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  1. #1
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    Exclamation How to Hire an Artist: a MUST READ for students, beginners, and amateurs

    Last edited by Elwell; August 10th, 2010 at 02:05 PM.
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  4. #2
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    What do I think? I think there's a lot of folks trying to fan the flames on something stupid and not even remotely worth reading. There's a lot of bad information out there, this is one more incarnation of it.

    Perhaps its just how I'm reading this, but I don't see this as horribly controversial when most people seem to be agreeing that he's a twit.

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    Granted, it's nothing new. Guys like this are a dime a dozen, seeking the cheapest artist, but, based on his statement that he's had many "out on me halfway through", he got what he paid for in those cases. Newer freelancers with less experience and less professionalism are more of a risk.

    What makes Mr. Gregorio different is that he posted his guide under his real name then linked to it on websites filled with artists and fellow game developers. That makes him a true twit among twits. Thus, while it's not shocking that he's one of many people with this attitude, it does make him a very public and useful example of what to avoid and why creative types should do their research and not sell themselves short.

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  7. #4
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    Damn this spread fast.

    Er...all I think is that I am not going to work for someone that thinks like that and neither should anyone else that has respect for their own talents.

    Regardless, people like him will continue to get artists who are more than willing to work for chump change either because they don't know better or because they just don't care.

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    A moron is being a moron, what else is new?

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    I don't see what the big deal is. It's just business. We arn't talking about a massive game company here. We're talking about a guy who makes flash games. He's amateur and looks for amateur artists. If your an amateur artist you really don't have much room when it comes to asking price and stuff like that because well...your amateur. It seems pretty logical to me. It's a business, and a good business tries to maximize profit. That's all this guy is doing. Everyone is throwing emotion into this when it's not necessary. The only reason for emotion would be if artists were getting screwed. Which they are not. The amateur artist gets to get a little cash for his or her work and the pro artists have the same mindset as the developers. Maximizing profit. So really, it balances out.

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    There have always been people like this and there always will be. Why? Because artists who aren't good enough to work professionally will always give away their services. Technology helps this and in the old days bad artists were confined to their hometowns because they lack of success kept them there. Now anybody with internet service can throw up a free website and offer their services to everyone else out there doing the same thing in other professions. So crappy artists, designers, writers,film makers and crappy game developers are world wide now. Good people have to wade through a ton of crap to find other good people. Tech removes the filters put in place from market forces. I still think the cream risies to the top most of the time but not always, and talented people have to work twice as hard nowadays to get noticed.

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  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    There have always been people like this and there always will be. Why? Because artists who aren't good enough to work professionally will always give away their services. Technology helps this and in the old days bad artists were confined to their hometowns because they lack of success kept them there. Now anybody with internet service can throw up a free website and offer their services to everyone else out there doing the same thing in other professions. So crappy artists, designers, writers,film makers and crappy game developers are world wide now. Good people have to wade through a ton of crap to find other good people. Tech removes the filters put in place from market forces. I still think the cream risies to the top most of the time but not always, and talented people have to work twice as hard nowadays to get noticed.
    This. You hit right on target. So really it's just supply and demand. Likewise I feel the cream will rise to the top if that cream works to get noticed. And the C.R.E.A.M. always gets paid no matter how bad the developer wants to profit!
    Like a wise man once said-"CREAM get the money! CREAM get the money! Dolla dolla bill yalllllll" lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmalidore View Post
    What do I think? I think there's a lot of folks trying to fan the flames on something stupid and not even remotely worth reading.
    Heh, I disagree; I think that was very worth reading, even more so for artists than for those he was actually addressing. It's easy to forget that there are people who will actively try to take advantage of you and rip you off, and then excuse it with "just business."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl View Post
    Heh, I disagree; I think that was very worth reading, even more so for artists than for those he was actually addressing. It's easy to forget that there are people who will actively try to take advantage of you and rip you off, and then excuse it with "just business."
    That's fair. I just haven't seen one person come away sounding like they learned anything new. I am seeing a LOT of already knowledgeable people share this with each other though. Perhaps I'm just not looking in the right places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmalidore View Post
    That's fair. I just haven't seen one person come away sounding like they learned anything new. I am seeing a LOT of already knowledgeable people share this with each other though. Perhaps I'm just not looking in the right places.
    Well, this HAS cropped up on DeviantArt, and there's loads of inexperienced kids there who could definitely learn something from it... Or hopefully they will, anyway.

    Though on CA, most of us have probably already been through the getting-ripped-off phase of our career and know to avoid "clients" like that (and there's a million clients like that...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    Well, this HAS cropped up on DeviantArt, and there's loads of inexperienced kids there who could definitely learn something from it... Or hopefully they will, anyway.

    Though on CA, most of us have probably already been through the getting-ripped-off phase of our career and know to avoid "clients" like that (and there's a million clients like that...)
    Which is sort of my point - which I never stated well. It SHOULD be on DA, even on Facebook where pros have a good connection to their young fanbase. Here on CA, and peers passing it to their select friends on twitter just to moan about it? Not as much good. All we're going to do is bitch here because we've all read about this through the years or heard the pros rant about it already. But again, I didn't state this well, which is my own fault

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmalidore View Post
    Which is sort of my point - which I never stated well. It SHOULD be on DA, even on Facebook where pros have a good connection to their young fanbase. Here on CA, and peers passing it to their select friends on twitter just to moan about it? Not as much good. All we're going to do is bitch here because we've all read about this through the years or heard the pros rant about it already. But again, I didn't state this well, which is my own fault
    Not true!! I know next to nothing about the business aspect of client, developer relationship. I suspected this to be the case but I didn't know because like a lot of people here I'm still a young artist and have yet to actually enter the field of business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UmpaArt View Post
    Not true!! I know next to nothing about the business aspect of client, developer relationship. I suspected this to be the case but I didn't know because like a lot of people here I'm still a young artist and have yet to actually enter the field of business.
    I stand corrected then. I apologize if my statement felt poorly directed to anybody, it was not intended.

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  20. #15
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    And personally I'm not a huge fan of DA. I learn a lot more here so I wouldn't have read it there. I'm sure there are plenty of threads on the business aspect here. There's a wealth of knowledge here and this adds to it imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmalidore View Post
    Which is sort of my point - which I never stated well. It SHOULD be on DA, even on Facebook where pros have a good connection to their young fanbase.
    I facebooked it, with a big "Students/amateurs/wannabe-wouldbe pros: READ THIS" headline. I suggest others do similar.


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    (quick edit: Also Umpa, if you haven't gone down to the Employment Discussion area in the jobs section here on CA, I highly recommend it. There is a wealth of information in there that may help you if you haven't gone through it yet )

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    I facebooked it, with a big "Students/amateurs/wannabe-wouldbe pros: READ THIS" headline. I suggest others do similar.
    I saw, I was very happy to see that - your words have a lot of weight and people listen to you for a reason, you're not there to ask others what they think - but to educate them.

    Last edited by cmalidore; August 9th, 2010 at 06:43 PM.
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  24. #18
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    I agree with others that this is worth a mention here, on dA, on Facebook and any other place where inexperienced or less informed artists may see it. To some of us it may be nothing new or surprising, thus no big deal. But it's a good example of a bad client and what to look out for.

    I don't think mentioning it here or on Twitter is "just moan[ing]" about it. Here, for example, a lot of respectable people are members, folk who hopefully others are more willing to listen to and take seriously versus some anonymous commenters.

    As for it being just business, I suppose, but his tone doesn't sit well with me. A person can get the best price for the job without being a jerk. Life's too short to willingly work with people like him.

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    I've edited the thread title to hopefully bring this to the attention of those who most need to read it.

    Also, here is a rational, non-hysterical, but absolute and total takedown of the original article, by someone who actually does know how to hire an artist:
    http://www.thejonjones.com/2010/08/0...ire-an-artist/


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  27. #20
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    Breaking News:
    Christopher Gregorio, author of the original article, is SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. Which explains pretty much everything.
    http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Christopher_Gregorio


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    Honesty about business is business is one thing but, when you post under your real name in the industry and then attack others with links to their sites and work, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Who wants to work with someone who does that instead of addressing the issues with the artists.
    In terms of amateurs lacking a decent work ethic have having commitment issues to a project, that is not due to them being amateurs, that is due to them not having a work ethic and understanding what it is to be part of a team on a project.
    The issue of money is always a tough situation, is a professional worth their money and what constitutes a professional? Someone who earns a living as an artist? Then if even if you are a newer artist but making a living as one, then you are technically a professional. Still in school? I'll concede that you might still be an amateur
    Of course you could go by what is a tax write off and what is not! I can take classes in design and use them as a tax write off, my new laptop and monitor = tax write off, software? tax write off!!!
    So maybe the financial benefits ought to constitute professionalism? NAAAAHHH!!!!! I know "professional" artists who are egotistical nightmares to work with.
    I say if your portfolio is strong, people pay you for your work and you have a solid work ethic and bust your ass to hit deadlines and keep a project rolling forwards, then by Crom you are a professional!

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    Teenagers and their internets.

    When I was a teenager we had to set things on fire and get kicked out of Wal-Mart to show off our stupidity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Breaking News:
    Christopher Gregorio, author of the original article, is SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. Which explains pretty much everything.
    http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Christopher_Gregorio
    Oh FFS, you mean I've spent my time writing facetious comments to some jerk of a kid when I could have been, oh I don't know, doing anything else!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Also, here is a rational, non-hysterical, but absolute and total takedown of the original article, by someone who actually does know how to hire an artist:
    http://www.thejonjones.com/2010/08/0...ire-an-artist/
    That's a well written article. Glad you pointed it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Breaking News:
    Christopher Gregorio, author of the original article, is SIXTEEN YEARS OLD. Which explains pretty much everything.
    His comments on Reddit say he's 16 but his Digg profile claims he's 23. I'm more prone to believe he's 16 though and lied on his Digg profile for whatever reason. If anyone knows someone involved with Triangle Game Conference -- he had a panel called Monetizing Your Flash Game, Chris Gregorio XDragonX10 Productions -- maybe they could give some insight into this fellow.

    His post has hit over 1k comments. Popcorn gif time. Though a lot are of the "u suk" variety, that Yem and Kathryn keep coming back to defend him. Wonder if they feel that strongly about it, just like an internet fight/troll, or are friends.

    Last edited by paramnesia; August 10th, 2010 at 09:39 PM. Reason: Added TGC info, fixed link & found a typo (ARGH!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Also, here is a rational, non-hysterical, but absolute and total takedown of the original article, by someone who actually does know how to hire an artist:
    http://www.thejonjones.com/2010/08/0...ire-an-artist/
    Brilliant.

    The original article in the opening post was so bad I thought it was written simply to troll. Somewhere I'm picturing a 16 year old smiling as he certainly did achieve his objective of rallying the internet, so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramnesia View Post
    His comments on Reddit say he's 16 but his Digg profile claims he's 23. I'm more prone to believe he's 16 though and lied on his Digg profile for whatever reason. If anyone knows someone involved with Triangle Game Conference -- he had a panel called <a href=http://www.trianglegameconference.com/content/schedule_program>Monetizing Your Flash Game, Chris Gregorio XDragonX10 Productions</a> -- maybe they could gives some insight into this fellow.
    This blog post about the conference seems to confirm that he's sixteen (the writer says fifteen, but either he misheard or Chris had a birthday).


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  37. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    This blog post about the conference seems to confirm that he's sixteen (the writer says fifteen, but either he misheard or Chris had a birthday).
    He also says in the article how hypocritical it is for him to recommend only hiring 18+ year old artists.

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