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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    People seem to be taking far more offense at some replies than the OP. Unfortunately, I think the hyperbole of the thread title has infected the entire thing.
    I want to go on record to say that I actually have been slightly offended and discouraged by many of the posts. I also know that retorting credible people with equally snide comments will only end in more humiliation. Much of this I braught on myself with an unintentional misleading title, but the majority of the snide comments were un waranted. It should have been read through the tone of my initial post my excitement for this, my intention, and my eagerness to grow and learn and share (something I believe this entire community was based on).

    During the duration of this thread I have been told that I need "to start learning," with no explanation. My initial post was met largely with one liners, and towards the bottom I was told that this is such a degree of non validity, that I only "believe" I am growing from it, but in fact anything I gained from it could not of been valuable and thus I am deluding myself. (not stated word for word, but that's the meaning behind one post). Posts did not become more explanative or helpful until much further down as to the reason for the disagreement, and even then there were only a few.

    I decided to lay low and simply let the thread die, but it's not, in fact it seems to of gained more momentum.

    Clearly I take responsibility for the misleading title, and even apologized further up. But regardless, it may be that this speaks more about my own self esteem more than about this community, I doubt I will feel comfortable making further posts despite the fact that I tried dealing with this gracefully (not because I don't think this is a quality community, but because this has really been an embarassing blunder).

    I'm just saying conceptart.org, that you should think about the community you want, and think about how to make it that community. Don't fall into the faceless internet trap where words aren't important.

    P.S. Huge thanks to the few who did put a positive spin on this, and thanks to those who explained their position thoughtfully.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    To name a few, I don't believe Michelangelo, Sargent or Frazetta knew the names of all that anatomical detail.
    To be honest, I suspect Frazetta might have. He was pretty dedicated to anatomical study if his sketchbooks are anything to go by.

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  4. #33
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    Cow

    I can't help but feel in retrospect that I have caused a decent portion of the offense, for which I'd like to apologize. I am ashamed that I contributed to the blunder in the way that I did.

    I don't really have a good track record of being able to control what I'm implying, or putting thought as to how they might affect people, and this goes for other threads I've posted in.

    If it works for you, then hey, by all means. I was remarking upon the presentation, not the content. and the video I posted I hoped would example presentation rather than content.

    Please don't attribute this poor attitude to the community at large, but only the individuals (including myself) that propagated it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    We do transmutational yoga and eat alchemy sandwiches and ride flying unicorns of esoteric freudian solipsism while googling anthropology. Whee!
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  5. #34
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    I have to disagree Dusty...it does apply - to anyone interested in helping others avoid bad habits, mis-information, an approach/process/study that is not well grounded...and many of the other pitfalls the beginning artist often encounters. Pitfalls and mis-guided information so severe that it sidetracks, delays and ultimately can cause a person to abandon their interest in art. I usually figure I'm posting replies for the far greater number of people that read the thread but don't respond (lurkers), in an effort to keep some kind of value here on CA (and I think many others do so as well).
    I see your point of view, but I was mostly commenting on the one-liner vibe that a lot of people were putting off. I think there is a way to express that you think something isn't a valuable piece of information without being rude.

    And I do think some of the people were a bit rude in the thread. I don't know the person who started the thread, I just observed what seemed to be a pile-on of sorts and figured I'd at least offer my opinion so the OP didn't just think this was a more artistic 4-Chan....something a lot of forums love to emulate for some reason.

    The point where this place turns into only one-liners and pictures with text photoshopped onto them (not in this thread, but in others I have seen) is the time I stop coming here. Happily, it's far from turning into that, but it still annoys me when I see it happen.

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  7. #35
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    bustthewave: You have gotten some useful info in here. Names of artists, some books. You need to learn how to judge a post for it's content. You think I didn't tell you anything. I told you there is real knowledge, check Bridgman, look at Michelangelo, Frazetta, why should I repeat what others have said? Compare that to these people telling you that it's okay just because you got a little value out of it well that's a load of shit, why not check Bridgman etc and get a lot of value. I told you the vids are diagrams meaning that they have very very little expressive content, we need to draw therefore the explanation can't just come from the words the information comes in the form of the drawing. Pictures are made of facts, I was alluding to composition. Also I wrote "pictures" to keep the interpretation open.

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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by damascus57 View Post
    I can't help but feel in retrospect that I have caused a decent portion of the offense, for which I'd like to apologize. I am ashamed that I contributed to the blunder in the way that I did.

    I don't really have a good track record of being able to control what I'm implying, or putting thought as to how they might affect people, and this goes for other threads I've posted in.

    If it works for you, then hey, by all means. I was remarking upon the presentation, not the content. and the video I posted I hoped would example presentation rather than content.

    Please don't attribute this poor attitude to the community at large, but only the individuals (including myself) that propagated it.
    Well thanks , and honestly you're fine, and I took your response to my reply as exactly what you just explained it to be. There's no ill feelings on my end towards you.

    I know this community is great, lurking the sketchbooks alone will tell anyone that. It's gotta be the most supportive art community online.

    however-

    Normally one liners and snide comments are par for anything internet related. I can shrug them off with no problem, and I would be lieing if I said I never made a snide one liner.

    What has happened here however is that I made a thread that at the time I thought was fantastic, and expected it to help make me a productive member of the community. When the opposite happened, compounded with the fact that we are now almost at a thousand views, as I said, it was really embarasing, which in turn made me much more sensitive to the general vibe, because I actually care about building a quality reputation here.

    So this is two fold. What warrants snide remarks on the internet are posts full of arrogance, where no one's opinion matters. I can see how, while un intentionally, my thread title could have come off as just that, which is largely why I'm embarassed. But what is the community's fault here is that an assumption was made by many about the purpose and reason for the thread, and thus the internet trap of one liners began.

    Such is life, and as they say shit happens. It's... mildly funny if you think about how this all unfolded at this point, and how much of "wow I would hate to be that guy" I became in such a short ammount of time.

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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by armando View Post
    bustthewave: You have gotten some useful info in here. Names of artists, some books. You need to learn how to judge a post for it's content. You think I didn't tell you anything. I told you there is real knowledge, check Bridgman, look at Michelangelo, Frazetta, why should I repeat what others have said? Compare that to these people telling you that it's okay just because you got a little value out of it well that's a load of shit, why not check Bridgman etc and get a lot of value. I told you the vids are diagrams meaning that they have very very little expressive content, we need to draw therefore the explanation can't just come from the words the information comes in the form of the drawing. Pictures are made of facts, I was alluding to composition. Also I wrote "pictures" to keep the interpretation open.
    I didn't disregard your information, I just didn't appreciate the part where you said that the value I recieved was only a belief, and not real, and the comment was not even directed towards me but to someone else. It's like you saying "yea he's a dumbass" to someone when I'm standing right there. I was sensitive to it because I was already feeling devalued, that kind of put the nail in the coffin.

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  12. #38
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    Y'know, people seem a bit angrier than usual on CA. Maybe it's SAD or something.

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  13. #39
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    You think I called you a dumbass. I know exactly what it's like to be a beginner. I used to think Hogarth was effective, but it wasn't my fault for being fooled rather it was Hogarth's fault and anyone who recommended him to me who should have known better. Consider yourself spared that you won't waste any more time on those videos.

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  14. #40
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    Damn people I even offered to change the topic title so people would quit bickering. Far too many people are taking offense at someone's offense.

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  15. #41
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    People should stop getting butt hurt over nothing.

    If you're so keen for videos, get Vilppu's. That's the best anatomy videos ever.

    Last edited by HunterKiller_; January 6th, 2011 at 02:38 AM.
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  17. #42
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    Bustthewave--Thanks for trying to share, and please keep trying.

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  19. #43
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    what the hell?
    I think a group hug is in store.

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  21. #44
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    what the hell?
    I think a group hug is in store.

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  23. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Bradley View Post
    Y'know, people seem a bit angrier than usual on CA. Maybe it's SAD or something.
    I figured it was the norm, even though I'm a long time lurker LOL

    BLAHBLAHBLAH
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    Yeah, this is a pretty snarky bunch.
    And I thought it was especially ironic Noah Bradley should bring up the anger issue, given how he's been busting on insecure 17 year-olds!

    "Three's so little room for error."--Elwell
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhanu View Post
    GROUP HUGG!!! no groping please
    I can't guarantee I won't grope, but c'mere!



    BLAHBLAHBLAH
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  28. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhanu View Post
    GROUP HUGG!!! no groping please
    *Jumps in enthusiastically*


    One for you too, Bustthewave.




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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    We do transmutational yoga and eat alchemy sandwiches and ride flying unicorns of esoteric freudian solipsism while googling anthropology. Whee!
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  30. #50
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    I think this guy is pretty good with anatomy





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  32. #51
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    Robert Liberace is great!
    Sorry, Bhanu, you're right.
    Sorry, Noah.

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  34. #52
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  36. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mute View Post
    This place should be known for educating people, not attacking the uninformed.
    Exactly...and my point in the previous post. Part of educating is correction however. Unfortunately CA has become a vast, all-opinions-equal place full of mis-information and erroneous advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mute View Post
    If you feel you have better information than somebody else, by all means share it and encourage them to use it. If the information is truly more helpful, they will thank you. Needing to invalidate their contribution first is just to feed your ego and can be done without.
    Unfortunately this is often not the case...most of the time you have to spend a lot of energy carefully developing a reply with examples, analogy and reference to support your point (which is not a bad thing). The problem is people continue to argue with you and rarely are any thanks noted...even rarer is the situation that someone actually investigates the resource or approach suggested and provides any feedback. The end result is people with valid experience and resources to offer get fed up/discouraged with the lack of understanding and leave.

    OK...in the interest of providing better information...a few excellent anatomy oriented books are:
    Giovanni Civardi "Drawing Human Anatomy"
    Frederic Delavier "Strength Training Anatomy"
    John Cody "Visualizing Muscles"

    Ooops....didn't realize how far the thread had developed. Seems like Bhanu's group hug helped!

    Last edited by JeffX99; January 6th, 2011 at 04:52 PM. Reason: D'oh!
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  38. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Hinman View Post
    And I thought it was especially ironic Noah Bradley should bring up the anger issue, given how he's been busting on insecure 17 year-olds!
    ...They had it coming.

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  40. #55
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    The Cody book is useful if combined with books like the Richer text or "Albinus on Anatomy". The line illustrations of these books help clarify some flat, confusing passages in the photo illustrations in Cody's book.

    "Three's so little room for error."--Elwell
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  42. #56
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    Exactly...and my point in the previous post. Part of educating is correction however. Unfortunately CA has become a vast, all-opinions-equal place full of mis-information and erroneous advice.
    Quite true

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  43. #57
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    So...what did I miss?

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmenSpirits View Post
    So...what did I miss?
    O, for an LOL emoticon...

    "Three's so little room for error."--Elwell
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    You missed the hugging Omen...THE HUGGING!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffX99 View Post
    You missed the hugging Omen...THE HUGGING!!!
    Ah, sorry I missed that.

    I was busy being pretentious & ellitist.

    It's a full-time job, with very little reward.







    lol

    "Everything must serve the idea. The means used to convey the idea should be the simplest and clear. Just what is required. No extra images. To me this is a universal principle of art. Saying as much as possible with a minimum of means."
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