Entitlement?!? WTF?!?!?!
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    Angry Entitlement?!? WTF?!?!?!

    It seems like a lot of people who use Craigslist believe they're ENTITLED to have free services from freelance artists. Even when you explain to them that freelance artists need money to survive too, they still believe they're entitled. All I can say is that if these people really are entitled to free services from freelance artists, they should PROVE IT!!! Otherwise, I'm going to continue to conclude that these cheapskates are like spoiled brat kids who always want and get they want.

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    And see, that's why I call myself a lance artist. Just in case someone misconstrues "freelance" to mean "I work for free"...

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    lol, you funny

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    This rant was posted on Craigslist a few years ago, and made the rounds on various design and illustration forums, but this seems like a good time to repost. The original author is Dave D'Esposito, and he says pretty much everything there is to say.
    Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking "artists" for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.

    But what they're NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.

    To those who are "seeking artists", let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? ...none?

    More than likely, you don't know any. Otherwise, you wouldn't be posting on craigslist to find them.

    And this is not really a surprise.

    In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.

    So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?

    Would you offer a neurosurgeon the "opportunity" to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him "a few bucks" for "materials". What a deal!)

    Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?

    If you answered "yes" to ANY of the above, you're obviously insane. If you answered "no", then kudos to you for living in the real world.

    But then tell me... why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?

    Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.

    A few things you need to know;

    1. It is not a "great opportunity" for an artist to have his work seen on your car/'zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a "great opportunity" for YOU to have their work there.

    2. It is not clever to seek a "student" or "beginner" in an attempt to get work for free. It's ignorant and insulting. They may be "students", but that does not mean they don't deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a "student" once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

    3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it's one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their "portfolio". They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It's not compensation. It's their right, and it's a given.

    4. Stop thinking that you're giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.

    5. Students DO need "experience". But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the "experience" they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother's house when they were seventeen?

    If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

    6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to "submit work for consideration". They may even be posing as some sort of "contest". These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the "contest", or be "chosen" for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or "spec", work. It's risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.

    So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are "spec" gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.

    And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free... please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you're accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.



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    One of the best warnings my mentor gave me was "Now that you have graduated, everyone will want your work, none of them will want to pay for it but they will want it. They will want it for donations, auctions, they will want your time and all of it they will want for free. Your job is to figure out which ones are the best for your career."

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    But. . .

    Isn't Craigslist a forum where psychos find whores to murder?

    I'm shocked! Just shocked, that the users of Craigslist would post morally questionable "deals" for artists. . .

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    I think we need to understand that Craigslist is above reproach! Morally questionable situations are rarely if ever posted there.
    And people looking for free things? Why everyone who posts there is always on the up and up!
    *looks at a 4wheeler purchased from Craigslist* Yep, on the up and up.

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    That is a sad thing.

    But the most sad part is... some idiots do the jobs for free, that is why they all keep trying.

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    tbh I'm not sure what the problem here is. Someone tells you to draw for free, you laugh at them/tell them to fuck off, end of story. :/

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    or you simply don't reply.

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    Really? I just refer them to the local chapter of the Young Republicans. That usually gets them to shut up.

    Amateur Artist. Professional Asshole.

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    Why not say 'No' ?

    Someone will eventually say 'Yes'.

    Even though you have a family to feed and you are "entitled" as a freelance illustrator to get paid; why are you mad at people trying to get something for free?

    To build up a portfolio I did a couple of role-playing book illustrations for free. Heck, I would entitle my current job position in the games industry to years of free labour.

    Please, explain where my logic fail me, because I can't understand why you just can't say 'no' and move on. This works because people are willing to do this for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falchion View Post
    And see, that's why I call myself a lance artist.
    For some reason that name's just awesome. I picture a big line of artists dressed like landsknechts with oversize pencils and such instead of pikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rainville View Post
    I picture a big line of artists dressed like landsknechts with oversize pencils and such instead of pikes.
    This is actually appropriate. The term "free-lance" was coined by Sir Walter Scott in Ivanhoe to describe mercenaries who fought for pay, not feudal obligation.
    Respect comes from getting people to think this guy

    instead of some somebody in pizza-stained pajamas.


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    so if I need a model, I probably shouldn't ask a friend to do so for free, or I should feel guilty if given my budget, I can only hire a model who'll offer their services for cheap. I'm sure I'm not the only artist in this hypocritical situation... ???

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    That's it, next time I need to negotiate a contract, I'm showing up at the client's office in full armor with a 20-foot lance...

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    so if I need a model, I probably shouldn't ask a friend to do so for free, or I should feel guilty if given my budget, I can only hire a model who'll offer their services for cheap. I'm sure I'm not the only artist in this hypocritical situation... ???

    No, what you shouldn't do is call up Ford/Elite/Wilhelmina and tell them to send over some girls to model for you and oh BTW there's no money up front but it's a great opportunity and they can use the pictures in their portfolio and it will be great exposure.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rainville View Post
    For some reason that name's just awesome. I picture a big line of artists dressed like landsknechts with oversize pencils and such instead of pikes.
    I'm definitely going to have to sketch that one out...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    This is actually appropriate. The term "free-lance" was coined by Sir Walter Scott in Ivanhoe to describe mercenaries who fought for pay, not feudal obligation.
    Well now I know!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post

    No, what you shouldn't do is call up Ford/Elite/Wilhelmina and tell them to send over some girls to model for you and oh BTW there's no money up front but it's a great opportunity and they can use the pictures in their portfolio and it will be great exposure.
    but a ford/elite/wilhelmia model would be equivalent to a professional artist associated with a big name studio. Its obvious they would not the ones sought after for a free or discount job. Just thought it weird how its recommended frequently in this forum to get a friend to model for you or find a cheap model due to artist budget, but if a commissioner asks for free or discount works, well then they're assholes and if the artist does it, he's an idiot.

    I personally think the subject of the work and the person asking for it, is worth looking into before saying no. Similar to an internship, it could benefit you in different ways than monetary compensation. The guy you quoted sees it way too black/white, since many people asking for free or discount work may be just starting out themselves and may not be able to afford an average pricing (such as a young writer trying to find an artist to illustrate his book, if the book is promising, I would not mind helping for free.)

    Last edited by nauvice; August 30th, 2010 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    but a ford/elite/wilhelmia model would be equivalent to a professional artist associated with a big name studio. Its obvious they would not the ones sought after for a free or discount job. Just thought it weird how its recommended frequently in this forum to get a friend to model for you or find a cheap model due to artist budget, but if a commissioner asks for free or discount works, well then they're assholes and if the artist does it, he's an idiot.
    Does it really take years of practice, study, and experience to sit in a chair for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    Just thought it weird how its recommended frequently in this forum to get a friend to model for you or find a cheap model due to artist budget, but if a commissioner asks for free or discount works, well then they're assholes and if the artist does it, he's an idiot.
    See emphasized word. Friends help each other out all the time. Random Craigslist posters are not your friends, even if they try to convince you that they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    I personally think the subject of the work and the person asking for it, is worth looking into before saying no. Similar to an internship, it could benefit you in different ways than monetary compensation. The guy you quoted sees it way too black/white, since many people asking for free or discount work may be just starting out themselves and may not be able to afford an average pricing (such as a young writer trying to find an artist to illustrate his book, if the book is promising, I would not mind helping for free.)
    The issue people have is more one of attitude than content. It's perfectly fine to ask someone for a favor, what isn't fine is to behave like you're the one doing them a favor by asking.

    Last edited by Elwell; August 30th, 2010 at 11:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Listen View Post
    Does it really take years of practice, study, and experience to sit in a chair for you?
    yes. you're underrating a model's work. When you draw a model who's been doing it for years, versus drawing a friend of yours, you will see a vast difference in professionalism. The two main ones being the model Can stay still for long periods of time, and after taking a break, will be able to find his or her position almost exactly as they were before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    See emphasized word. Friends help each other out all the time. Random Craigslist posters are not your friends.
    That's besides the point. I could have easily said a random person off the street. And even so, me being someone's friend or close relative is no justification to having to give a helping hand, since that will still make it hard for other artists. For example, from that clientsfromhell website, there was a commissioner asking a graphic designer a discount because he claimed he had a nephew that knew photoshop and could do it for free. So me using a friend to model to avoid paying a professional an average price, seems like I would be on the same boat as that guy.

    Anyway, it's just something that struck me. I didn't mean to start a debate over this. I'd still would like to hear a model's opinion, but we're not at conceptmodel.org, so slim chance that'll happen. Never mind, I will drop it.

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    zwarrior - also remember though, that a lot of the people looking for free art have an awful attitude towards artists. Not all of them admittedly, but there are loads of selfish people who seem to believe that artists are there just to provide a service for them, with nothing in return. Which is what I think most people have a problem with.

    Edit - oops, beaten by Elwell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    The issue people have is more one of attitude than content. It's perfectly fine to ask someone for a favor, what isn't fine is to behave like you're the one doing them a favor by asking.
    okie dokie

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    Edit: I see you're looking to drop that discussion, so I'll go ahead and edit this out.

    I'll say very simply: Focus on the work, not on the title. Don't pay someone for being an "artist", don't pay someone for being a "model". Pay someone for what they're doing. Pay them what it's worth. If what you want someone to do requires years of practice or experience, you should respect that by being willing to compensate them for their service.

    Last edited by Two Listen; August 30th, 2010 at 12:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    (such as a young writer trying to find an artist to illustrate his book, if the book is promising, I would not mind helping for free.)
    Actually, just FYI, that might not be a good idea... According to most editors and art directors I've talked to in children's book publishing, most editors don't like it when writers choose an illustrator in advance and submit the pictures with their manuscript; it makes the editors feel like if they choose to publish the book, they'll be stuck with the writer's choice of illustrator, and they prefer to have the option to pick their own illustrator - so they may reject the manuscript because of this.

    (Illustrator-authors are treated differently - however, even then illustrators typically limit their submissions to a sample or two, with sketches for the rest of the book, so there's room for editing.)

    There may be exceptions, but this seems to be the deal according to the editors I've met...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Respect comes from getting people to think this guy
    The more you know.jpg

    I wonder if the people who tried to hire mercenaries went "Hey, we won't pay you but if you come back out alive after the war, you'll surely have all the recognition in the world!"...

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