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Thread: Father Time

  1. #1
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    Father Time

    Edit: The new piece is on top.

    Hey guys,

    This is for this weeks Chow. If you're here reading this, please leave a comment or a crit. I'm doing at least one activity every week to build a concept art targeted portfolio. So don't go easy on me, after all, this is going to be my career. Please let me know what you think!

    Keith
    Last edited by keith eager; July 24th, 2010 at 09:19 PM. Reason: updated thumb


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  3. #2
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    Hello there, you've got some great things going on here; the cloak, his left arm, the overall rendering of the forms... But I'm noticing a few things in your drawing you might want to revisit:

    - His right arm is much smaller than his left.
    - Head seems too big.
    - The wings look like cardboard cut-outs (homeless Father Time, heh), and they are creating uncomfortable tangents with the scythe.
    - His feet are a little too mirrored in my opinion; perhaps move one slightly back or raise it a little?

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    Gee I wonder where you got the pose from.You used the N.C. Wyeth painting "winter". How dare you rip off someone elses work and call it your own. This is pathetic and a disgrace to all the people on this site who are working hard to develop their art skills.

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    What? The only thing I can see the same is the feet.

    His right arm is bothering me. Maybe move his shoulder out a bit.

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    Wow, how about every fold in the cloak? Plus the more I look at it, I bet even the changes are cobbled from another image. It is a competition, the rules say your own work. This is a hack job pure and simple. And you will never work as a professional artist if you have to steal other artists work

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    If he uses other artist's work as reference, it's not "stealing" his work. He have still drawn it at his own. Of course, he should have mentioned the reference picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pate5 View Post
    If he uses other artist's work as reference, it's not "stealing" his work. He have still drawn it at his own. Of course, he should have mentioned the reference picture.
    Actually that is exactly what stealing someone artwork is. You should do some research into what constitutes steaing before you make such an ignorant comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pate5 View Post
    If he uses other artist's work as reference, it's not "stealing" his work. He have still drawn it at his own. Of course, he should have mentioned the reference picture.
    It would have been "reference" if he needed to get an idea of how drapery blows in the wind, or wanted to use some of those colors as a starting point for his palette. Instead he copied the drapery and the man's legs very closely, and not from a photo he took or a stock image of an unrelated theme, but from another artist's work.

    It's stealing, and if this statement is true;
    I'm doing at least one activity every week to build a concept art targeted portfolio.
    Then he plans on using this as an example of his concepting skills, which is of course dishonest since most of the image is not of his own work. If he said this was a master-study of sorts and filed it under that category on his site/blog whatever there would be no problem.

    Keith;

    Don't enter this in CHOW. Redo it if you can in another way that doesn't involve having to copy from observation someone else's work. If you want to do studies of other artist's images that's fine (and good policy if you're copying from masters) but be honest about the art you create, and don't submit them as your own creation.

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    Reference:

    dpaint, clearly you feel that the piece borrows a bit too much from the great art that I'm making a homage to. If you're so upset over this chances are other people will be too, so obviously this is an issue with the piece that needs to be addressed when I go to finish it. Of course you're going to spot the Wyeth homage, I'm definitely not trying to hide it.

    You should ease up the talk that's slanderous though. You might feel like you're exposing me as a fake, but you're not. I love to reference classical art, but I have no problem changing the piece where I've gone too far, and clearly you feel that I have.

    Paintover to come soon...

    Here's all of my reference, besides what I posed out in the mirror:

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    Jason Rainville:

    Duly noted

    "Don't enter this in CHOW. Redo it if you can in another way that doesn't involve having to copy from observation someone else's work. If you want to do studies of other artist's images that's fine (and good policy if you're copying from masters) but be honest about the art you create, and don't submit them as your own creation."

    I'll be doing exactly that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keith eager View Post
    You should ease up the talk that's slanderous though. You might feel like you're exposing me as a fake, but you're not. I love to reference classical art, but I have no problem changing the piece where I've gone too far, and clearly you feel that I have.:
    Slander is saying something that is untrue. Stealing an image is not an homage, its copyright infringement, if you try to sell it. Passing it off as your own idea is just pathetic and shows a lack of talent and ethics. Pretend whatever you want about not being a fake or disingenuous; your lack of any originality speaks for itself.

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    Whatever man, if you want the last word, it's all yours. I'm just going to get a stronger, more original piece out of this, so thanks!

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    Right, so no one is allowed to use reference for CHOW ever?

    dpaint, I know you have a lot of knowledge, but if you overlaid both pictures, the differences would greatly outweigh any similarity. Please feel free to prove me wrong. At what point of difference do you think using a picture as a starting point becomes wrong or acceptable?

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    Damnit! I was going to use Ilaekae for ref if I had time...

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    Hmm...

    Here's my thoughts.

    If you're using references, it is always good to say that up front. Even include the refs in your WIPs. Even if you weren't trying to hide anything, and it is intended to be an "homage" as you say, it never looks good coming out with that stuff AFTER someone calls you on it. If you had said that and included your references in the original post, you wouldn't have been trolled to begin with.

    Secondly, I have qualms about using master works as references in your finished works. Master copies are things that everyone is familiar with, a tool we all use to improve. But if you're using these master works in your finished artwork, even if you're up front about it, I feel as if the works that results from this will always seem DERIVATIVE. Maybe not the end of the world, but if you're trying to come up with an original voice in your work and sell your ability to come up with ideas, it could be detrimental.

    Solution for this: Reference the master works indirectly, using them as inspiration but not actually pulling elements from them directly, and using photo reference instead (best is if you can shoot it yourself, 2nd best if it's creative commons licensed, but hey we've all googled shit, just don't copy and paste)

    Lastly, I think if you ARE going to reference master works directly, you would do well to change them even further. Show that you're using these works, but when you do so you are really thinking about HOW you use them, and HOW to adapt them to the current piece you're working on in a way that best suits the piece and your artistic skill.

    I don't think you necessarily did anything morally wrong, but it is my opinion if you follow the above suggestions, you'd be in a better spot ethically, technically, and creatively.

    Good luck!
    MY WEBSITE: PaintedSky.ca
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    Right, so no one is allowed to use reference for CHOW ever?
    dpaint, I know you have a lot of knowledge, but if you overlaid both pictures, the differences would greatly outweigh any similarity. Please feel free to prove me wrong. At what point of difference do you think using a picture as a starting point becomes wrong or acceptable?
    If you mean copying things verbatim and piecing them together in photoshop from other peoples reference, no. Get your own reference, its not like it costs anything other than an idea ahead of time and the time to work it out. A person doesn't even have to buy and develop film anymore. Is everyone so lazy mentally and physically they can't make their own reference now? Ever hear of thumbnails? comps? color comps?

    As for the similarities- two thirds of that figure is copied from the Wyeth painting and no one thinks that isn't a moral issue? Remind me never to lend anyone who thinks that any money. Since the painting is pretty devoid of anything else, what else is there to copy? The eagle? I'm sure thats where he got the idea for the wings on the figure. Its copied badly but it is copied. It is fine to copy for private use or for learning, or as Elwell pointed out in another thread for parody, but not for competitions or to sell.

    Heres the nasty little secret about doing this. It takes as long to do this as it does to come up with your own ideas.

    It probably starts like this: I hate my job at McDonald's, I want to be an artist. I need to paint today but I have no ideas and I can't actually, you know try and come up with some because I can't think of any; My teacher told me nothing is original anyway... hmm let me thumb through some good painters books and see what I can find online- 6 hours later... Ooh, heres a cool picture. I bet I can put a sickle in his hand and call it father time, I'm sooo creative. Oh, oh, wait I know, I'll throw some wings on too, and uh change the head and give him a beard. Man if this comes out I'm going to make a bunch of these put them in a portfolio and get hired at Lucas or sell them as prints on DA.

    Its never acceptable except as inspiration, especially for a competition. Inspiration stops when someone fails to create their own reference from a pose or image. In this particular image the moccasins, leggings and a substantial part of the cloak down to the folds of fabric were copied; quite badly I might add. Nothing creative here, just laziness and and an unimaginative execution of a poor idea to begin with. Why do people think other peoples obvious hard work is theirs to take? If people can't come up with their own ideas and their own reference then maybe they should stay working at Starbucks or whatever lame ass uncreative job they have now because with that kind of attitude they will never be successful as a freelance artist.

  18. #17
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    Father Time
    Old man standing on a cliff with a cloak billowing in a right-to-left wind. Describes both images equally. However I don't see that as anything more than an image that was referenced perhaps a little more than it should have been, strictly speaking.
    Sketchbook

    LionWolf Studio

    con·cept  [kon-sept] –noun
    1. a general notion or idea; conception.
    2. an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.
    3. a directly conceived or intuited object of thought.
    –verb (used with object)
    4. Informal . to develop a concept of; conceive

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    So glad to see everybody talking here. You guys are intense! The do's and dont's ethically and legally of using reference is definitely something that I've always wanted to know more about, I'm certainly going to have to research it a lot more. Especially since one of my goals is to make educated art that does make direct reference to our rich history. It's really a delight when it works, just watch an episode of Family Guy.

    KarylGilbertson: I feel like you're totally spot on. Developing a strong, original voice can only be a good thing, thanks so much for the encouragement.

    I will say this: my intention with the father time piece was to give an obvious nod to the amazing NC Wyeth painting that's been posted here a few times. In portraying a solitary and monumental figure, I really wanted to pay homage to one of the great masters of this subject. This was my intention. Wyeth is a relatively famous artist, I was hoping that the more art educated folks would get a kick out of seeing a nod to his work.This was my intention. Obviously I really should have stated that up front, it was stupid not to and for that I apologize.

    Now, about whether I communicated my intention or not, I wasn't sure of it before, and now I definitely know that I didn't. That's why I posted this in the crit. forum, asking people to be hard on me. I'm trying to invite delight, but art is a struggle, and delight doesn't come easily. So I'm more than happy to adapt and keep learning.

    I've completely re-started the chow piece, this time I'm using ref. that I shot of myself in a mirror this time. I took a good long look at the piece that I did and when I look at it now, I really do feel like I was being lazy by using another artist's SOLUTIONS to the problem of drawing drapery. i believe that it's totally possible to make a nod to great art, while exercising creativity and originality at the same time. Again I've re-started the whole thing from scratch and I'm excited to post the piece up along with the ref. later tonight.

    I went to see Despicable Me a few weeks ago and in it there were two obvious references that I caught, both of which I enjoyed. The first was a portrait of the Evil Bank boss as Napoleon Bonaparte. They did a nice job of pasting the character's head onto Ingres' full length painting, letting the piece quietly hang in the background of the character's office. The other was a clear nod to a scene at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. Groo is rescued from a spire dangling over an abyss in the exact same way that Luke was rescued by Han Solo and company. For those of you who saw the film, was this lazy, or a tip of the hat?

    I've included a whole whack of examples of artists paying homage to one another in their commercial work. These guys are definitely not trying to hide where they're borrowing from! My feeling is that these pieces are a tip of the hat to the great art that they reference.

    Here's the list:

    1. Moby Francke giving a nod to J.C. Leyendecker, clearly working in Leyendecker's style, with a bit of his own twist.
    2. Moby Francke again.
    3. Lee Bermejo working in Leyendecker's style, he even credits the artist in his signature.
    4. Kaare Andrews referencing the old Hulk movie poster.
    5. Again, this time after Maurice Sendak.
    6. After Bob Peak.
    7. After Rockwell.
    8. This is Caravaggio's original deposition.
    9. This is Reubens' re-working.
    10. Alex Ross referencing an old comic( I apologize for the bad scan, I need to tweak the settings on my machine. I don't think those diagonal lines are going to go away though.).
    11. More old comics.
    12. Leyendecker this time.
    13. More old comics.
    14. Again.
    15. And again.

    Keep up the intensity people, I love it!

  20. #19
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    Re-thought

    Here's the first stage: tiny graphite comp. I will post the ref up tomorrow night, just need to get this piece done right now with what little time I have left before tomorrow at 9pm GMT.

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    Hey Keith,

    Just wanted to pop in and say your new piece is much better so far, in my opinion. It has more life to it than your last one... Keep workin!
    MY WEBSITE: PaintedSky.ca
    MY SKETCHBOOK: Ook's Book - Karyl Craves Your Approval

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    Sweet, thanks Karyl! If you have time, check out the thread for the new piece here:

    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=192811

  23. #22
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    I am no authority on the rules of referencing, but I am tending towards dpaint's view on this. Personally, I have tended to not reference things when I draw, at least not directly from other artworks, so it has never occurred to me that an artist could just pick and choose elements of other artworks and piece them together and call it his own. That seems like the equivalent in music to a mashup/remix as opposed to an original song. A mashup/remix can have value as long as it is clearly known that the work is not original.

    Keith, I give some benefit of the doubt for posting up all your references. However I must say that looking at what you took from the references in such direct fashion kind of boggles my mind.

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    wooblood,

    Yeah man I threw the Wyeth/frankenstein piece in the garbage literally. Nothing wrong with using reference the right way, but I was being super lazy, using it the wrong way and got called out on it. Which is a totally good thing, because the piece that I started over is way stronger as a result.

    I really studied the homages by famous artists that I posted up here, and what they were doing always had a twist conceptually or technically. They were building on what others had done before , but not copying solutions.

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    Swiping poses is pretty common. To some people think it is paying respect. Most people see it differently. I'm pretty neutral. I used to have teacher that acted like swiping tid bits was just good problem solving. I definitely saw things differently. I actually think swiping is in the same ball park of taking reference too seriously.

    Kieth- If you pay homage be prepared to pay cash.

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