I'm aiming to be a character concept artist...but I'm young. What can I do right now?
Join the #1 Art Workshop - LevelUpJoin Premium Art Workshop

Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: I'm aiming to be a character concept artist...but I'm young. What can I do right now?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    2
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Unhappy I'm aiming to be a character concept artist...but I'm young. What can I do right now?

    Hi there! I'm a newbie!


    I've recently joined this site and looked at some of the concept art advice threads here and there. Most of the people who've asked for advice were around 'college freshie' age with at least some experience to their names. (Most weren't aiming for the gaming field either)


    The thing is...I'm just a self-taught drawing sophomore in highschool. Me and my brother have this dream of having a gaming company partnership one day. (We've come up with some great ideas together) I have a wacom tablet, but no photoshop.(Which is intimidating) All I have to work with is Microsoft paint.(Which SUCKS...) I'm slightly familiar with Flash now because of this Digital Media Arts camp I've been going to for 4 years. We've made a couple group-work games there so far. Plus it's held at the community college I'm going to go to for a while, so at least I've got some connections with people there who've worked with me. (It may not seem like much but it's pretty big for a community college and the people I know have their fingers in a good deal of pies as well)


    Basically:

    -I'm okay with Flash so far (but I hear it's exspensive)

    -I know I should learn Photoshop (But I hear it's also expensive and it scares the crap out of me... )

    -I have no idea what a tiling texture is or half of the other crazy settings and I'm still struggling with the concept of layers. I'm more of a 'get-to-the-point-paper-pencil' person.



    Besides the whole 'draw everyday' and 'look at other's works' thing, is there anything else I should be doing? Am I freaking out for no reason and getting ahead of myself or am I falling behind? What can I do right now at 16? (College doesn't seem that far away anymore)


    Also....

    When I first heard of 'concept art' and 'character concept artist' I immediately thought "Oh! That's perfect! I like drawing people and I'll be able to work with a group of people to evaluate my ideas that'll go in the game....YEAH! I'll be character concept artist when I grow up!! "

    Obviously since there's more competition in this feild, I'll have to learn to 'wear different hats'. I can't JUST be a character concept artist, right? Or else I won't get hired? Or is it possible to just stick with one?


    I'm sorry if I've come off as comepletely naive and n00bish (Because I am), but I'm growing up in a family of english/math teachers. I literally have NO ONE else to ask. And this site is obviously full of knowledgable and experienced people.

    So please....HELP?

    Last edited by FrenchFrie; August 10th, 2010 at 05:23 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    2
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    It does seem overwhelming, and it really can be at times.
    The most important thing you can do is just stick with it, focus on developing your artistic abilities, and don't confine yourself to one area.
    You don't want to have the mindset of "I have to do this, this, and this. And be good at a billion different things!" that's what makes you feel so overwhelmed. Enjoy your art! If creating art becomes something that you enjoy, then your skills will naturally progress and you will want to know more about things such as photoshop, rather then feeling like you have to.

    Best of luck to you

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to EFizzle For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    262
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 40 Times in 32 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Hey dude, pretty well written question, it's greatthat you know what you want to do, at an early age. As far as getting photshop, Id recommend honing your skills traditionally first. There is no rush to jump right into paying alot of money for a program until you ge the basics down, atleast to me.

    If you really want to get your feet wet with digital software, try looking at Alchemy (free to use) or just download the free trials from photoshop, painter, art rage. Also, post some of your work on here, you can't get any crits. if there is no work.

    Take it easy.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to thescala For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    164
    Thanks
    176
    Thanked 99 Times in 32 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Also: GIMP is a good alternative to photoshop.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  7. #5
    DimMak's Avatar
    DimMak is offline concept artist, designer, lover of all things awesome Level 3 Gladiator: Catervarii
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    129
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    i really agree with thescala you should really be honing your skills with traditional mediums first. Get to be amazing with pencil and paper or paint and canvas first, then when you transition to photoshop or another digital medium, you'll have so much more to go on and your work will show your true talent. A lot people who transition into digital mediums too soon end up relying on the programs too much without having enough background in figure drawing, color theory, etc...

    best of luck to you. you have a real advantage by knowing that this is what you want to get into at this early stage. I graduated art school and schlepped through a few years as a graphic designer before i realized i wanted to get into concept art and illustration..

    work hard, then work harder.

    Concept Art Illustrator and Designer for Hire.
    http://goo.gl/YxUhF
    http://www.tommeldesign.com
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to DimMak For This Useful Post:


  9. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Barnsley-Leamington Spa
    Posts
    305
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 39 Times in 30 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Hi FrenchFrie
    I can only tell you from my own experience as a concept artist that flexability is key to a career. For example I am currently working at EA and although initially I was hired as an environmental concept artist only- I have also done as much character concept, props, vehicles, and level designs in my time here.
    And an art director is always interested in a sketch book - anything that shows a creative thought process.
    Basically traditional skills are a must and just a passion for art and a knowledge of anatomy and the logic of how something works whether mechanical or organic is pretty essential too.
    Hope that gives you a few pointers on what to look at. and keep trying, it really is one of the best jobs you can have for satisfaction.

    'Champagne for my real friends and real pain for my sham friends' Francis Bacon
    Sketchbook-
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=179977
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to village idiot For This Useful Post:


  11. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Vancouver BC
    Posts
    44
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 21 Times in 4 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    The biggest blockade in your way is fear, or rather intimidation. I don't believe there is a right time or wrong time to experiment with anything in art, Digital or traditional methods.

    Don't be intimidated by the possible outcome of a bad drawing or artistic piece. As my teacher told me, "The price of 1 good drawing is 1000 bad ones".

    The other thing to watch out for is setting impossible limitations on the process of art. Every time I hear someone say that digital painting, or using matte painting in concept art is some kind of cheat I counter with Reductio ad absurdum.

    If using one tool to enhance our ability to do art is bad then does that imply that using french curves or rulers is bad? (Some people think so.) Does that mean that art must be difficult and limited only to the steady handed? I have a friend who is semi-color blind who does photo-realistic impressions using the color-picker tool.

    If you are interested in learning more about the process of concept art may I recommend a book like "The Skillful Huntsman". If you haven't already had the opportunity then I would recommend learning the method of drawing by sillhouette, which opens up a whole world of possibilities.

    If you can take art from something that you work on to being something that absorbs your leisure time, because it's fun and rejuvinating then your growth will be remarkable. Remember to be fearless as well and meet any challenge head on (maybe an unfamiliar art style you want to explore or gain proficiency with) keeping in mind that the outcome of each individual battle on the path to achieving your ultimate potential is not so significant as your willingness to fight it. To Paraphrase Zig Ziglar:

    "People say that motivation doesn't last. Well, neither does bathing - that's why we recommend it daily"

    This also applies to Inspiration, and you're in one of the right places to find it.

    How long does it take to become elite? (And by no means do you need to be elite to work in the industry). Well the studies seem to point to 10,000 hours, this is in music, athletics, and I'm sure it applies to art as well. 3 hours a day for 10 years or 6 hours for 5 years. Virtuoso Musicians practice for 8 hours a day just to give an example.

    The secret is obsession, or call it addiction if you rather. If these people saw their craft as "work" or "hard" or "something I have to do" then their minds would buckle and they would resort to distraction. It's the same mindset as the World of Warcraft player. Tailor your artistic experience to be addictive!

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  12. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Gumpshmee For This Useful Post:


  13. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Pasadena, CA/Chicago
    Posts
    732
    Thanks
    534
    Thanked 468 Times in 279 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    if you want a way to get photoshop or other programs for pretty cheap, you can register for a class or two at that community college whenever you have the time for it. adobe and corel and all those have student discounts for college and up (not sure about high school). for example, i got the adobe creative suite (like 8 prgrams) for around 500-600 bucks. normally its like $2500. i also got painter 10 for $50
    as far as experience goes, best thing i can say is pretty much what everyone else does: draw more. a lot of people talk about a "visual library" you build up through drawing things. if you want to do characters, do figure drawing and portraits, lots of expressions, and maybe individual features (like eyes and noses and such). Plus different outfits. and if you need to polish your drawing skills, there are a lot of tutorials online with random little tips and stuff, but really the best way to do that (at least for me) is to draw from life (start with still lifes if you need to). I just graduated high school and i want to be a creature and environment concept artist (but i wouldnt mind doing character and maybe prop design) so we're in the same boat. dont worry about feeling overwhelmed. you still have two years of high school (id suggest taking AP studio art if you can) and four years of im guessing an art major in college. little steps hope that helps

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to lancer_idenoure For This Useful Post:


  15. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    115
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I don't want to sound like I'm hijacking this thread, but I'm assuming this advice all applies to us old guys, too, right?

    FrenchFrie, I totally share your aspirations. I'm 32, currently in my career as a web designer (or graphic designer for web), and I also dream of being a concept artist for a company like Lucasfilm or other entertainment company...there's proof that you're never too old for these kinds of dreams.

    I wish you the best of luck, and I agree with the other advice here. Hone your traditional skills, because those are the backbone of a good artist. Before you buy Photoshop or anything like that, I would say get yourself a set of good drawing pencils, a good set of ink pens (not Bics, but the really nice black ink pens for drawing) and a set of Prismacolor markers. If you look at the "Art of Star Wars" series of books, which are among my all-time favourites, almost all of the concept sketches and drawings are pen-and-ink with graded markers. The markers are generally on the spendy side, but the are totally worth it!

    If you click on my sketchbook (which links to my DA profile) you can see a picture I did with greyscale markers. It's manga, but the only manga piece in my portfolio.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Cozmo For This Useful Post:


  17. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Pei, Canada
    Posts
    107
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Great to hear that someone so you is so focused on their future...kudos to you. I will tell you that if I were in your situation I would spend the next 3 years (no joke) doing nothing but anatomy drawing. Once you have those skills rock solid then everything else in will be gravy. Dont stress, you are in good shape and have more then enough time to learn what you need to.... Take my advice and enjoy the journey.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Tattoocalypse For This Useful Post:


  19. #11
    Elwell's Avatar
    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,666 Times in 5,020 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Advocating or encouraging the use of pirated software is a bannable offense around here. Other mods and admins are much quicker with the banhammer than I am, you may not get a warning next time. Keep your noses clean.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  20. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,540
    Thanks
    46
    Thanked 272 Times in 200 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by lancer_idenoure View Post
    if you want a way to get photoshop or other programs for pretty cheap, you can register for a class or two at that community college whenever you have the time for it. adobe and corel and all those have student discounts for college and up (not sure about high school). for example, i got the adobe creative suite (like 8 prgrams) for around 500-600 bucks. normally its like $2500. i also got painter 10 for $50
    as far as experience goes, best thing i can say is pretty much wha
    I'm assuming the OP is in high school, in which case, he wouldn't need to sign up for community college classes to get the student discount.

    You're definitely not behind, but it's about time to start seriously thinking about college admissions and your portfolio. Getting into art schools is generally pretty easy, but getting enough scholarships to make them affordable isn't. Start thinking about what schools will want to see (hint: life drawing) and do your best to keep your grades up.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to Meloncov For This Useful Post:


  22. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Reading
    Posts
    17
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    My first post yay. I heard that this book "The new Drawing on the Right side of the brain" is a really good book for beginner at drawing, follow it through in order and it will pretty much have you set once you’ve gone through it a few times and practiced a bit as well I would look at books by George Bridgman and start copying or developing some the techniques he mentions maybe even just adapt them to when you draw from life.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  23. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    217
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 83 Times in 60 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Sorry to bump this thread, but if you want to get into digital art, go for it. I can see why some people would say go traditional first, infact some of the best digital artists out there were traditional first, but the fundamentals are still there and you still gotta know them, digital art is a tool, not a magic wand that grants you instant results. There is alot of distracting crap in digital art (filter effects in PS, *cough*), just look past it, hell, sometimes I'll go into PS, use one layer, and start painting away with the brush and eyedrop tool being the only things I'm using, just like a traditional painting. And no one says you can't mix digital and traditional together. Also find out what you enjoy the most in art, if you enjoy it, it won't be work.

    Again, work on your fundamentals; proportion, value, form and conveying it with line, light, and shade, perspective as set of principles and as a construction method, color theory, and composition. But that doesn't mean you gotta go back to square one and go drawing eggs, cubes, and other basic geometric shapes until you mastered the fundamentals, you can do that and draw what you like at the same time.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to stabby2486 For This Useful Post:


  25. #15
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    pocatello, ID
    Posts
    16
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    hey frenchie,

    try e-bay to see if you can purchase PHOTOSHOP for a descent price our even Autodesk Maya 2010 which is one of the programs that helped make Avatar, some people sell keys codes that you can purchase for a good price at times. but before you buy anything look up you tube first to see if you like what you see. don't be intimidated by those who speed paint! make sure your computer can run the programs first, check your specifications on the software. there are also free trail down loads for these softwares. draw with your soul!!! and dont give up for any reason criticism make us better even if it hurts!!

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to Dan Bee For This Useful Post:


  27. #16
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    pocatello, ID
    Posts
    16
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    hey frenchie,

    try e-bay to see if you can purchase PHOTOSHOP for a descent price our even Autodesk Maya 2010 which is one of the programs that helped make Avatar, some people sell keys codes that you can purchase for a good price at times. but before you buy anything look up you tube first to see if you like what you see. don't be intimidated by those who speed paint! make sure your computer can run the programs first, check your specifications on the software. there are also free trail down loads for these softwares. draw with your soul!!! and dont give up for any reason criticism make us better even if it hurts!!

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  28. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    in your area causing mass hyseria
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    In contrast to EFIZZLE, its good that you're putting pressure on yourself to do this and that. Also it may pay off to confine yourself--that allows you to focus. You don't want to go about achieving your goals in a willy nilly manner.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  29. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 51 Times in 46 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    DON'T follow Dan Bee's advice!!!!

    I bought a copy of PS from ebay a few years ago and tried to register it...Not a good thing and it didn't work. I think that the guy I bought it from is in jail now.

    You can, however, talk to your local community college. They will be able to get you PS at a huge discount. I go to the AIPOD and I can get the full Adobe Creative Suite for $500 bucks. And that has most every Adobe software you will need.

    That stated, there are things you can do for free.

    Gimp is PS alternative.
    Alchemy is a digital drawing program.
    Blender is a great 3D program for modeling and animation, not unlike 3DS Max and Maya.

    Basically, do some internet searches. You will be amazed at what you can find out there that is freeware or shareware. Download the trials of any of them, if they are shareware and the full version of freeware. Trials will have a limitation on them, but they will tell you if you will like the program before you buy it.

    That covers the digital stuff.

    Now:

    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=131116

    Go there for free books. Most all of those are out of print now, so download them and hide them away in your digital library.

    Then, I would head to Michael's. Pick up a pencil set (About $10 to 20) and a couple of sketchpads. Start drawing anything and everything. First work on your lines...they should be confident and true as you can make them. But, don't worry about straight lines...that's what a ruler is for after all.

    The book mentioned earlier, "Drawing from the right side of the brain", is great book and has paid huge dividends for me already, even though I'm still in school.

    One thing you don't want to do...EVER...Don't get discouraged and give up. Trust me. I let a teacher tell me, years ago, that I couldn't draw. I believed him. I struggled with the artist in me since then. This year I turn 40 and I've just figured out what I want to be when I grow up...an artist. And...under the popular instructors and this site, I can draw. Kind of sad to figure it out now, but I'll take what I can get, at this point.

    Good Luck to you.

    Last edited by darkwolf29a; July 29th, 2010 at 11:22 AM. Reason: Grammar, punctuation, missed words...I'm artist, not a writer, Jim!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    Everybody sucks when they start. Everybody sucks from time to time, no matter how much experience they have. You have permission to suck. What you don't have is permission to make yourself miserable.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  30. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to darkwolf29a For This Useful Post:


  31. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Barnsley-Leamington Spa
    Posts
    305
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 39 Times in 30 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I don't know if it is still available , but you used to be able to get photoshop elements for about 80. As a 3d programme, 'sketchup' is free and popular, especially with game designers. Again I don't know if this still is the case, but when I bought a small and cheap wacom tablet it came with a copy of painter, I never used it because I already had it installed but I think that was a full but older version.
    These are all good for starting up and getting familiar with the packages and I think what Darkwolf29a mentioned is perfect for you too.

    'Champagne for my real friends and real pain for my sham friends' Francis Bacon
    Sketchbook-
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=179977
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  32. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Posts
    2,650
    Thanks
    2,373
    Thanked 1,008 Times in 645 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    That was some great advice guys. I've just turned 16 right now but I have a pretty solid idea of what I want and I've been working towards.

    I really loved all the advice about passion and making art an addiction. This becomes one of the truest things, it really shouldn't be work.

    I agree whole heartedly with that, make it fun, addictive, like the best of games and you'll do it always. Take part in CHOW, EOW, COW, Teen Challenge, these are all good for building a portfolio. Cghub has some great competitions too.

    What I am doing is I am constantly trying to make art even more enjoyable, trying to improve, gain experience and always have a portfolio to the best of my ability. I do whatever I find enjoyable but I study as well.

    A quick tip, whenever I am not freelancing, to get experience I find some MODS and other game projects that I would love to work on and I join the teams. I've found it's a brilliant way to keep yourself busy and get that game artist experience early on. It really teaches you a lot about taking feedback, working with a team, building a game up from scratch etc. If it's something you'd enjoy I would definitely recommend it

    Best of luck frenchfrie, if you ever want to talk to someone around the same age as you just Pm me

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to Nibras For This Useful Post:


  34. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    SAI

    Why MS Paint, try SAI paint program. it's really great, i don't know if better than Gimp but good nonetheless.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  35. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Hi,

    Don't be upset if you don't have a Photoshop because that is acceptable because of the price of the software. Why don't you try GIMP? It just look like Photoshop but it is completely free.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  36. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    A bunch of different places.
    Posts
    635
    Thanks
    299
    Thanked 508 Times in 230 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I have only one piece of advice for you. In my opinion, it trumps all else.

    BECOME COMPLETELY BADASS.

    Yes there's a little more to it than that, you can't be a tool and expect things to turn out anyway, etc, but that's beside the point.

    I'm serious. Become completely badass. Be it with pencil, charcoal, crayons, pens, photoshop, GIMP, sai, whatever's the case - whatever you have available.

    Work hard, and become badass. The details are pretty impossible to plan.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  37. The Following User Says Thank You to Two Listen For This Useful Post:


  38. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    2
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thanks SO much everybody for replying to this! [I thought I wasn't gonna get any feedback]

    This has really helped me get motivated in my drawing.

    Also, thescala, I have some of my work uploaded on my Deviantart: http://artisticfrenchfrie.deviantart.com/

    If anyone wants to look.


    And Two Listen...you made me laugh. xD

    Last edited by FrenchFrie; August 10th, 2010 at 07:10 PM.
    Here's my Deviantart: http://artisticfrenchfrie.deviantart.com/

    [Not all my work is there and some of it is old]
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  39. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    13
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Yep, I'm in the same boat as you.. only just starting high school.
    So this topic has just been subscribed to.

    ... Carry on.

    I felt like a bulldozer
    Trying to catch a butterfly

    [. My Deviantart... ]
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •