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  1. #61
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    Definition of art

    the products of human creativity; works of art collectively; "an art exhibition"; "a fine collection of art"
    the creation of beautiful or significant things; "art does not need to be innovative to be good"; "I was never any good at art"; "he said that architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully"
    a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art"
    artwork: photographs or other visual representations in a printed publication; "the publisher was responsible for all the artwork in the book"

    So really everything is art sillies

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    "Life itself is your teacher, and you are in a state of constant learning." -Bruce Lee

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Begin by reading Schopenhauer's The World as Will and Representation, drawing from life, picking up a book on anatomy, and getting off the net.
    Well... that was cryptic.

    My real objection to those sentences has nothing to do with any of that (well maybe Schopenhauer, in an abstract sense). My objection is mostly about the fact that your saying people should be banned from experience until they grow up [paradoxical]. You then said if something makes you think, then you haven't done much thinking [practically paradoxical]. You also say (with authority) that Banksy is not a deep thinker, and anyone who thinks he is, is immature. Do you think it is impossible that maybe he makes his art for the effect of it, and not for the individual value of a self-contained concept?

    But thanks for the book tip . I've always had an interest in the relationship between reality and perception, and this book looks like it's right up my ally.

    Last edited by karma militia; September 26th, 2010 at 11:18 PM.
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  3. #63
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    The "banned" thing was a half-joke in response to dirtsyndicate's similar, but opposite assertion (which you must have read as I quoted it in the comment you responded to.)

    The reason I mention Schopenhauer is because he is an excellent antidote to people who think stuff like Banksy's work is "deep." I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but to really discuss what is objectively deep in the life of the mind and what is superficial bumper-sticker level commentary. In my intellectual experience, it seems to me what most constitutes deep is German Idealism, which is one of the cornerstones of modern thought and leads directly or indirectly to the achievements of Maxwell/Einstein, Howard Pyle/The Wyeths/Great Illustration/Frazetta, Modern Art, the computer revolution/symbolic logic, Jungian archetypes/myth-scholarship, neuroscience, linguistics, psychology, aesthetics, transcendentalism and nearly everything else that is worthwhile about modernity. (Incidentally, you may have to brush up on Kant before getting into Schopenhauer.)

    At least Icarus tried!


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  4. #64
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    Well ok, I guess I interpreted those sentences out of context, but i think you're doing the same with Banksy's work.

    Also, i think there are different ways to interpret the word "deep" (it's relative, like everything else that can be defined). Banksy's work is deep when compared to the vast majority of commercial and graffiti art. The idea's presented are supposed to be obvious truths which most of us choose to ignore. The concepts and the method of delivery are designed to confront and engage us (the sheeple) with these truths for the totally utilitarian purpose of dissolving self-imposed ignorance.

    While it may not be "deep" when compared to the nature of reality or the mysteries of consciousness, I think it is still quite deep when viewed within the context of social responsibility.

    Btw, do you know any good philosophy websites?

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  5. #65
    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Inventing an enzymatic recycling plant that dissolves plastic without creating poison gas, creating and manufacturing next generation biofuels that don't have carbon biproducts, discovering a new chemical process that turns desert land into fertile soil, finding a way to regenerate damaged tissues and organs, inventing lossless wiring, solar cells or batteries that hold energy with near 100% efficiency... these activities are my idea of social responsibility.

    Complaining by graffiti jokes is just talk.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  7. #66
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    I think someone needs to be talking too. To remind people that these things are important.

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    I think its the pretentious crowd which goes for all the deep stuff.
    Me likes Banksy, because he takes art to the people in a good way. He has balls to do stuff, people wouldnt even dream of doing.
    He gives a little food for thought, buts its more like dinner and a show. YOu chuckle abit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhanu View Post
    I think its the pretentious crowd which goes for all the deep stuff.
    Pretentious how? Not everyone likes being a philistine.

    you can like both deep and fun stuff imo, it seems like some people shun away from "deep" stuff because they don't want to take the time to understand it.

    Last edited by nauvice; September 27th, 2010 at 11:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwarrior View Post
    you can like both deep and fun stuff
    Schopenhauer disagrees

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidmonk3j View Post
    Schopenhauer disagrees
    who dat? I haven't read anything on him ;( (yet, wiki'ing rite now)

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  12. #71
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    When its really deep, you wont even get that its deep.

    Thats the difference between real psychology and amateur evening class psychology.
    Its like how an amateur psychologist friend of your sees a symptom(maybe your art) and declares it the disease. A psychollogist wont do that.
    The same thing whit the obvious deep stuff, when you say to yourself while looking at a piece, smart piece the artist must be deep, thats just amateur psycholgy at work. Somehere pretentious attitude plays the role.

    When one sees the a really strong piece, one is affected by and one doesnt know why, then you might be dealing with the deep end of stuff.

    Its how the NewYork critics labeled Andrew Wyeth labeling him a regionlist who is stuck in the past. They couldnt see beyond the painted fences, or the dry crackling skins of old farmers. They who think Jeff Koons is deep.
    I still havent completely understood Andrew Wyeth's work but every time I look at it, I learn a little about the human psyche.

    you can like both deep and fun stuff imo, it seems like some people shun away from "deep" stuff because they don't want to take the time to understand it.
    Yes one can enjoy both, I dont really dont differentiate between stuff on levels on deepness. I like watching movies like "stalker" to south park.
    But my point was that alot of people who talk about deep art might just doing it impress upon others that they are erudite elite smart or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Complaining by graffiti jokes is just talk.
    ...and so is philosophy.

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Bhanu, all the Brandywine artists are Romantics. Read The Two Worlds of Andrew Wyeth for a little more insight. Its an inexpensive and great book. Also, Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Representation: Aesthetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by karma militia View Post
    ...and so is philosophy.
    Congratulations, you now know how to create a flippancy in order to seem witty. Those who can't tell the difference between flip remarks and substantive remarks will think you are deep. However, that remark is evidence that you are merely pretending to have understanding of philosophy, therefore you are pretentious. And pretentiousness, as everybody knows, is lame and boring.

    The great sweep of Idealism is what turned our understanding of the human mind from mystical speculation into a science, taught humanity how to think clearly and with humility, and promoted the idea that there were forces in the universe that could not be correctly observed nor described by human senses or intuition, but which, yet, could be approached through science and logic... and paved the way for many disciplines and forms of inquiry that would have been unthinkable prior. This science of thought has turned out to be actionable as engineering across our entire civilization's endeavors and the world has been massively changed as a result.

    It is hardly just talk to be dismissed as comparable to graffiti cartoons which pander to disaffected 20 year old facile anti-capitalists sitting around playing world of warcraft all day long instead of learning a trade.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  16. #74
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    It was not a intended as a flippant remark, nor was it intended to downplay the importance of philosophy. I hoped to point out the idiocy of disregarding the value of something because it was "just talk". The line between "talk", thought and action is blurrier than you seem to think.

    As for calling me pretentious; surely you can see the inherent hypocrisy of such a claim. (...and no, I've never played WoW )

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    I have not pretended anything, so don't even try to insinuate that I am pretentious.

    Bansky's work is fun, but there's nothing about it that will lead to action. Nobody is going to become a scientist that changes the world based on his graffiti. Nobody is going to learn anything about the world from looking at his work. Nobody is even going to sweep the streets where his work is located based upon what they "learn" from his images.

    There is nothing idiotic about making a distinction between flip jokes for disaffected kids and serious scholarship that results in a sea change in the existence of humanity.

    EDIT: Sorry for the ninja edit. And I wasn't implying that you play WoW. I was just talking about the "type" that gets into anti-capitalist graffiti type Daily Kos dissaffection, etc. (Yes, this is a gross generalization, but the amount of times it is true makes the generalization a sensible one.)

    EDIT 2: If you say I am hypocritical for calling someone else pretentious, you are implying that I am pretentious. Since I am not pretending to know or understand anything which I have not researched or read, I reject the assertion that hypocrisy is afoot. That is all.

    Last edited by kev ferrara; September 28th, 2010 at 11:47 AM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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  18. #76
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    I'm trying!

    Edit-
    Hey no fair! no ninja editing!
    The source of our disagreement seems to be the fact that you're talking in extremes. I'm not.


    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    I have not pretended anything, so don't even try to insinuate that I am pretentious.
    I did no such thing! . If you've managed to psychoanalyze me and divine the method and motive for my thoughts with such certainty in such a short time, consider me impressed. If not, calling me pretentious is pretentious behavior. Just sayin'.

    Last edited by karma militia; September 28th, 2010 at 11:36 AM.
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    Kev, I will do.
    But are you saying that Andy wyeth wasnt also attempting abstract realism? Or were you just pointing to the two sides of the same coin?

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Abstract just means general, and general is just another word for "the idea" or "the essence" as opposed to the the substance. All great art works as a general idea. The power of brandywine art (and brandywine art is just the last evolution of Romanticism) stems from this principle.

    Abstract came to be used incorrectly with all the pseudo-intellectualism surrounding the arts in the 20th century... as just meaning "non-descriptive" or "I can't tell if that's supposed to be anything." That usage is a corruption of the word.

    At least Icarus tried!


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  22. #79
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    Kev, you're making great points, bit I would like to point out that a message doesn't have to be deep or radical to be important. "War is bad" and "pollution is bad" are two good messages that can be expressed, for example, through art, graffiti or otherwise. If only the things that really, truly, lead to world-changing results were worth doing, we wouldn't be sitting here, discussing how to best design that warlock's magic staff...

    What I like about Banksy is his sense of design. I can't say I'm moved into action by his messages. But I think they're worthwile anyway.

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    I think it's just a sign of the times. One guy expressing how he sees his corner of the world. Of course he chose to express that in graffiti for different reasons.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Serps, again, this is exactly what I mean... war is not always "bad" because sometimes it is necessary (WWII). Making everybody into pacifists is very dangerous because the world is dangerous and, given that fact, even the most peacable nation needs warriors. Dangerous people aren't going to be putting down their weapons because Banksy did a cartoon on the wall. Iran isn't going to stop trying to acquire nukes just because somebody plays "give peace a chance" on the radio.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    ah, screw this...gl & hf



    Last edited by squidmonk3j; September 28th, 2010 at 12:53 PM.
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    Artists are so funny.

    Thinking they know stuff.

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    kev ferrara is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Knowledge is so funny.

    Stuffing the thinking artist.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
    Serps, again, this is exactly what I mean... war is not always "bad" because sometimes it is necessary (WWII). Making everybody into pacifists is very dangerous because the world is dangerous and, given that fact, even the most peacable nation needs warriors. Dangerous people aren't going to be putting down their weapons because Banksy did a cartoon on the wall. Iran isn't going to stop trying to acquire nukes just because somebody plays "give peace a chance" on the radio.
    WWII wasn't necessary in anyway. It became necessary because a crazy son of a bitch started the whole thing. But you can't say the war wasn't bad. Because it was. It was horrible and everything would have been better without it.

    I don't think anybody who's saying "war is bad" means "if someone walks up to you with a gun just smile and say 'halleluja brother!'" But it's kinda obvious that some cultures are more prone to violence than others. And if as many people as possible could adopt the idea that war is bad and of turning the other cheek a lot of wars would probably be prevented from starting in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    And if as many people as possible could adopt the idea that war is bad and of turning the other cheek a lot of wars would probably be prevented from starting in the first place.
    Ah, and therein lies the rub. Those who are most likely to listen are the least likely to start wars... to the violent, this meekness is weakness, and weakness itself is provocative... and therefore the very idea of turn the cheek weakens the tenuous hold of civilization on earth by increasing the vulnerability and likelihood of a concerted attack on civilization. Nazis don't hold peace marches.

    At least Icarus tried!


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    Pfft, bloody idealists. ()

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    pffft, bloody idealists... from imagination to rage in two decades.

    Last edited by kev ferrara; September 28th, 2010 at 02:07 PM.
    At least Icarus tried!


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    what is good about wars?

    Aside the obvious of course.

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    From idealism to rage to acceptance...



    But i was trying to make a quick quip regarding the idealism of lennon in the context of your philosophical understanding of idealism (subjective determination of reality?). Listen to it again with that in mind, and it takes on a different meaning.

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