Bush's Shrinking World
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    Bush's Shrinking World

    Some of you might remember my post a couple years back documenting the release of Vincent Bugliosi's book, The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder.Vincent Bugliosi is probably most well known for his prosecution of Charles Manson.

    The United States might not be taking Bugliosi's claims seriously, but the world at large is. From Democracy Now! today:


    Facing Possible Torture Probe, Bush Cancels Swiss Trip

    Former U.S. President George W. Bush has been forced to cancel a planned trip to Switzerland after human rights attorneys threatened to take legal action against him for sanctioning the use of torture. The trip to Geneva was supposed to be Bush’s first to Europe since leaving office. He was scheduled to speak next Saturday at a dinner in honor of United Israel Appeal. The Center for Constitutional Rights said they had planned to bring a complaint against Bush under the Convention Against Torture on behalf of two men who were tortured by U.S. interrogators and held at the military base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. In addition, Amnesty International said it had sent a detailed analysis to Swiss prosecutors, claiming there was sufficient information to open a criminal investigation against Bush.

    Matthew Pollard, attorney with Amnesty International: "Well, what we’re specifically bringing to the attention of the Swiss authorities are statements that Mr. Bush himself made in early November 2010, both on broadcast television in the United States and also in print in his memoirs that were published also at the end of2010, in which he, without any apology, admits that he authorized specifically the waterboarding of several identified individuals in particular cases."
    Full article "Bush's Shrinking World"

    http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/1..._george_w_bush

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    Can't they just celebrate his greatness like they did Reagan when he died?!

    Jeez!

    Though Bush, Jr. didn't create the trickle-down effect, he still had his....

    Let me stop. I'm politically neutral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits View Post
    Can't they just celebrate his greatness like they did Reagan when he died?!
    Or just ignore his existence completely like Nixon.

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    Yeah. . .

    And the whole dang world is owed reparations from the Swiss for acting as the Nazis' bankers. . .

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    "The Swiss" you say - presumably as a collectivist. How is a Swiss teenager (for example) responsible for the illegal banking activities of people who may not even be relatives? A people cannot be held responsible for crimes of an individual unless they are involved as an accomplice or an accessory - not especially when they were not alive when the crimes occurred! Switzerland's banks have already paid reparations for their crimes to the victims - not the world - and whether it was enough or not that was neither here nor there and has little to do with the legal proceedings to bring Bush to justice. Although you may have something in the Nazi connection...if there ever were Nazis in power in the United States, Bush and his cabinet would be pretty fair candidates fitting the profile.

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    Wow, from righteousness to hipocracy in just five posts. No offence, but really...

    As an American, I agree to putting GW on trial for torture. I'd support that. And I wouldn't blame a Swiss teenager for sins that are now almost a century old, just as I am not responsible for the torturing of Guantanamo prisoners. But, we can and should place governments responsible for their actions, and Switzerland, through its laws, is still responsible for any past wrongs, no matter how old. It should pay reparations if it hasn't already. Just as America, the government, is still responsible for giving syphillis to mental patients in South America in the 60's, and Japanese internment camps in the 40's. And putting GW on trial for torture isn't enough either, because it was the government that sanctioned it, not just him.

    Last edited by TASmith; February 11th, 2011 at 03:56 AM.
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    To be punished for war crimes, individuals responsible for directly disobeying laws have to be punished. There is hardly anyone alive to punish from the war, the last remaining Nazi war criminals should of course be arrested and brought to trial no matter how old they are, and laws are already in place in Switzerland to limit banking freedoms - including the long upheld secrecy policies.

    But, we can and should place governments responsible for their actions, and Switzerland, through its laws, is still responsible for any past wrongs, no matter how old. It should pay reparations if it hasn't already.
    So who would you presume to punish? Swiss citizens, who have done nothing? You realize "governments" are made of people, real living people who may have had nothing to do with the war. Their decisions have an effect on real LIVING people. Punishing current government for past government offenses is collectivism and racism. Law revision that benefits *humanity* and prevents future criminal activity is just. Individuals are responsible for crimes, not "countries" - like corporations they have no centralized mind and no consciousness of their own. It is individuals, not innocents who should be punished. The Swiss government today is not the Swiss government of that war, because almost all people in the Swiss government are dead, and none still alive are holding offices. If anyone commits crimes today they should be punished as individuals.

    Anyone who thinks anyone should have to pay for another individual's crimes by genetic association can shove their collectivism right up their ass.

    Last edited by Izi; February 11th, 2011 at 04:53 AM.
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    . Just as America, the government, is still responsible for giving syphillis to mental patients in South America in the 60's, and Japanese internment camps in the 40's
    I want to drill this home again because this logical fallacy is all too prevalent. The individuals in the government in the 60's and 40's are responsible for these crimes against humanity not this nebulous entity *the government* you refer to all too cleanly. These individuals should be punished, and laws should be revised. "Punishing government" is impossible except to punish wrongdoers or innocent people. Government has no mind except in the living beings who represent the government. To punish the government of today would mean punishing people representing our government today. It would be as absurd as forcing Obama to serve jail time for crimes he never committed.

    This is not the middle ages where we need a "whipping boy" to serve punishment on in place of a monarch's wrongdoing.

    Especially if you are a United States citizen if that is true, you should know better. "We the People" is the first line of the constitution. I am dumbfounded by your ignorance. It is only our duty to bring the wrongdoers in our society to justice.

    And putting GW on trial for torture isn't enough either, because it was the government that sanctioned it, not just him.
    There you go again. *The Government* boogeyman does not exist except as a figment of the imagination. The government is made of people. People like you and me. Surely Bush had his accomplices and accessories. He was also *Commander In Chief* which holds great responsibility. If we are to start anywhere with any of the wrongs his administration took part in, this would be the place to do it. Excusing one filthy little slug over the actions of a nebulous construct *The Government* supposedly committing REAL crimes is advocating collectivist lawlessness that is rampant in the U.S. today to continue unabated. The individuals commit the crimes, whether aided or not, and must be brought to justice. Starting at the *Commander In Chief* of the *Government* is probably a good start.

    Last edited by Izi; February 11th, 2011 at 05:07 AM.
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    That's a compelling argument. Good point.

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    I consider this thread torture.

    Rendition is still going on, Gitmo is still open. Will there be warrant for Obama's arrest soon? I hope not. Just because you declare something to be torture, or the media that you ingest declares it, that doesn't mean it is so.

    The entire world could be in the docket right now, if it made some righteous soul with wayyyy too much time on his/her hands satisfied. What is the cut-off point? 1940? Anybody who is still alive to sue? The mere act of litigation or political will? Can we sue the Soviet Union? Can we sue Mexico for not dealing with its corruption and drug issues?

    Sure there are legitimate grievances for innocents who were wronged. And remedies should be pursued.

    But in terms of Gitmo or Rendition or any of that, protest all you want, but there are much more important issues to consider. For instance...

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    This is also relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_o...d_to_terrorism

    HAVE A NICE DAY KIDDIES!

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    I'd like to see how these opinions change in 10 years when life has handed out some real experience.

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    Japanese soldiers were tried for torturing US soldiers during World War II. The method of torture they were accused of applying was "Water Boarding". They were convicted and hanged for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldilockz View Post
    I'd like to see how these opinions change in 10 years when life has handed out some real experience.
    Please explain.

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    It speaks volumes about information flow that this thread is separate from the Egypt one.

    In the future, everyone will have 15 minutes of privacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Ross View Post
    Japanese soldiers were tried for torturing US soldiers during World War II. The method of torture they were accused of applying was "Water Boarding". They were convicted and hanged for it.
    This is another meme that is now flying around the net, being picked up by every drive-by snarker. If you look at the actual complaint, which I did, you will see that the first thing listed was punching with fists. In other words, beating the shit out of a prisoner. Water boarding is listed in the complaint, but that does not mean that was the charge that caused the conviction.

    Don't be shallow in your research. Or don't repeat what is fed to you. Dig. Everything you hear that you want to hear, that raises up your sense of righteousness, is probably a half truth.

    Dig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThabisoMhlaba View Post
    Please explain.
    It's easy to be all political activist and demand Something Be Done! when you know nothing about how it truly works. (You being general, not you personally)

    I've seen these sputtering types of threads on other forums and social network sites, demanding people be outraged about what they deem to be unnecessary torture. I've also been exposed to the "torture" and lived the life as commanded by Bush.

    My point was that I'll take these types of opinions a little more seriously when whoever it is that's "outraged" has had a little more experience or exposure to the truth. NOT what the media feeds them.

    The following pretty much sums up my opinion on this type of subject:

    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Don't be shallow in your research. Or don't repeat what is fed to you. Dig. Everything you hear that you want to hear, that raises up your sense of righteousness, is probably a half truth.

    Dig.
    ETA: This is all, of course, just my personal opinion. Worth nothing in the grand scheme

    Last edited by goldilockz; February 11th, 2011 at 01:10 PM.
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    Kev, where is that attachment from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaW_ View Post
    Kev, where is that attachment from?
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post

    * * *

    . . .if there ever were Nazis in power in the United States, Bush and his cabinet would be pretty fair candidates fitting the profile.
    Bush Derangement Syndrome= confirmed.

    Self-Godwinization of Thread Gambit= accepted.

    Check And Mate.

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    Sorry, given his eight years of incompetence and corruption anything remotely sounding like support of dubya amounts to "Bush-derangement".
    As to the smirking chimp's world shrinking, how much does he really care, considering when he first even got his passport?

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    I find it interesting today that the Swiss government has frozen Mubarak's accounts....

    I agree support of Bush is pretty deranged - before the man had even gone through his first debate I was telling my acquaintances that if he got into office things are going to get worse and worse and they would make the move towards a police state. One of them said to me "OH Naomi you don't understand how politics work." I was pretty frankly appalled by the huge outpouring of support in my state. At the time, about 80% of the vehicles I passed in traffic had the white and black W logo on them. 2 years into office people began scraping them off. Now you won't find a single one on the cars in that state.

    The general populace are easily lead and governed by fear, a fear controlled by a mafia at the heart of our government's powerful infrastructure. They are not our friends and just because you do what they say doesn't mean they will return the favor.

    Most of the people replying are on my ignore list so I find it safe to say I'm probably missing alot of idiotic conversation.....no loss on my end. Same troll different day...it's not surprising the support of bringing down Bush brought them out....

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    Machiavelli was a cool guy. He knew his shit....Wait...why are we.....still?
    Seems science is about the only thing progressing these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    The general populace are easily lead and governed by fear, a fear controlled by a mafia at the heart of our government's powerful infrastructure. They are not our friends and just because you do what they say doesn't mean they will return the favor.

    Most of the people replying are on my ignore list so I find it safe to say I'm probably missing alot of idiotic conversation.....no loss on my end. Same troll different day...it's not surprising the support of bringing down Bush brought them out....
    That can be said for both sides. The far *insert chosen side here* fit nicely into that first paragraph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    This is another meme that is now flying around the net, being picked up by every drive-by snarker. If you look at the actual complaint, which I did, you will see that the first thing listed was punching with fists. In other words, beating the shit out of a prisoner. Water boarding is listed in the complaint, but that does not mean that was the charge that caused the conviction.

    Don't be shallow in your research. Or don't repeat what is fed to you. Dig. Everything you hear that you want to hear, that raises up your sense of righteousness, is probably a half truth.

    Dig.
    Oh of course it's not like I was insinuating that waterboarding was the only thing entailed within the torture trials. I'm sure that an enemy willing to waterboard an enemy soldier wouldn't see any problem hitting them as well. However I did enough research to conclude that waterboarding is considered torture. Generally speaking, the people who say it's not torture are people who haven't had it done to them, and the people who are adamant that it is indeed torture are the ones who have had to go thru with it voluntarily or not. McCain had it done to him and is also adamant about it classification as torture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    Most of the people replying are on my ignore list so I find it safe to say I'm probably missing alot of idiotic conversation.....no loss on my end.
    Wow. Is that self flattery or arrogance?

    (I kind of hope I am on that ignore list..)



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    Naomi, I wasn't suggesting trials in Switzerland, merely that the government formally apologize and give reparations, which the US did to Japanese Americans (albeit paltry amounts).

    Kev, good research. Now, list all the Christian and Jewish violence against muslims over the past two months - you wouldn't want to be seen as one-sided.

    Oh, and good luck arguing that waterboarding isn't torture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    Now, list all the Christian and Jewish violence against muslims over the past two months - you wouldn't want to be seen as one-sided.
    My point with that was not to show that "Muslims bad", but to introduce some perspective as to the situation out there in the world... to give pause to all those who complain about detained warriors. Big Picture is more important than small picture.

    I would gladly post up a listing of the incredibly pervasive, world wide awful daily toll of Christian and Jewish violence against Muslims in the last 2 months which will conform to your received viewpoints on the matter. If you can find a comparable listing, (good luck) maybe another thread will rise up in the lounge where it will be appropriate to post it a discuss all the eyes going for eye prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    Oh, and good luck arguing that waterboarding isn't torture.
    Points for you!

    I guess you didn't want to deal with the actual case law on the matter.

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    Admitting that there's violence on both sides isn't conforming to anything but honesty. Waterboarding as torture is common sense, no legal reasoning is required. When you feel you have to break out a law book or case record to justify what you're doing to another human being, that's the point where you're supposed to reexamine your actions. It's like when Bill Clinton argued the definition of "is".

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