Seattle Cartoonist Molly Norris Flees Fatwa - Page 7
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Thread: Seattle Cartoonist Molly Norris Flees Fatwa

  1. #181
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    Again, is there a single muslim nation that champions liberty and individual rights?
    Maybe not our Western ideals of what constitutes liberty and individual rights (which imo, even that needs some tweaking). But yes, there are some more liberal Muslim countries. Some who don't care about drawing Muhammed even.

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  2. #182
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    Z, you can either fail on a large scale or a local.

    It should be clear to you by now that literally EVERYONE local disagrees with you on this.

    You come across as a bit of a loony.


    I get that it's easier to think that they are all wrong.
    Statistically though, is it likely that everyone else is wrong?

    Everyone else that you have encountered in the whole world? Seriously?

    At least consider that you might be a loony.

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  3. #183
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    I'm not sure I follow. Well first, let's avoid saying "everyone" or "all" as its always an unprovable or easily debunked claim.

    And local... meaning this discussion? Or this message board in general? In either case, what is your point? That by a rule count, it makes me wrong?I did not know being 'wrong' or 'right' in opinion, was something that could be measured.

    You come across as a bit of a loony.
    Alas, weren't all great thinkers in history thought as loonies. excuse me while I bask in this finest of compliments. (trying to sound poetic, or from an old period or something)

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    OK, you enjoy that then.

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  6. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    Alas, weren't all great thinkers in history thought as loonies.
    No, once they'd proved their theories they were generally accepted as science. See Archimedes and chums.

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  7. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    1. A toaster was not invented with the intent to offend the Amish. It is not exclusive to the Amish culture. A toaster, in its definition, stands alone.

    2. Having sex is not a concept invented by the Bible. The act of having sex, or not, is not exclusive to Christianity. Sex, in its definition, stands alone.
    Drawing pictures was not invented by Muslims. The act of drawing pictures is not exclusive to Islam. Art, in it's definition, stands alone

    See what I did there?

    The purpose of the Toaster, or the Act of having sex, is not an anti-thesis to their belief
    A toaster sure isn't an anti-thesis. It's not a thesis. It's an object. You don't know what anti-thesis means.

    3. Drawing Mohammed.... where did that name come from? It's from the Muslim faith. And why would one want to draw him? Because it says in their religion that it should not be done. So there, drawing Mohammed is directly affiliated with that Religion. It does Not stand on its own.
    I'm not going to go through your entire post, line by line because half of it makes no sense. It makes the Timecube guy sound like Shakespeare.

    You don't like drawing Mohammad. You disagree with it on an emotional level. It upsets you because it's your opinion that it causes some sort of harm to people. You feel it's not right. You're trying to reconcile these feelings with sensible arguments. It's not working. Just say you disagree with it because it feels wrong and we can be done with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    Remove all. Just say Muslims. That is who you will offend. Because it is not a rule invented by extremists, it is a rule by Muslims.
    It seems to offend you, you are not a Muslim. Therefore it won't offend only Muslims. Therefore it's not targeted at only Muslims but anyone who thinks I shouldn't draw Muhammad. Ex) You too.

    Basically you're saying I will offend all Muslims, but I'm not allowed to say "all Muslims."

    Take Kramer's case for example. When he said "n-------" and other insults, he was directing it at that One guy who pissed him off. But the fact that he used verbal speech that can offend an entire group, that got him in trouble.
    Saying the 'n' word isn't the same as drawing a picture of Muhammad. He got in trouble for using a pejorative. Not because he was said something someone else didn't like. All hate speech is offensive but not all offensive speech is hate speech.

    You cannot say "Hey guys I only meant to attack the few extreme ones, not all yall" when using something that can offend, not just the extremists, but even the liberal ones.
    Except his use of the 'n' word wasn't to attack extreme 'nig*ers.' I'm confused why you keep comparing terrorists and religious extremists to oppressed races. Again, drop the analogies. Be literal.


    You still haven't answered my question as to why drawing a picture of Muhammad is hate speech.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  8. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    I have a few friends who are Muslim.
    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    ??? Are you using what's going on in your backyard as proof to validate a broad claim?

    *(what's going on in your backyard is an expression meaning "well, my friend who is [---] doesn't care"). Pet peeve of mind when people do that.


    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  10. #188
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    "Maybe not our Western ideals of what constitutes liberty and individual rights (which imo, even that needs some tweaking)."

    There you go. The west is far from perfect, but muslim nations can't even reach our level of rights.

    "But yes, there are some more liberal Muslim countries. Some who don't care about drawing Muhammed even."

    which ones?

    ZWarrior, I like you, but watch out for topics like this, because I'm beginning to see troll like behavior. It's fine to feel differently, and argue, and being alone in the fight is also fine. One sign of trolling is posting responses so quickly. This thread here is racing at a page a minute, and since a lot of it is people responding to you, you have the biggest control in letting it sit for awhile. Another sign is repeatedly starting topics in the lounge meant to start up debates. And the third, and I say this because I honestly believe it, I don't think you're really giving the opposition a fair chance. Really read and digest what's being said before attacking. Maybe consider the parts you can agree with in each post before replying. Start with that, and then maybe we can relate to each other, and this debate won't be so aggressive and ultimately pointless. And, you don't have to respond to every little post...

    Last edited by TASmith; September 22nd, 2010 at 12:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    [IMG]http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/6527/original/john_stewart_facepalm.jpg?1248719001[IMG]
    dumb. re-read what was said. I did not use my background to prove a claim. I didnt say "well my friends who are muslim think this and that". Nice try but fail.

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    Buck, we're going in a loop again. I'm reading through your comment with "no Im going to disprove what you just said with this" and "that's not a true assumption, I will say this". But by the time I finished reading, I realized what is the point.

    I have no intention of conforming you to my thinking, you don't grasp it, especially considering how long we've discussed it, well that's that. the end.

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  13. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flake View Post
    No, once they'd proved their theories they were generally accepted as science. See Archimedes and chums.
    I was thinking more of philosophers/psychologists and not science. but in any case, it was a joke

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  14. #192
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    I haven't grasped your thinking because it's incoherent. One question.

    Why does drawing Muhammad equal hate speech.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    because hate speech is subjective to the people who it offends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    ??? Are you using what's going on in your backyard as proof to validate a broad claim?
    I am using my backyard to illustrate what happens when intelligent people of faith meet tards.

    They care not a jot, they have faith that god (Allah?) will judge you and feel no particular need to kill unbelievers, kinda like Christians who actually read the Book without scanning it for loopholes..

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    But ZWarrior, not all hate speech is subjective. When the Easter Islanders resorted to cannibalism, the worst utterance you could tell someone was, "the flesh of your mother sticks in my teeth." Now, is there anyone on Earth who wouldn't be offended by that?

    Once you start saying it's subjective, it opens up a nasty can of worms. A better response would have been, "because Mohammed is a revered figure, central to our religion, and our religion expressly bans his imagery." It can be hateful, sure. I'd agree that all the cartoons of Mohammed are hateful. But, there are degrees of hate, and there are instances where a certain level of hate is justifiable - when directed at concepts, not people. And, there are acceptable and unacceptable ways of acting on hate. And, even though I can agree the cartoons are hateful, it doesn't mean they don't contain an element of truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    because hate speech is subjective to the people who it offends.
    Show's over folks. Words are subjective to who's saying them. Burn your dictionaries, shut down Art. Anyone who gerrymanders the definition of hate speech to cover something they don't agree with is totally in the right. No more drawing because it might offend some people thousands of miles away. No more speaking your mind.

    Been nice talking with you guys, I'm gonna go burn my art supplies and use the constitution and thousands of years of philosophical progress as kindling. Later.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjpetch View Post
    Of course harassment can be harmful, but was draw Muhammad day really harassment? If the context were images displayed in a public space, like a school or workplace I think it would be inappropriate, but in the context of images posted on a forum or a facebook group I would argue that it is not, since anyone who finds it offensive can easily just not click on the offensive images.
    A pluralistic society is a good thing, a range of views should be allowed, and no-one should be discriminated against or harassed, but I maintain that a clash of ideas is a positive thing, when it is conducted in a rational way. Through rational verbal conflict people share ideas, the ideas are put to the test, and ideally both parties emerge improved, with better conceptions of reality.
    Kamber, like mimer said a quick google search shows countless Muslims denouncing extremism, I think you're just not looking dude.
    Well, gjpetch, show me an article in a mainstream news source where a moderate Moslem leader, Imam or organization spokesman has even said anything about the fatwa calling for the death of Molly Norris!

    Maybe Imam Rauf has said something by now?

    I'm sure members of the media probably still have him on speed-dial over that Ground-Zero-not-actually-a-minaret-substitute-community-center-thingy-that caused such a kerfuffle as of late!

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    Flake, you're being a twat by trolling.

    TAS and Buck, think about it. What makes Hate speech... hate speech

    dictionary definition:

    hate speech 
    –noun
    speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.
    In some countries, hate speech is defined by law. But in the US, it is not (and TAS I know you're not in the US, but are American, and I'll just stick to that country)

    so hate speech is not defined by law. Hate speech is a contemporary social ideal; one day gay means happy, the next, using it in a derogatory way makes you a homophobe. One day Negro means African American, the next, using it in a provocative context makes you a racist.

    drawing Muhammed is to defy a religious rule that Muslims believe in (notice the avoidance of saying "all"). Muslims are offended by the act, so acting on it in a provocative manner is hate speech.

    And Buck, since you already don't acknowledge that you are attacking Muslims by that act, then I guess this is all irrelevant to you. show is indeed over. No need to go on a loop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rainville View Post
    We're all going to have this debate again, aren't we
    Well I guess that proves my powers, time to pick some lotto numbers.

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  26. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    And Buck, since you already don't acknowledge that you are attacking Muslims by that act
    When you attack a person or a group you're attacking everything they're involved with? Guilty by association? Nice. If you condemn the Catholic priests who molested kids, you're attacking Catholicism. If you attack the Christian who shot abortion doctors, you're attacking Christianity. Attacking religions extremists that are Muslim is attacking Islam. Derp.

    You should be a lawyer. You just overturned five or so rulings in US History with one post.

    n.
    Bigoted speech attacking or disparaging a social or ethnic group or a member of such a group.
    hate speech 
    –noun
    speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.
    Here's where the magic happens.

    1) How is drawing Muhammad bigoted?
    2) How is drawing Muhammad an attack?

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    I'm calling you horribly naieve and misguided, that's not trolling if I have solid reasoning behind it.

    You are defending something on general principles, which is cool, I'd suggest you move to Saudi as an immigrant worker or something.

    It'll be a great laugh if you have Saudi family or rich Western ones. Otherwise, not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    When you attack a person or a group you're attacking everything they're involved with? Guilty by association? Nice.
    No, if you call extremists imbeciles, its evident you're calling them, and not the religion they're affiliated with, imbecile. But if you're defying a religious code, I mean, this explains itself.

    In your head, you've convinced yourself that it is only the extremists you're attacking by drawing Muhammed.

    well that's all there is to it. I will not restart this argument. the end.

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    Here's where the magic happens.

    1) How is drawing Muhammad bigoted?
    2) How is drawing Muhammad an attack?
    refer to page 6, post #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    No, if you call extremists imbeciles, its evident you're calling them, and not the religion they're affiliated with, imbecile. But if you're defying a religious code, I mean, this explains itself.

    In your head, you've convinced yourself that it is only the extremists you're attacking by drawing Muhammed.

    well that's all there is to it. I will not restart this argument. the end.
    Cool. So you can quote the post where I said that drawing Muhammad doesn't offend all Muslims then.

    Oh that's right you don't want me saying 'all.' That way when I say that the goal is to fuck with extremists, who happen to be Muslim you can run in here and go LOL U WANT 2 OFFEND MUSLIMS.

    They probably have brown skin too. So I guess I'm racist for drawing Muhammad since it will offend people with brown skin. Some of the people I offend might be left handed, another group I apparently hate. And women, can't forget women.

    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    refer to page 6, post #171
    It answers neither question.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    That way when I say that the goal is to fuck with extremists
    that's what you've always been saying. your goal isn't very clear because it is not only the extremists it attacks.

    I'm repeating myself, that's not the first time I've said this. Last time I told you that, you replied with:

    I can't really help that it offends all Muslims. Moderate Muslims don't get to tell me what to do either. I have a right to draw their god and they have a right to call me an ignorant American pig.
    You acknowledged that it might offend Muslims before, but now it seems like you are challenging if their being offended is even merited. kudos, its a philosophical step forward to challenge than just accept, but honestly I gave you an answer to that before, but you responded to that post with

    It answers neither question.
    I can't really help that then. I can't, or won't reiterate because we're drawing this to a conclusion now. let's stop, really.

    -----------------

    off topic:

    The reason I don't want to use "all" Muslims is because its a restricted statement. The minute one uses "all" in a claim, that entire claim can be debunked. (ex. all apples are red vs apples are red. first sentence gets debunked with "apples can be green" while this statement just adds to the "apples are red" claim, it does not debunk it.)

    So if I said "muslims can get offended" and Flake trolled in with "well mah fwend..." I can say, I did not say "all", I never made a restrictive claim...

    Last edited by nauvice; September 22nd, 2010 at 01:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    I can't really help that then. I can't, or won't reiterate because we're drawing this to a conclusion now. let's stop, really.
    You can't or wont answer the questions because you are unable to. I got it. Which is why I asked. The Socratic method. I was trying to get you to follow your own thoughts from premise to conclusion. Apparently you are unable to do so.

    Drawing Muhammad is not hate speech because it is not a bigoted statement or attack on those who follow Islam. It's not bigotry because it's not intolerant of Muslims nor does it depict animosity towards Muslims.

    What a person draws may or may not qualify as hate speech, it depends on what it is. However simply drawing Muhammad in itself does not constitute hate speech.

    The definition of hate speech does not include "anything that someone is offended by." or "can be anything, it depends on the person claiming something it hate speech." As a matter of fact it's very broad in its definition. So broad that it covers everything calling religion ignorant to absolute vitriol.

    All people who would get offended by the simple depiction of Muhammad are not extremists, I never said otherwise. What I did say was that a normal Muslim has no more influence than a religious extremist. Just because they're not batshit insane, doesn't mean that people get to be censored on their behalf.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    Dear zwarrior:




    Because honestly you're making my head hurt.

    Last edited by crossmirage; September 22nd, 2010 at 02:42 AM.
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    So who liked my story about drawing W's and O's as little butts pooping?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    about drawing Muhammed being a verbal attack, and about how damaging a verbal attack can be. By drawing him to provoke Muslims you are insulting their God and their Moral code. I am sure you wouldn't think someone saying "you're mother is a cunt" to be an innocent and light hearted critique, especially if it's unmerited.

    You can keep saying verbal attacks fall under the jurisdiction of freedom of speech, but stop acting surprised by saying no one should retort with death threats or physical attack when you should know by now, verbal attack is what can lead to a physical attack, people have committed suicide over being verbally abused, they've punched or killed others also. If your aim is to distinguish a fire, don't trow oil at it.
    So we'll rather not say anything out of fear of some immature reaction, totally unwarranted and unjustified. Someone calling my mother a cunt is probably another one of your bad analogies because

    1) it would not drive me to violence even though
    2) my mother actually exists.

    zwarrior, you can give us all the reasons in the world why we shouldn't draw Mohamed. And some of them may even sound convincing. But there are equally good reasons why we should in fact draw Mohamed. And there is no reason why we're not allowed.

    Brendan Noeth

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    can't read the last two pages...

    just wanted to add this link to your discussion about freedom of speech (whatever it is):

    http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0407a.asp

    The greatest pictorial value lies in all the things the camera cannot do.

    my animavatar
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