Calibration and photoshop help
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    Calibration and photoshop help

    hi there, i have some questions relating to photoshop. I have a spyder2 calibrator, my lcd monitor is using sRGB color space default. When I calibrate it creates a new profile and tells me to select it for the monitor in desktop /control panel display. I do my digital art in adobe rgb, do I have to change any profiles in photoshop for it to work and what do i do with the preserve embedded profiles in color settings, leave them on or off. Should my digital artwork have no embedded profiles, and does the calibrator , change the entire profile automatically so it wouldn't matter what color space profile I select in photoshop?Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    I do my digital art in adobe rgb, do I have to change any profiles in photoshop for it to work
    When you start Photoshop, it loads your system color profile (the one you set in your control panel). With this profile, Photoshop is able to know what colors your monitor can display and what monitor RGB value is necessary to obtain those colors.
    When opening an image, you have nothing to do, it is done automatically (depending on your settings anyway) considering embedded color profile. Images which don't have color profile will be seen considering your Photoshop settings:
    Photoshop will simply use your monitor colors if you deactivated color management for newly created document and document without any embedded profile. But it can always ask what to do for document with embedded profile if you check "ask when opening" under "profile mismatches".

    Remember the options you have under "color settings" (color management policies and working space) are there to avoid you to select a color profile for every image. That allows to set the default behavior. You can also deactivate color management and assign a color profile later or you can replace or convert color profile at any moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    and what do i do with the preserve embedded profiles in color settings, leave them on or off.
    That depends on you. If you check "ask when opening" under "profile mismatches", you will be able to decide for every image.
    Usually, it is better to preserve embedded profile but if this profile is a device dependent color profile (like scanner/monitor profile...), you will need to convert to something else...so, that depends.
    If you need to open hundred of images with embedded profile, you may change the settings to prevent Photoshop asking you for all of them. So, again, that depends of what you need to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    Should my digital artwork have no embedded profiles, and does the calibrator , change the entire profile automatically so it wouldn't matter what color space profile I select in photoshop?Thanks
    Your calibrator is "just" able to create a color profile that allows Photoshop to know what colors can display your monitor and how to display the needed colors. So, inside the created color profile, your calibrator created your monitor color space which will be used by Photoshop.
    The created profile fix your monitor display also, but this modification is not exactly a part of color management, it is a necessary base that makes your monitor display colors in a correct way. You can also read my post here for more information about how color management works.

    Once the profile is created and loaded in your system, your calibrator becomes useless till you calibrate again your device. If you change your system profile, you should restart Photoshop.

    The color management works only if every used link of the chain has its own profile (monitor, image, printer.... Anyway, if your document have not any embedded profile, it will be displayed depending on your Photoshop settings for this specific case. Document without embedded profile is supposed to be sRGB image anyway...so if you work with Adobe RGB and you would like to share your work, you should embed a profile with your artwork. If you want to post your work on internet, you need to know only Firefox (from version 3), Safari and Internet Explorer 9 (this one is supporting partially color management) are able to use embedded profile which means if you are using Adobe RGB, you will need to convert your image to sRGB.
    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    hi there, i have some questions relating to photoshop. I have a spyder2 calibrator, my lcd monitor is using sRGB color space default. When I calibrate it creates a new profile and tells me to select it for the monitor in desktop /control panel display. I do my digital art in adobe rgb
    I'm not sure what you mean by "my lcd monitor is using sRGB color space default". If your monitor is sRGB monitor, your monitor profile is the profile your calibrator has made which is a bit different than sRGB.
    Now, it is not recommended using Adobe RGB color space if your monitor is able to display sRGB only. You need to know lots of colors won't be displayed correctly because of difference between the two color spaces:
    this image shows in a relative way what happens when you try displaying Adobe RGB colors on sRGB display.

    You can see biggest issues with "pure" green/cyan and "pure" red/magenta colors.

    Since a sRGB monitor is unable to display colors out of its gamut, Photoshop needs to use monitor color for emulation (this example is made with perfect sRGB color space as monitor profile)


    You can also take a look at this hue wheel for Adobe RGB/sRGB comparison. Of course, it is done in a relative way. The colors from the wheel are correct in an absolute way only if you use a perfect Adobe RGB display. But the relative way is enough to understand the differences.

    Now, there is no real reason using Adobe RGB for painting excepted if you feel limited by your monitor colors. But in this case, you will need to buy a wide gamut monitor.

    Last edited by hecartha; March 27th, 2011 at 04:01 PM.
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    Thanks so much for your help Hecartha. So I just want to clear it up a little, If I turn off all three preserve embedded profiles then photoshop will use the new calibrated profile from the monitor for creating new documents and when I open already made documents with no profiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by hecartha View Post
    Photoshop will simply use your monitor colors if you deactivated color management for newly created document and document without any embedded profile.
    If I don't turn off preserve profiles then photoshop uses its own profiles and I will not see the true monitor colors at all, is that right? I was told to use Adobe rgb for work that i want printed professionaly as colors translate better.But according to your experience I should be doing concept art in sRGB instead, which is what I thought originally but was told not to. What i meant by my monitor lcd default space was I assumed that all monitors were using sRGB by default as it was the common device independent space. So when painting I should do my work in sRGB with no embedded profiles inorder to use the calibrated monitor space and not need to embed a sRGB or adobe RGB profile or the calibrated profile for any reason unless asked to, resulting in untagged RGB. Then all I need when sending to print is convert the untagged RGB file to cmyk under the required ink limits in cutsom cmyk in working spaces and that would be good for printing.Hope i got it right? I appreciate you taking the time to read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    Thanks so much for your help Hecartha. So I just want to clear it up a little, If I turn off all three preserve embedded profiles then photoshop will use the new calibrated profile from the monitor for creating new documents and when I open already made documents with no profiles.
    When you turn off all three "preserve embedded profiles", Photoshop will use what you set there


    1- So, in the following example, Photoshop will use sRGB as RGB profile (and U.S. Web Coated v2 as CMYK color space and so on)

    So, sRGB will be the default setting for new document just like that

    and document without any embedded profile will be seen as if they were sRGB document. But, Photoshop will not add any profile to them.
    If you load an image with another profile, Photoshop will ask you what it needs to do


    2- In the following example, Photoshop will deactivate color management and it will use your monitor native colors. That means Photoshop will not use anymore any profile.

    So, "don't color manage this document" will be the default setting for new document

    and so on

    If you are not sure about what profile is used with your image, you can check the bottom left corner of an opened document

    and you can display if a profile is embedded


    or not

    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    If I don't turn off preserve profiles then photoshop uses its own profiles and I will not see the true monitor colors at all, is that right?
    If you set preserve on these boxes, Photoshop will preserve any embedded profile without asking you.
    If you check convert, Photoshop will convert mismatching profile to the one you set there...


    Anyway, since it is not a loss less conversion (Photoshop will modify RGB value inside the file), Photoshop will ask you what it need to do

    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    I was told to use Adobe rgb for work that i want printed professionaly as colors translate better.But according to your experience I should be doing concept art in sRGB instead, which is what I thought originally but was told not to.
    That's not exact.
    In fact, Adobe RGB is an extended sRGB so, all sRGB colors are covered by Adobe RGB. That means there will not be any better translation when printing.
    But, there is a difference for printed work.
    Here is the difference:

    this image show multiple color spaces. You can see the sRGB triangle in orange and the Adobe RGB triangle in dark blue. The other shape is a standard printer profile. For now, forget about Adobe RGB. The main issue with sRGB is it is unable to cover all the colors you can print. It is weak especially with cyan but also some yellow and some magenta.


    Now, Adobe RGB is here to fix this issue, so it covers almost completely the printer color space but it introduces in the same time more colors that printers are unable to print.
    Usually, sRGB is preferred because of better compatibility with hardware (you can send your work or post it to internet since everyone has sRGB screen) so it prevents headache avoiding disappointing conversion. In your case, it will be also a bad idea using colors your monitor is not able to display (check again the previous wheel for the kind of difference between what your monitor can display and what Adobe RGB colors are).

    I said Adobe RGB introduced more non printable colors, here is a comparison in Photoshop using a "hue/value gradient"

    I used a Photoshop feature "gamut warning"

    That allows to show in gray the colors out of working CMYK gamut you set under color settings (here ISO coated v2)

    Observe the difference especially at -60% saturation between sRGB and Adobe RGB. Using Adobe RGB can potentially increase difficulty obtaining good printed result if you are not careful with saturated red/green/blue.
    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    What i meant by my monitor lcd default space was I assumed that all monitors were using sRGB by default as it was the common device independent space. So when painting I should do my work in sRGB with no embedded profiles inorder to use the calibrated monitor space and not need to embed a sRGB or adobe RGB profile or the calibrated profile for any reason unless asked to, resulting in untagged RGB.
    Most monitor are close enough of sRGB but they never use a perfect sRGB color space. Check this image, it shows the color displayed by multiple monitor and this one shows how Photoshop is trying to fix the issue. So, if your workflow does not use any program which does not support color management like SAI, ArtRage, MyPaint...you should use a device independent profile like sRGB (or Adobe RGB), so you would be able to send your work without the need of conversion or you could use multiple monitors or you could work on multiple computers without thinking about colors.
    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    Then all I need when sending to print is convert the untagged RGB file to cmyk under the required ink limits in cutsom cmyk in working spaces and that would be good for printing.Hope i got it right? I appreciate you taking the time to read.
    Usually, if you have made your work with a device independent profile, you don't even need to care about that because a RGB profile will be enough. But if someone ask you for CMYK image only, you will need to convert your work to their CMYK profile under edit menu/convert to profile (The working space allows to use proof setup essentially when working in RGB).

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    Thanks again for your help , really cleared everything up for me, really appreciate it. Just wondering did you learn this on your own or where did you go to school for this. i looked at some of your work especially the Breathing Sulfur pretty unreal work if I must say so.Take care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    Thanks again for your help , really cleared everything up for me, really appreciate it. Just wondering did you learn this on your own or where did you go to school for this.
    I spent some time (especially these last months) learning this on my own since there was something that doesn't match with all I knew before about color management.
    So I have read a lot about this subject and I have done many tests to confirm all of these things to a point I can at last throw away this stuff definitively without thinking "damn, I knew everything was clear enough but now there is this new information..."
    Quote Originally Posted by i like concept View Post
    i looked at some of your work especially the Breathing Sulfur pretty unreal work if I must say so.Take care.
    Thanks, it was in progress at this moment, the final has changed a lot. I will post it (this one and some others) only after recording the video about SAI I planned to do a year ago...but color management changed the order in my to do list and I would like to finish few other images about colors like those I posted here.

    Anyway, I opened this Photobucket account essentially for posting paintover on CGSociety WIP forum and for the kind of screenshot posted here also. So everything outside albums is a total mess lol

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    Hey Hecartha, thanks buddy. I know quite little than you about the photoshop. You are an ultimate genius. Anyone can find their way of making creativity themselves by following your indicative paths.

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    Thanks for the info hecarta. I thought of creating a new thread for monitor calibration since I got a new LED monitor (used to use CRT) but I stumbled upon this, so I figured I'll just ask my questions here.

    1. Using Photoshop CS3 for my digital illustrations, what's the best color profile to use? Back with my previous monitor, I used Adobe RGB profile. Now, I'm looking at my Samsung LED and it's saying Samsung - Natural Color Pro 1.0 ICM (Default). Is this okay?

    2. Somewhat related but does anyone know of a good website to help calibrate an LED monitor? Unfortunately, I cannot afford the Spyder hardware. Right now, I set the monitor back to Auto, but I think it looks kinda washed out.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jie Kageshinzo View Post
    1. Using Photoshop CS3 for my digital illustrations, what's the best color profile to use? Back with my previous monitor, I used Adobe RGB profile. Now, I'm looking at my Samsung LED and it's saying Samsung - Natural Color Pro 1.0 ICM (Default). Is this okay?
    I am not sure to understand.
    You used Adobe RGB profile as your working space in Photoshop, is that correct?

    But your Samsung profile is a device dependent profile, it is made to be used as your operating system profile for this monitor only.
    Since it is a Samsung LED profile, it probably uses white LED (WLED) which is limited to sRGB, so you need to use sRGB as your Photoshop color space .

    If you are using in your workflow some software like sketchbook pro, ArtRage, Sai, MyPaint and so on, you need to know they don't support color management, so you need to deactivate color management in Photoshop

    That means you will use your monitor native colors.
    Before sending your work to another computer (or before displaying it accurately to another monitor), you will need to convert your images to sRGB. The conversion is not lossless and it is permanent.

    About your previous working space since it was Adobe RGB, you need to be sure you embedded an Adobe RGB profile in your previous files.
    If you have some files near to be done, leave them to Adobe RGB.
    For all work in progress files which still need lot of work, I suggest to convert them in sRGB now (Edit menu).

    If you will finish them with color managed software, you can convert them like this


    If you know you will need at a moment non color managed program for deep changes about color and composition, you will need to use these settings


    Important!!
    The difference between sRGB and monitor profile depends on the precision of your monitor profile. Some manufacturers don't care about precision, so it is possible they just used an sRGB color space. There is a quick way in Photoshop to check those differences:
    1- Check your operating system is using your monitor profile
    2- Open this image in Photoshop (click on it for bigger version)

    3- Change color settings and switch from this (deactivating color management)

    to this and compare

    If you can see a difference between them, that means your monitor profile is not simply using sRGB color space, so you need to pay attention to the difference between monitor RGB and sRGB (read what I previously said about conversion)...if there is no differences, that means your profile is not precise so you can forget about issue using color managed program and non color managed program.

    Here two examples of differences for sRGB monitor and laptop screen (you will notice such comparable result in most of laptop screen, except macbook pro >2008 wich is made for excellent sRGB support and some Dell, Lenovo, Sony etc... laptop using RGB LED option which are made to display Adobe RGB).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jie Kageshinzo View Post
    2. Somewhat related but does anyone know of a good website to help calibrate an LED monitor? Unfortunately, I cannot afford the Spyder hardware.
    Lookt at this link from TFTCentral (Calibration Guide - Software Calibration Methods). Check the lagom lcd test site and the linked software. Your operating system maybe already has such tool also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jie Kageshinzo View Post
    Right now, I set the monitor back to Auto, but I think it looks kinda washed out.
    You need to be more precise since I have no idea if you are talking about washed out image inside and outside color managed program.
    If you worked before using Adobe RGB color space and you are using now for the same work Samsung profile or sRGB, that's normal everything look desaturated. You can't change the profile of an image just like that. But maybe you are talking about how your monitor is displaying color globally...

    Last edited by hecartha; April 17th, 2011 at 05:32 AM.
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