney movies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post


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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    considering the work of rivals like Ghibli
    Disney is the company that brings Ghibli work to the states, if I'm not mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
    Disney is the company that brings Ghibli work to the states, if I'm not mistaken.
    Yup, that's why John Lasseter is the man who intros most of the DVDs like Laputa. Disney also does the English dubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    The underlying battle is the game of empire, that many countries in the world have played, and continue to play. America itself is deeply involved in playing this game at the moment.

    Part of the Empire game is producing lots of children. To do this you must convince women they need to get married, stay at home and have lots of children. You do this through systematic programming.

    Every single woman in Disney ends up as a love interest.
    Resolve growing, weak...resistance is...futile! Slightly edited to reflect reality:

    The underlying battle is the game of *territory*, that *every species* in the world *plays*, ... *Humans are* deeply involved in playing this game at the moment.

    Part of the *survival* game is producing lots of children. To do this you must *impregnate* women. You do this through *hormones*.

    Every single woman in *the world* ends up as a love interest.

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    Humans are animals just like monkeys...

    dont forget that.

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    The word sexism alone seems so be a magnet for poor privileged guys with the urgent need to mansplain the world order.
    Nice tags by the way. Classy as usual !

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    Concepts = How we understand the world.

    Ideology = Constantly tells you how brilliant you are for subscribing to its concepts, which are limited by tribal concerns, juvenile emotions and a lack of experience with complexity. A kind of emotional prophylactic that hides the truth of our powerlessness from us.

    Reality = Constantly demonstrates how stupefying one's Ideology is, because of the limitations of its concepts to describe or predict reality accurately.

    Ego = A collection of iron clad concepts that make the ideological convert feel righteous and powerful. The result of Ideology telling you how brilliant you are and insulating you from the far more complex reality outside the ideological framework.

    Madness = When ideologically amplified and isolated ego is crushed by a reality it is no longer able to see objectively. The result of the long term substitution of erroneous symbol systems and concepts for direct physical experience, a miseducation of the conceptual processor of the human imagination.

    Zealotry = Rage at one's own ideological madness, coupled with an attempt to change the world to conform to one's ideolgical madness, the success of which would de facto make the zealot sane.



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    So you believe Disney is in some way part of a conspiracy to get people to produce children in order to continue the American Empire? Ignoring the fact that in developed countries the birthrate is lower than in undeveloped countries thanks to education and birth control? Or the fact that we can expand American power through business and strategic military influence rather than by just having a massive population? I don't think you know what you're talking about.

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    Ooh! Someone brave has insulted me in the tags! How anonymously courageous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aly Fell View Post
    Ooh! Someone brave has insulted me in the tags! How anonymously courageous.
    Heh, my favourite tags are "angry dyke" "feminine holocaust" "look at me" "ban me" and of course, "women's studies zealot".
    Why provide an argument when you can respond with the intellectual and emotional equivalent of "girls have cooties"?

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    I think the tags are there for google search purposes.

    Carry on...

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    Just to reiterate:

    Disney is sexist because it's female characters like dudes
    If you disagree you're sexist
    If you don't respond to this thread seriously you're sexist
    If you post silly tags you're sexist
    If you agree with this thread you're sexist
    If you have anything else to say it doesn't matter
    If you have an opinion about anything you're a brainwashed, meme-spouting tool.
    If you can tie your argument to science in some over-simplified and vague way then you win.

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    If you compare Disney's Aladdin to the original tale, there aren't a lot of differences.
    Aladdin sees a princess and falls in love, uses the lamp to impress her and defeats the evil sorceror guy.

    However, in the original, the evil sorceror was from Africa whereas the modern version uses the same race throughout. Disney didnt use any stereotypes.

    Keeping this in mind, I think people back then just saw it as a good story rather the BRUTAL OPPRESSION ON WOMEN TO MAKE BABIES!!!!

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    Well, before you go trying to drop-kick the frozen tin-foil wrapped head of Walt Disney, you have to realize that American society in the early 20th century was a lot different, across the board.

    This is from Warner Bros:



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    Quote Originally Posted by s.ketch View Post
    Just to reiterate:

    Disney is sexist because it's female characters like dudes
    If you disagree you're sexist
    If you don't respond to this thread seriously you're sexist
    If you post silly tags you're sexist
    If you agree with this thread you're sexist
    If you have anything else to say it doesn't matter
    If you have an opinion about anything you're a brainwashed, meme-spouting tool.
    If you can tie your argument to science in some over-simplified and vague way then you win.

    The Lounge - tackling society's biggest problems, one stupid thread at a time.
    skip to 3:30


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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    It's about producing infants to grow up and fight in the Empire. The baby machine hasn't changed in thousands of years and it's a key ingredient in maintaining control over smaller nations that have been invaded, pillaged and enslaved. Yesterday it was India for Britain, today it's Iraq for the U.S.A., Tibet for China...the list goes on and on.
    Oh my. I really wasn't expecting to read something like this from the OP. I really wasn't.

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    I read of a poet in class today who believes every art has a political undertone. And sometimes that is an unconscious motif from the artist, but a fully conscious motif from the educated artist. I think Disney as a company, are intelligent enough to be aware of the psychological effects of their art and of the political undertones. They were/are aware of the shock/illusionary effects that film/animation can have, especially on children, their targeted audience.

    Considering the political cartoons they've done for the US government, of course they're fully aware of that. One in particular involves Hitler and the Germans use of propaganda to control children.



    What is ironic about this cartoon is the same tactics that Disney is warning people of, are what they are using in their movies. Though compared to Nazi Germany, Disney doesn't come off as much of a threat, but their movies are none the less, poisonous to a society. Their movies to me can be compared to The birth of a Nation- the subject of the movie is offensive, but is still admired for being a technical pioneer in the movie industry. I think Disney are animation pioneers, I admire their technical skills. But few people realize how kitschy the subjects of their animations are. They totally strip the original hidden concepts of those fairy tales and turn them into shallow garbage that sometimes contain Disney's own political concepts. (The more recent Alice in Wonderland is a clear example of that.)

    Last edited by nauvice; April 7th, 2011 at 10:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Well, before you go trying to drop-kick the frozen tin-foil wrapped head of Walt Disney, you have to realize that American society in the early 20th century was a lot different, across the board.

    This is from Warner Bros:
    straw man argument. Person A says "George bush was a terrible president", Person B says "well there are other bad presidents". That does not refute Person's A's argument, it brings up something irrelevant to avoid answering the original statement.

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    Look OP, we are in agreement that it'd be nice if more stories that break the mold are made, but for the love of all things nice please don't bring conspiracy theories into this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    straw man argument. Person A says "George bush was a terrible president", Person B says "well there are other bad presidents". That does not refute Person's A's argument, it brings up something irrelevant to avoid answering the original statement.
    That's not a straw man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    straw man argument. Person A says "George bush was a terrible president", Person B says "well there are other bad presidents". That does not refute Person's A's argument, it brings up something irrelevant to avoid answering the original statement.
    Nope! Try again. A straw man argument involves misstating or oversimplifying a position so that it can be easily attacked and refuted.

    The scenario you describe involves a non-sequitur or, perhaps, a red herring.

    Pointing out that Disney and Warner Bros. works in the early part of the 20th century were both part of the cultural mores at large isn't really even an argument!

    Last edited by Kamber Parrk; April 7th, 2011 at 10:46 PM.
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    Straw Man is building a false opponent and arguing against that instead of what's actually on the table. For instance, arguing against antiquated culture as if contemporary society still held such views. Which is what most of you hippies around here do. And then you go to your hippie friends and go "Society is so sexist! Look at this nearly century old cartoon as proof!" And they solemnly shake their heads and go "Yes. And you are so culturally aware and progressive for pointing that out." Then you probably go have orgies and smoke Marxist literature or whatever hippies do nowadays.

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