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    Drawing vs Painting

    Hey I was just wondering, what would be a good ratio to practice drawing versus painting? It's sort of a dilemma I'm having, I'm guessing more painting than drawing (but I should invest in both)?

    Another unrelated question....how do you achieve vibrancy in painting? Using more saturated colors and calming it down with neutrals? For example, I know that blue is most intense when it's dark, and red is most intense in its mid-value range....so would you look out for things like that when making a painting? Like if you see a dark blue shadow, you would capitalize on that by making it more saturated? Or, is it just the use of multiple colors that harmonize well together?

    i.e.



    Richard Robinson's painting.

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    Painting is just drawing with another layer of complexity on top of it. So, if you have any doubts at all about your drawing skills, spend most of your time drawing.


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    I'm fairly confident with my drawing skills (with charcoal and graphite at least), it's just color I'm not used to. I have a better understanding of value now....it's the color that's confusing me a bit. I guess I should just be aiming to match the color I'm seeing rather than thinking of 'what would make this look more colorful/moody?' I guess I'm just a bit confused on color choices for certain scenes...I want to aim for a more vibrant style.

    I think I'm going to do 1/3 drawing and 2/3 painting for where I'm at now. We'll see how that goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlyhazard View Post
    I'm fairly confident with my drawing skills
    Really?


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    I wouldn't worry about it. In the end, it almost always comes back to drawing- but sometimes you need to paint a while before you realize it.

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    Nobody can tell you what ratio would work best for you, and there's only one way to find out. Everyone learns differently. For some people, they paint in pretty much the same manner as they draw. For others, or even for the same person in a different scenario in a different mood, it's a completely different experience. Though dose said it pretty well, I think.

    That being said, I think planning or dividing shit up into "1/3 of my time doing this", or "60% of my practice time spent with graphite, 20% painting with oils, 15% getting distracted by threads with a NSFW tag, and 5% making coffee" is silly.

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    I have found it always to question preconceived notions. The saying goes "In a world of black and white, there are many shades of gray."

    Someone asks you "Do you like Coke or Pepsi?" I blow their mind with "I like both."

    "Huh? You can't like both! It's an A OR B question." Is it possible to like both? Sure. They both have unique flavors and characteristics, but people get so focused on comparing one to the other, that they never think that the 2 can also be complimentary, equal, or different by occasion.

    I have an issue with having a 1-track mind, and these exercises where I get myself to see in the larger picture have helped me objectively.

    Drawing and Painting seem to share responsibilities in art. Drawing has helped me with shape and form, painting has helped me give depth and life to my work. If someone asked me "do you draw or paint?" I'd say "both!".

    "Doing something half-assed more than once just makes you more of an ass."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Really?
    Far from professional but enough to where I think I should start painting. Maybe I should upload some stuff from traditional to show where I'm at to make a judgment?

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    You have a link to your sketchbook in your sig so we (and Elwell) can see where you are at drawing wise without you posting work here.

    Nobody is saying that you shouldn't touch colour, but more drawing than painting wouldn't hurt.

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    Yeah but that's all digital stuff from photography. I haven't uploaded any of my traditional stuff from life, mainly because I lost my digital camera . I don't really draw in photoshop well and when I do it just feels weird and slippery compared to pencil/charcoal on paper. Maybe I'll try to find my camera? It looks a lot better than what I post in there...IMO.

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    Alright its unfinished and unblended but still gives a bit of an idea of where I'm at. It was darker than what the stupid flash camera recorded(don't know how to turn off flash on this one) but it still shows what's pretty much there. Am I at a level where I should transition to both drawing and painting from life?

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    Drawing is putting the right shaped, sized mark in the right place. It doesn't stop when you put down a pencil and pick up a brush. Drawing never stops.


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    Yeah I plan to draw along with painting. I'm just wondering, since a lot of you guys say that you should draw a long time before beginning painting, would this be a good time to start delving into painting? I've dabbled in digital from photographs but have never tried traditional painting from life. Just wondering if it'd be a good time to start wet media along side drawing with graphite/charcoal.

    I assume I shouldn't plan 2/3 of this or 1/3 of this as a strict schedule and just do a mix of whatever I'm feeling according to the previous posts.

    Last edited by Deadlyhazard; February 2nd, 2011 at 09:00 PM.
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    Ya, what Elwell is saying.

    The better you can draw, the better you can paint. At least thats how it has been going for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlyhazard View Post
    Yeah I plan to draw along with painting. I'm just wondering, since a lot of you guys say that you should draw a long time before beginning painting, would this be a good time to start delving into painting? I've dabbled in digital from photographs but have never tried traditional painting from life. Just wondering if it'd be a good time to start wet media along side drawing with graphite/charcoal.

    I assume I shouldn't plan 2/3 of this or 1/3 of this as a strict schedule and just do a mix of whatever I'm feeling according to the previous posts.
    There's no harm in starting, just be aware that most of your painting problems will really be drawing problems.


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    Yeah I know that, I just wanted to start trying out color/wet media. And yeah I see that drawing and painting are quite one in the same.. Thanks for the help everyone .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Painting is just drawing with another layer of complexity on top of it. So, if you have any doubts at all about your drawing skills, spend most of your time drawing.
    To elaborate:
    Drawing is like riding a unicycle while juggling chainsaws.
    Painting is like riding a unicycle while juggling chainsaws, on a tightrope, over a shark tank.
    It's a really, really good idea to break things down into simpler, more manageable chunks if you don't want to end up sharkbait.


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    Yeah I learned that yesterday after trying to draw out every damn piece of foliage....then someone said you could simplify, say, a tree's leaves and break it into small little chunks of form (and it's still a bit hard to manage). Both drawing and painting are definitely very difficult processes. That's why I love it though, it's so challenging and you're never satisfied. At least I'm not, my stuff sucks and I know it! Just means I need to push harder (both mentally/physically), right?

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    For that portrait, fill in the white spaces with graphite. Get that hair massed in, and blend. Also, finish the left ear. Besides the shading being a tad sketchy (easy fix), you've got a good start. Unless you provide us with a reference and we discover you haven't nailed a likeness, or captured the person's energy/personality at all.

    So, how about a reference?

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    It's a self portrait and I look exactly like that yet I don't want to post my face atm ;-: (even though that shows who I am).

    Yeah it was a quick sketch in about 30-40 minutes or so...I don't feel like completing it ATM just because I wanted to move on to something I have more trouble with (the legs right now). Lots of spots I see wrong but I didnt finish the shading....right cheek looks odd to me, the leftish side of the nose looks weird with that white spot, unfinished hair/eye/ear, etc...shadings a bit darker under my massive deathchin but the camera somehow managed to not capture that (my drawing teacher seriously finds my chin to be funny since it looks really large and flat. It's a giant slab of bone and apparently harassed the person drawing my portrait today in class.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlyhazard View Post
    Yeah I know that, I just wanted to start trying out color/wet media. And yeah I see that drawing and painting are quite one in the same.. Thanks for the help everyone .
    Well, you can always jump in and try painting, flounder around, and go back to drawing some more...

    One of my freshman teachers eased us into painting by having us draw for a while using both black and white charcoal/chalk and covering every square inch of the paper (to force us to think about all the values instead of relying on the white of the paper. I think she was also trying to teach us to be thorough. We complained, but we learned.) And after we'd done that for a while she had us doing a lot of full-color drawings in pastel (again, covering every square inch of the paper...) And only after a semester of doing both of those approaches did she start us on actual paint.

    Not saying that's the one and only way to learn, but it's a couple things you could try to maybe segue from monochrome drawing into full-color painting more gradually...

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    I heard brown and orangey color to start monochrome paintings with. Maybe I'll try that at first? I'm guessing jumping into landscape painting it a bit too much at first right? Maybe I should try that with a still life. Or do that awesome charcoal suggestion you gave.

    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check 'em out.

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    I've tried to teach a lot of people how to paint - and I almost always come back to encouraging them to learn to draw. You cannot paint well in a realistic, representational manner if you don't know how to draw really well. As Elwell stated perfectly...drawing never stops...painting is just a continuation and more complex form of drawing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlyhazard View Post
    Am I at a level where I should transition to both drawing and painting from life?
    Definitely...you need to work from life to really develop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlyhazard View Post
    And yeah I see that drawing and painting are quite one in the same.. Thanks for the help everyone .
    Not to throw another curve but...drawing and painting are actually significantly different (which is what I though the thread was going to be about)...though painting is built on good drawing as mentioned.

    The main difference is drawing is typically linear/line oriented while painting is mass oriented. The closer the drawing tool gets to laying in broad strokes and passages the closer it gets to painting. I've just always found it interesting that a fairly noticeable shift in observation, process and awareness takes place for me between the two.

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    Ah I thought they would be similar in that with something like charcoal you can work almost painterly by not using line and drawing with the side of it....but obviously using blobs of color to represent something is significantly different from drawing. I guess I just kept reading that drawing was similar to painting from threads here and got a mixed idea.

    And thanks for the good advice as usual Jeff...you really are helpful.

    edit: can anyone answer that second question I had? I may not have any use for it now (I just need to match color/value when painting starting out, right?) but I've always wondered what makes a painting vibrant like that example.

    Last edited by Deadlyhazard; February 3rd, 2011 at 12:07 AM.
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    Hey you're welcome Deadly - most people around here are more than happy to help someone who seems to be working hard to understand things.

    So yes, charcoal can be treated in a very painterly fashion. Linear drawing, contour and such is actually completely artificial and an interesting phenomenon that we take for granted - there are no "outlines" in nature - just overlapping forms creating a variety of edges. Anyway, just something to be aware of for further interest.

    Keep at it!

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    Damnit I edited that too late, lol. Figured you might know a thing or two about vibrant paintings since yours are so good.

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    Ha! Thanks! In that example he's using pretty high chroma (saturated) color and strong warm/cool passages adjacent to each other. Vibrancy can be achieved using strong complements adjacent to each other...but usually at the sacrifice of harmony. These aren't rules - just ideas. He is definitely pushing his color as well to achieve a more vibrant, dynamic and graphic look - that is not what I would call natural color - though it isn't completely false either - just pushed. I tend to push my color just a bit - especially around the center of interest - though you'd be surprised, color in nature is almost always more dynamic and more subtle at the same time than people realize.

    Like Dose said way up at the top - don't worry about it too much. Yes for now stick with as accurate an observation and interpretation as you can manage - and value is the key.

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    Only that painting is not a self portrait of Ingres...

    And to what Jeff said, I wouldn't necessarily say that the difference between drawing and painting is that one is linear-based and one is mass-based. I would rather say that using a pencil or other dry media, especially if you're sketching, you usually end up drawing with a more or less line-based approach, whereas using oils or acrylics or whatever, you're drawing with a more mass-based approach. What I'm saying is, whether you lay down broad flat masses with a brush or cross-hatch with a pencil, you're still drawing. And of course you can paint in a more linear style, or use a pencil in a more mass-oriented style.

    To further complicate things, you often use the term 'drawing' to refer to a specific element of a painting you're discussing. So for example, you might say that the drawing of this particular painting is very nice, but the composition is rather boring. In that sense, at least according to my own definitions, 'drawing' means the organization of shapes and edges on the small scale, while 'composition' (or even more accurately, 'design') is the same on a large scale, including the whole picture. (And of course, the French word dessin means drawing. Ah the wonders of language).

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