Portrait need help(what's wrong with it?)
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    Portrait need help(what's wrong with it?)

    Hey all,
    Back from oblivion & looking for some more help with another portrait I'm doing for a friend. Still fairly early on, & there is something off with the likeness of the little girl. I can't for the life of me put my finger on it. Must have redone her eyes & mouth like 5 times by now'
    Hoping maybe you all can see what I am obviously missing.

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    Hi, great portrait. Just a few points.

    -Her left eye is mis-aligned and her right eye is too big (slightly). Her right eyebrow curls off differently in the ref.
    -The point of her chin seems to be aligned to the right whereas it is pretty much central in the ref.
    -Her right cheek bulges out too much. If you sort the eye out then you might have to re-draw that side of her face to match up.

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    Much rounder eyes. But expand downwards when you make them rounder/larger.

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    DAMNED IT ALL!! Still the bloody eyes!
    thanks for the assist mates, I'll get to work on your suggestions & see what comes of it.
    ScottDotNet, thanks for pointing out the chin! totally didn't see that.
    wooblood, I saw that, but hesitated cus I was afraid of going overboard & making her look like an Anime character lol!

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    So did some work on this yesterday, and then had to negotiate a truce between Vista & my scanner who were not speaking to each other. Now that I finally have it scanned it looks like the eyes (which I completely erased & redrew) r more misaligned than before. a little frustrating, but I'll get back to it this aft.

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    Last edited by Chas; December 7th, 2010 at 07:50 AM.
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    I say keep the eye on our right which is looking pretty good now (even though her actual eyes are still rounder shaped) and redraw and move the other one down. I think you're trying to draw with your brain too much and complicating things, because her eyes are a very simple round arch shape.

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    make the girl's teeth & in-mouth-area darker

    -a

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    Portrait

    Hello

    Pardon the mark up of your work, but think easier to see.

    1) Check levelness of eyes and brow.
    2) round out right eye
    3) soften contouring, children should looked rounder and softer. Eyes slightly larger than adult in appearance. If you look hard enough you can see the shadowing, but in seeing it in a drawing will make the shadowing look unreal for a younger person.
    4) her face seems a bit lopsided so extend the shadowing under the chin to fill out the shape of her face

    Mr. D

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    K. So I redid her right eye, & then had to redo her left. Think I finally got a good likeness there. Still have to move the brows down a bit, but started to work on her mouth now. Is it me or is her nose crooked? God I really messed the construction up on this!
    Anyway, here it is so far.

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    Yep it is looking a lot better since u fixed the values a bit. About the little girl, the upper jaw is showing a bit too much, making her look like she's ready to feed on someone. If u compare to the actual pic you barely see the jaw, but more the teeth. Nice portrait over all though keep it up bro.

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    Good work.

    Likeness is lots better. How far are you going to push it? You now have the likeness so are you going to keep going until you have it perfect or is this enough. Have you tried Bargue technique?

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    Bargue techniqeue scares the bejeezus out of me! don't think I could ever make anything that is as perfect a replica as I've seen some folks on here produce using those casts & what not. Don't actually know the 'How' of Bargue though.

    As for this drawing I'm going to push it as far as I can. I think I've nailed the mom just need to push the darks some more & up the contrast to remove some of the greyness & try to get it to pop some.
    Thanks for the encouragement.

    (lol! 'nailed the mom' ! did I just type that! Freudian slip!?)

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    if you don't know bargue technique just youtube it, usually works. I know what you mean though, requires proper commitment (that I don't have).

    Anyways, really good, I like a lot of the work from your sketchbook. Do you ever try digital painting rather than traditional media?

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    Thanks for the kudos.
    I have never tried anything digital. (no tablet), & to be honest with you I rarely venture into the world of colour with traditonal media. colour scares me too.

    Last edited by Chas; December 10th, 2010 at 06:03 PM.
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    Its very good! Jus' a few nitpicks if you do want to push it farther. Comparing the straight lines on the photo and the picture it's definitely discernible that the mother's left eye + brow need to be moved down some. I don't know if you want to redo the whole beautiful eye, but it was something that I was able to pick out with my naked one. The likeness is still spectacular regardless Relook at the corner of the mother's mouth and I think you'll find that it turns up rather than downwards.

    The little girl's browbone is too far to the right of the arch of her bro. Her collarbone needs touching; the wrinkle you've defined on the bottom left of her face I believe is not really there---it's just photo graininess. Other than that it's adorable! If I was you I would push those rosey cheeks out a little more on her.
    By the way while I was redlining this my boyfriend walked in and said "holy shit". i said "it's not mine" he's like "I was gonna say..." lol good job

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    they both look prettier in the real pic

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    Stacybean:
    Thank you so much for the 'redline' it really helps! you're right though not gonna move that eye, but the corner of the mouth is doable. As for the little girl, I like the idea of pushing the cheeks. And you're right about that wrinkle & the brow bone. Thanks for taking the time to do all this.
    And i'm really flatterd by your story about your boyfriend It made me blush -seriously! thanks again.

    pctoolml : "they both look prettier in the real pic"
    What can I say? aint that always the way.

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    O.K. Soooooo It has been a LOOONG time since I posted anything here, and just about as long since I started working on this portrait. A few years, and a whole bunch of major life changes and I'm right back to it. I think this is pretty much done now, well except for the background, but I'll get to that in a bit.I've been working at this a fair bit recently and fear that I've lost perspective on it. That being the case I turn to you CA for your knowledgeable eyes. What do you see here? I'm pretty happy with the drawing itself, but not sure of the tonal quality. Should I push the darks more? Not enough highlights? Too grey/flat in areas?
    About the background, I know it is a bit of an amateurish question, but what should I do about that? leave it blank? I want to put in a tonal background, but not sure where I should go dark and where light, so any help with that would be greatly appreciated. here is the work so far.Name:  finished.jpg
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    Not experienced enough to make a critic, but can I ask you a question? How do you get the black colour for the mom┤s coat?

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    Conte 1710 3b 'charcoal' pencil. I put charcoal in italics, cus its not really charcoal but it acts pretty simmilar.

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    OK just noticed I never did take Staceybean's advice with the borwbone and collarbone of the little girl. Just made those changes - looks good. anything else? Looking at it on the computer screen, actually gives some needed distance. I think something needs to be done with mom's hair from her right ear down, and also the little girl's right hand seems to need more structure? substance? it just seems a little undefined.

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    Love it, you nailed the girls character and expression in the latest version.

    Please take the following as only a suggestion. The value differences between light and dark on the girl to my eye is a little more subtle than what you have. I would say the same for the mom, particularly in the cheek and forehead area. If you can make the value change feel really soft and kind of lost (which I mean almost not noticeable) I think you would get a more accurate effect for both.

    Fantastic job though, really nailed the likeness.

    Last edited by Kolbenito; November 7th, 2012 at 03:32 PM.
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    I think the values you have especially under the little girls eyebrows and on her forehead are too harsh, and ruin the illusion of soft round skin. Also goes for the dark creases on her arm and armpit. I think you got the likeness of the mom down very well.

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    Maybe a tip for next time,

    Whenever I'm busy with a portrait and find myself with the same problem as you when you started this thread, I just take the picture and a picture/scan of the drawing and put them in two different layers in photoshop. Then I make sure they are placed the same and then I keep changing the opacity of one of the layers. Many times if I do this often enough i can trace many problems and differences. It helped me a lot (:
    Good luck (:

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    What are you going to do for the background? Adding in the detailed bg from the photo would be a bad idea, but you should add in some tones (darks against light fg, light against dark fg etc.) to make the figures really pop.

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    "The value differences between light and dark on the girl to my eye is a little more subtle than what you have. I would say the same for the mom, particularly in the cheek and forehead area. If you can make the value change feel really soft and kind of lost (which I mean almost not noticeable) I think you would get a more accurate effect for both."
    Thanks a lot for that. I can see what you mean, I've been trying to soften the gradations, but I guess it still neds some work. I'll keep at it.
    "I think the values you have especially under the little girls eyebrows and on her forehead are too harsh, and ruin the illusion of soft round skin. Also goes for the dark creases on her arm and armpit. I think you got the likeness of the mom down very well."
    Those areas were the last thing I worked on and after i'd finished it felt like I'd gone too fat and tha's when I decided to post here and get some other perspectives. Thanks for the crit. going to work on it some today and see if I can soften it up some more.
    "What are you going to do for the background? Adding in the detailed bg from the photo would be a bad idea, but you should add in some tones (darks against light fg, light against dark fg etc.) to make the figures really pop."
    Yeah I'm deffinately not going to use what's in the BG of the photo. As for the tones I was thinking of Daker behind the little girl and lighter behind the mom, but not sure bout it. from your post I think you agree that that's how I should proceed?
    Girlwiththehat - Thanks for the tip,I'll try that in the future.

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    Did some more work on this. still have some more to go on the Background. Should I go darker on the right side? Sorry it is a little blurry had to use a camera with no tripod.Name:  BG2.jpg
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    Last edited by Chas; November 8th, 2012 at 06:56 PM. Reason: resize image
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    Don't go any darker, if it was up to me I'd have left it a bit lighter. You're going to have to readjust the deepest shadows on the subjects to make them darker than the background, now they are looking a bit washed out. I'm mainly talking about the shadows in the eyes and mouth, don't go too crazy.

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    The portrait came out nice, I think the woman looks spot-on and the girl really has a likeness to the photo.

    But am I the only one who wonders about the expression of the girl?
    The mom looks perfectly fine and has a relaxed and perfectly happy expression but the girl has a look of slight discomfort or scepticism in the photo.
    Maybe it was just a micro-expression and she was just about to say something when the photo was taken.
    As a test, try to imitate the expression of the girl with your own face and you'll notice it even stronger.
    In the drawing that expressiond changed to slight fear and tension. I don't know if that was your intention - you could've stylized that out and give her a more carefree expression.
    In the photo the expression comes from the furrowed eyebrows and the tensioned-smile. Only the muscles at the side of the mouth and at the neck are in action, making her upper lip thin and the corners of her mouth go just to the sides and not slightly upwards. People often do that when they are tense: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...8_fearmale.jpg.
    Laughing mouths usually use other muscles, also note how the folds around the mouth change: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...41_hapmale.jpg
    The muscles which get tense around the nose are also active, just a tiny little bit (those muscles are very prominent in growling dogs, Disney villains or people who are angry or disgusted).
    You don't really see these muscles in the photo but you see the consequences, the strong shadow around her nostrill, the way the folds lie and the tension in the muscles around the eyes.
    That one is very subtle though, the stuff that makes the expression are mostly the slightly furrowed eyebrows, then the tensioned smile.
    Other than that, it came out fine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiera View Post
    The portrait came out nice, I think the woman looks spot-on and the girl really has a likeness to the photo.

    But am I the only one who wonders about the expression of the girl?
    The mom looks perfectly fine and has a relaxed and perfectly happy expression but the girl has a look of slight discomfort or scepticism in the photo.
    Maybe it was just a micro-expression and she was just about to say something when the photo was taken.
    As a test, try to imitate the expression of the girl with your own face and you'll notice it even stronger.
    In the drawing that expressiond changed to slight fear and tension. I don't know if that was your intention - you could've stylized that out and give her a more carefree expression.
    In the photo the expression comes from the furrowed eyebrows and the tensioned-smile. Only the muscles at the side of the mouth and at the neck are in action, making her upper lip thin and the corners of her mouth go just to the sides and not slightly upwards. People often do that when they are tense: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...8_fearmale.jpg.
    Laughing mouths usually use other muscles, also note how the folds around the mouth change: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...41_hapmale.jpg
    The muscles which get tense around the nose are also active, just a tiny little bit (those muscles are very prominent in growling dogs, Disney villains or people who are angry or disgusted).
    You don't really see these muscles in the photo but you see the consequences, the strong shadow around her nostrill, the way the folds lie and the tension in the muscles around the eyes.
    That one is very subtle though, the stuff that makes the expression are mostly the slightly furrowed eyebrows, then the tensioned smile.
    Other than that, it came out fine
    Wow! your post reads like its right out of an episode of Lie To Me. And you are dead right! The photo was snapped right before the little girl was going out on stage at her dance recital - so yeah a little tense and afraid. Her mom liked how the expression in the photo caught that and wanted it in the drawing (if I could do it) guess I did! . Not quite done. gonna be a Christmas gift so I have some time and want it to be as good as I can make it.
    Another photo- not as blurry this time, but forgot to white balance the camera, so it loos sepia toned.Name:  WB.jpg
Views: 139
Size:  71.7 KB

    Last edited by Chas; November 10th, 2012 at 09:44 PM. Reason: added image
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