Bargue, Digitally ?
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    Bargue, Digitally ?

    Hello ,

    I recently got my hands on Charles Bargue Drawing Course. I always wanted to give it a try since many schools seemed to push their students to try it as part of the learning process.. I think I understand the point of it, why it must be perfect, why so much time need to be spent on them... since the objective is to perfect your eyes, and improve your ability to measure what you see. Bargue also suggest to use the sight-size technique to do them.

    Has anyone ever tried to do them digitally? Having the original and your drawing side by side in a document , using photoshop guides as plumblines, and zooming out as you would in real life from your subject to compare your drawing to the original. Outlining the shadows the same way you would from life and saving the rendering for the end.

    I think most of the challenges and benefits could still be there, in terms of getting an accurate drawing, and functional values...although you would not practice chalk or any traditional media doing them this way

    Dont get me wrong here, im not trying to make it easier, im just asking out of curiosity... and since i dont really have space for a sigh size drawing setup, this could probably be a nice alternative.

    Sorry if this was covered somewhere else in the past, I know there are a lot of threads about Bargue copies.

    Cheers

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    I suspect it would be a waste of time - but give it a shot and let us know what you think!

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    Isso09 did this:
    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...ghlight=bargue

    You can try asking him about his experience with it, but it looks like it helped him.

    I wouldn't recommend doing it like the book suggests really though, it is a very boring process and too mechanical for my liking. Just copy them out and pay attention to values and you will improve.

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    I had fun.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    i did one traditionally once, digital should be easier because you can erase and move stuff as you want. also you can zoom in and out and flip the canvas and stuff. you can go two steps away but the drawing distance remains the same.

    I think the most you can learn from bargue is spending really much time on one drawing, and not rushing it or having to finish it in one sitting , just being patient.

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    Kfeeras: thanks for the advice buddy, ill definetly try it out and try taking my time.. thats one thing i need to improve, patience and commitement

    Omenspirit: Hehehe yeah i saw that in your SB Glad yo hear someone had fun doing it , a lot of people seem to have hated the experience.

    Andrew Sonea: Thanks so much for that link, it really conviced me that it could be worth it to do them digitally... How would you suggest copying them if not using the way the book explain ??

    Jeff: Hehehe we will see ill sure give it a shot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virg View Post
    Kfeeras: thanks for the advice buddy, ill definetly try it out and try taking my time.. thats one thing i need to improve, patience and commitement

    Omenspirit: Hehehe yeah i saw that in your SB Glad yo hear someone had fun doing it , a lot of people seem to have hated the experience.

    Andrew Sonea: Thanks so much for that link, it really conviced me that it could be worth it to do them digitally... How would you suggest copying them if not using the way the book explain ??

    Jeff: Hehehe we will see ill sure give it a shot
    <----obsessive compulsive.


    I say, I would be the pupil in the "Return to the 36 chambers of Death" that would have enjoyed diving his hands into super hot vats of dirt!



    But really, trying the Bargue's depends on your mentality. Me, I free-flow better within a structed system while others feel restricted.

    Some of the most beautiful artwork has come from restriction.

    It's like walking with weights on. Once off, watch how you fly!

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Sonea View Post
    Isso09 did this:
    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...ghlight=bargue

    You can try asking him about his experience with it, but it looks like it helped him.

    wow. those were - how can I put this mildly? - embarrassing. really, talk about missing the point, talk about being off the mark, talk about wasting your time.

    I've done six Bargue plates. It took me 7 months or so. Granted, I am not too quick on the uptake, but Bargue drawings are supposed to force yourself to see and copy accurately, and that is a painstaking process if done right.
    can it be done digitally? in theory, I don't see why not. on the other hand, I don't see the point. Is space the main issue? Surely hanging two sheets of paper side by side on your wall and taking a step back to compare the two doesn't require a hangar? You can do it in a phone booth.
    The beauty of working from Bargue plates (or rather, the easy part) is that you don't need the exacting sight size measuring of a cast drawing, seeing as your copy is perfectly life-size and 2D.
    furthermore, the main reason to do it in pencil and charcoal is to exercise your ability to control line quality, transitions and smoothness, exercises which will be completely lost when done digitally.

    you say you've understood the point of Bargue drawing, and it seems you have in theory. now commit: success is 10% inspiration but 90% perspiration, and Bargues will indeed make you sweat. Hell, I've seen grown men cry over them (no joke). That's how you know you're making progress. Good luck.

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    Perhaps this isn't the best place to be arguing this, but I am of the opinion that sight-size has more limitations than positives, and really would never personally use it or advocate using it. This is an interesting read:
    http://www.atelierstockholm.se/docum...0Method%20.pdf

    Furthermore, from my (admittedly very limited) experience in using sight-size, I wanted to shoot myself and nearly died from boredom. It was far too mechanical for my liking, didn't feel natural at all, and killed all the fun I found in drawing. I have since tried copying Bargue without using sight-size and felt I still learnt a lot in terms of rendering and values, but the difference is I actually enjoyed it. I also didn't spend a month on it, because in my opinion it isn't really useful spending that much time on a single drawing. The Bargue plates were not intended to be drawn that accurately; it is a relatively recent approach to copying them.

    Now, some people may be perfectly content with still lifes or figurative works that use sight-size, but that is not my goal. I am interested in illustration, and for that sight-size is nearly useless in that it has no application for imaginative work and is entirely dependent upon a model. Looking through you sketchbook Virg, I feel also that the sight-size method is not very appropriate for the direction in art you are taking. I would recommend the Bargue plates, but wouldn't suggest to use sight-size and or obsess over one for weeks on end.

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    hehe duztman, thanks for adding some spice in here yeah... your right, I would be missing a lot of stuff not doing them the way they are supposed to.. I honestly have 0 experience with charcoal, and it would surely be a good time to learn,,, and surely an extra frustration.Your right, I could use any wall in my place.
    My intention of doing them digitally come from the fact that i work digitally 90% of the time, and that I intend to apply the benefits of these studies mostly to digital work. I want to improve my eye for values and my ability to measure what i see to help for further life drawing. It just seem that working with chalk would really add an insane amount of time to the process for someone like me who has almost no experience with traditional media apart from pencil...
    Maybe im just not meant to do them if im not ready to spend 3 months on a drawing ? I dont know... I just think theres still stuff to learn from these beautiful plates even if you dont use traditional media, but maybe im wrong.
    I came to the conclusion that i should probably try both...
    I never seen anybody cry over a drawing, I dont know how i would react to that haha..
    About hanging the Bargues on the wall, how did you proceed?? The book suggest that i should do larger photocopies , is that what you did ?
    Thanks for taking time to reply, sorry for my amateur english

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    Thanks Andrew, its still too early for me to say, but I feel thats why im a bit hesitant on using the sight size technique.. it reminds me wayy to much on techniques such as grid, where the goal is to purely transcribe a still model. I was thinking of studing them the same way a lot of people here do digital master painting studies and still life studies, but with an extra care for accuracy.
    I will still give the traditional way a try !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Sonea View Post
    Furthermore, from my (admittedly very limited) experience in using sight-size, I wanted to shoot myself and nearly died from boredom. It was far too mechanical for my liking, didn't feel natural at all, and killed all the fun I found in drawing. I have since tried copying Bargue without using sight-size and felt I still learnt a lot in terms of rendering and values, but the difference is I actually enjoyed it. I also didn't spend a month on it, because in my opinion it isn't really useful spending that much time on a single drawing. The Bargue plates were not intended to be drawn that accurately; it is a relatively recent approach to copying them.
    well, I guess we are off different philosophies then. I believe one benefits from doing things that are taxing and difficult, you believe having fun is the main part. I would argue that Andre Agassi become one of the world's greatest tennis players by hitting 1,000,000 balls by the age of seven, rather than feeling he had learnt to play tennis.
    I don't want to go on a rant, but it's pretty endemic of our time to not want to 'spend that much time' on something. Surely to improve you need to push things to their logical conclusion, to take them to the absolute extreme? unless you break through the barrier of 'this is pretty ok', how are going to excel?
    I spent 3 months on my first Bargue. It was embarrassing, frustrating and demotivating. Yet, pushing through and having teachers forcing you to get it right, never cutting you any slack, it made my brain create those neural pathways necessary to see accurately, and I have built on that ever since (although it's an ongoing struggle...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Virg View Post
    It just seem that working with chalk would really add an insane amount of time to the process for someone like me who has almost no experience with traditional media apart from pencil...
    Maybe im just not meant to do them if im not ready to spend 3 months on a drawing ? I dont know... I just think theres still stuff to learn from these beautiful plates even if you dont use traditional media, but maybe im wrong.
    I came to the conclusion that i should probably try both...
    I never seen anybody cry over a drawing, I dont know how i would react to that haha..
    About hanging the Bargues on the wall, how did you proceed?? The book suggest that i should do larger photocopies , is that what you did ?
    Thanks for taking time to reply, sorry for my amateur english
    Don't fret about charcoal, unless you intend to work in that particular medium. For your intents and purposes, you'll get more than enough training from doing small-size Bargues in pencil; they don't need to be bigger than A4 (i.e. 11.7 x 8.3 in).
    Fix it onto a wall (or a board on the wall, whatever) at eye-level, and alongside it a piece of paper of the same size; I used Canson's mi-teintes sheets (the smooth side). Make sure the paper matches the tone of the Bargue print-out (if any). That's it, that's your set-up. Take a step back so you can comfortably can flick your eyes between the plate and your drawing, and you're golden.
    Now, all you need are some supersharp pencils and a kneaded eraser. I used mainly H and H2; don't go any softer than B. And remember, keep them RAZORSHARP at all times; you need a knife to cut the pencil into a long, tapered point, and some sandpaper to sharpen said point. This will allow you to achieve those wonderfully clean lines and subtle transitions.
    In the beginning, don't be afraid to second-guess yourself. Make sight-size measurements to the best of your abilities, but don't be shy to double-check your measurements by using a ruler between the plate and your drawing; consider it like training-wheels, which you'll hopefully rely less and less on.
    Your eyes will play tricks on you, and your drawing will look more accurate than it actually is. Therefore, use a small mirror to look at it upside-down, or from the side, or over your shoulder. this will give you new perspective on things and keep your eyes fresh.
    when you think you're done, you probably won't be, so leave it and come back to it the next day. rinse and repeat until you no longer know which is the Bargue and which is your drawing.
    Any questions, let me know.

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    I did mine in pencil. Still not the best at charcoal, so I used the best item for learning.

    And I agree with duzt.

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    just forgot to mention; drop a plumb-line over the Bargue plate, as well as your drawing (make sure their perfectly parallel.). This will help you establish some truths and measuring points, especially when you're starting out.
    I hope I don't need to point out the importance of keeping them consistent, but I'll do it anyway: tape and mark those lines!

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    I have the Bargue book but I havent spent to much time on it. It was way to difficult to have the book and trying to draw next to it without ripping the pages out. Even then they still wouldnt be the correct size. Digital would be kinda the same issue. One day I will go the a print store and have proper sizes printed for me to copy. I have so much material I need to go over now that that likely wont happen for awhile.

    Last edited by Kangum; March 30th, 2011 at 04:05 PM.
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    At the moment I've started my first bargue copy and it's very pain stalking. The one I'm doing at the moment is being done digitally on my tablet pc. While I understand this isnt how it was originally intended to be done I believe ill learn the same lessons out of the study. I must be getting something out of it as it's still frustrating me with the difficulty to get it right.

    Mind you in a week ill be attending an atelier and will be doing these traditionally with guidance from my teachers. Regardless I plan on finishing this digital bargue copy, and it will be perfect even if it takes me a few months >< Won't be using any airbrush, just 100% hard round with opacity set to pressure. The biggest lesson I think I can get from Bargue copies is just the patience to sit done and bring something to a very high finish. I have a hard time finishing the things I do, I rack deciprine.

    Last edited by Alex Eh; June 27th, 2011 at 06:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Sonea View Post
    Perhaps this isn't the best place to be arguing this, but I am of the opinion that sight-size has more limitations than positives, and really would never personally use it or advocate using it. This is an interesting read:
    http://www.atelierstockholm.se/docum...0Method%20.pdf
    I have seen this article before. Pity they don't tell you what you should use in the place of sight-size!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogmatix View Post
    I have seen this article before. Pity they don't tell you what you should use in the place of sight-size!
    Probably comparative method.

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    I think the problem with the linked studies is...

    "obvious airbrush is obvious"
    It's not that airbrushing doesn't have its place but in a sense it's messing up the form of the drawings.

    I have the book too and yes, there are different ways to study from them. I think the one linked can learn better by trying to use the same brush for all values.

    For example, something like this: http://romero-hidalgo.tripod.com/sit.../torsocla2.jpg seems to convey the form - where the digital ones do seem to be loosing something in the translation.

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