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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Or maybe they are IMPOSTERS planted by the HIGHER ORDER to keep an eye on defectors!
    You may be onto something. There's something funny about their latest self portraits. I can't seem to put my finger on it.

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  3. #152
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    There is a community. But when people start thinking they are the community it ceases to exist.

     

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  5. #153
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    I'm just looking to clarify something. Two of the people that were offered full scholarships to TAD turned them down because some of the MB guys aren't going to be full time instructors? Did I just read that correctly?

    "Contrary to the belief of the layman, the essential of art is not to imitate nature, but under the guise of imitation to stir up excitement with pure plastic elements: measurements, directions, ornaments, lights, values, colors, substances, divided and organized according to the injunctions of natural laws. While so occupied, the artist never ceases to be subservient to nature, but instead of imitating the incidents in a paltry way, he imitates the laws."-Andre Lhote

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  6. #154
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    Not quite. The original posts from algenpfleger and Janaschi addressing why they were stepping away back from their scholarships have now been deleted, but here's a link to a still existing Google cache of one of the original posts.

    Edit:


    Some relevant info from someone on-scene at the TAD Kansas City workshop on the topic (please read response in its entirety in original post):

    Quote Originally Posted by cognition.sb View Post
    It's my understanding that those MB artists will not be participating in TAD, at least not at this point and most likely not in the future.


    Last edited by burning_chrome; July 1st, 2010 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Info Update
     

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  8. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    I love this community. Even though I can see everything is fucked. I know it's bad when basically all of the names I associate with CA have been banned. I just assumed it was a petty contract dispute. I really wish I hadn't read every single post, but I did. Now I understand why this community has lost some of it's motivation. Every time I come to the lounge it's just to break from my drawings. Drawings I never bother to post. This has become a place to hang out with artists I can relate to rather than posting and critiquing art like I used to. TAD looks interesting, the instructors are experienced and talented but very few of them are from the community. None of them have cut their teeth in a Thunder Dome. CA was meant to be a DIY art school where fellow artists can teach eachother. Now it's being pushed as preschool for TAD. After reading this thread I plan on spending much more time in the critique center than the lounge. If anybody has a problem with the community being less helpful, then I suggest you do the same.
    Thank you very much for this post Raoul. This is EXACTLY what we need to see more of. We all seem to understand what the spirit of CA was before it became a springboard for MB advertising, so why don't we all pitch in with a broom and dust collector and put this place right?

    This community was built by our devotion to the core mission of CA, and it CAN become that way again.

    I had mentioned long ago that there ought to be posting quotas made, and I still think this is a viable option. Nothing horrendously strict, but something I think could benefit the community as a whole.

    Simplest answer, to me, is that the lounge is one big problem, since it's just the hang out spot for all the ex-active arists, and many newcomers see it as the way to go, since all the older more experienced members all hang out here. Why not impose posting quotas where, for example, you need to post X number of posts in the ART forum/subforum of your choice, which you can select in an update to the User CP, and if you don't meet the quota, then an automated system would simply restrict access to the lounge for a day, or a week, or a month depending on the number of infractions, or how many posts short of the quota you are.

    This is not perfect, of course, but it's one that for a long time I felt would help get the ball rolling.

    I can imagine a lot of people would post crap up in those forums just to have lounge rights but it's a lot like what Larry Winget has to say about keeping your house tidy.

    If you don't just walk around in your house once in a while, you will never notice that this magazine is our of place, or that picture needs to be adjusted etc., etc., etc.

    Maybe something like this, basically forcing people to wander around the art boards looking for posts to critique would encourage a lot closer scrutiny of the situation, and encourage a lot of members here to actually examine our environment, and real critiques and sharing might result.

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  9. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by burning_chrome View Post
    Not quite. The original posts from algenpfleger and Janaschi addressing why they were stepping away back from their scholarships have now been deleted, but here's a link to a still existing Google cache of one of the original posts.
    I keep seeing people, including some with administrator privileges, say that the Private Messaging system here is not actually private. Is that just rumor, or do we need to use e-mail if we want to speak in confidence?

    If the Private Messaging system is not private, it really needs to be called something else. Monitoring private mail is a serious breach of trust.

     

  10. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl View Post
    I keep seeing people, including some with administrator privileges, say that the Private Messaging system here is not actually private. Is that just rumor, or do we need to use e-mail if we want to speak in confidence?

    If the Private Messaging system is not private, it really needs to be called something else. Monitoring private mail is a serious breach of trust.
    I believe it's pretty standard for most major forums to run logs on user behavior lol.

    And if someone really wanted to be intrusive: what would stop admin from just logging in your account?

    -_- do you people seriously have nothing to draw or work on...?

    Last edited by JakehC; July 2nd, 2010 at 01:27 AM.
     

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  12. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sepulverture View Post
    *posting quotas*
    This is the absolute wrong way to go. You do not want people posting in the critique section just so they can participate elsewhere, you want them to post because they are genuinely self-motivated to. It is highly probable that the quality of critiques would devolve into something you might see on deviantArt if you needed to give "x" number of critiques in order to do "y".

    In fact, I think personal motivation is what was nice about the "before" CA. Professionals and others were self-motivated enough to critique so-and-so's art. This meant that the critique was a representation of an individual's vested interested in the personal and artistic development of "so-and-so". This is what allowed acquaintances and relationships to form on a kind of personal level. While I am sure there are many reasons for the loss of that motivation, nailing down one (i.e. the lounge) as the progenitor of this whole ordeal is simply impossible to do.

     

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  14. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolbbq View Post

    -_- do you people seriously have nothing to draw or work on...
    Once again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig D View Post
    Maybe you should take your own advice.
    Srsly, dude.

     

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  16. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl View Post
    Once again...



    Srsly, dude.
    once again (see... i can reuse shit to)

    Quote Originally Posted by lolbbq View Post
    -_- do you people seriously have nothing to draw or work on...?

    you are the weakest link...goodbye.

    *back to making art*








    =p

    Last edited by JakehC; July 2nd, 2010 at 01:42 AM.
     

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  18. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolbbq View Post
    I believe it's pretty standard for most major forums to run logs on user behavior lol.

    And if someone really wanted to be intrusive: what would stop admin from just logging in your account?

    -_- do you people seriously have nothing to draw or work on...?
    Just speaking for myself and not on behalf of any others on this site. As an admin and one who has done admin work for years not just on this site - I do not engage in this practice. No matter how tempting it is. I also had access to databases in which I could see personal notes (not this site in particular). I left it alone.

    I'm just saying that just because we (as in an an administrator) have access doesn't mean it's something we do. There have been cases where we needed to, legal reasons but nothing else.

    That said, I know stuff online on other hosted sites are "not safe" because I'm aware any administrator has access, but I feel its important to build a user's trust not to take advantage.

     

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  20. #162
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    Arshes Nei is offline Registered User Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
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    Sorry guys, but I keep seeing some personal attacks in this thread. I really like the ideas spurning about how to help the community. Please do make more posts on that but, since this has too many issues going on at once - I think it's best to make the community suggestions on a new thread.


    Editing: I'm re-opening the thread, but let this post be a further warning for personal attacks. I got this itchy trigger finger. I think we've all reached a point where we know when we shouldn't be making things into personal attacks. So please be civil and such.

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; July 2nd, 2010 at 02:18 AM.
     

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  22. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goog View Post
    This is the absolute wrong way to go. You do not want people posting in the critique section just so they can participate elsewhere, you want them to post because they are genuinely self-motivated to. It is highly probable that the quality of critiques would devolve into something you might see on deviantArt if you needed to give "x" number of critiques in order to do "y".

    In fact, I think personal motivation is what was nice about the "before" CA. Professionals and others were self-motivated enough to critique so-and-so's art. This meant that the critique was a representation of an individual's vested interested in the personal and artistic development of "so-and-so". This is what allowed acquaintances and relationships to form on a kind of personal level. While I am sure there are many reasons for the loss of that motivation, nailing down one (i.e. the lounge) as the progenitor of this whole ordeal is simply impossible to do.
    Ultimately you're right that this sort of solution might lead to that kind of behavior, which I think I mentioned in my original post of the idea, but something DOES need to be suggested, and action does need to be taken.

    Why don't we all just start pitching in ideas about how to improve things around here from the side of the users?

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  23. #164
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    Guys,

    I just want to say that I am very, very thankful to be apart of conceptart.org.
    Any person I run into that has a passion for art I tell them to go to conceptart and get plugged into the forums and do the sketchbook and post your work and help build the community by helping other artists like themselves. I myself have lacked in posts recently do to many great things and bad things happening in my life but I have always had my eyes on here for quite some time and growing up from gradeschool to now running off into the real world, I have to admit that I would in no way be where I am now if it was not for CA. I mean, this place has made such a huge impact on my life and my art growth that there is no one but my parents and God himself that has molded me more. I have learned about myself and my flaws and how I can not only become a better artist but also a better person. I remember when I first came on here I was completely amazed at the work I saw. I had no clue there was really this kind of talent that I could actually talk to and relate to. I didn't know the possibilities of what I could achieve in becoming the artist that everyone has the potential of. At that time I had never really believed that I could be an artist. An artist with a drive that could impact people's lives and support my future family. An artist that could help others following in the CA footsteps that I am following. An artist that got pure joy by simply being able to draw and use my hands and my eyes and my body to actually create something! Posting and reading, looking at the tutorials, listening to the wisdom of the older members, watching and looking up to other artists and humbling myself, buying downloads and dvds, going to the Dallas Ateilier and seeing first hand what it is all about and talking to some of my heroes are just a few things that I would never pass up in a life time.

    I think everyone can agree that this world is not perfect and no one here is perfect. There is always going to be things like this, but I feel that even though I do not know all of the full details, this is porbably the best thing that could of happened when it did.

    At least I am still alive and can continue to do what I love. And at least CA is continuing on and still opening doors to that once 14 year old boy who didn't know he could do what he dreamed of doing.

    On and upwards! cool beans.

     

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  25. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sepulverture View Post
    Ultimately you're right that this sort of solution might lead to that kind of behavior, which I think I mentioned in my original post of the idea, but something DOES need to be suggested, and action does need to be taken.

    Why don't we all just start pitching in ideas about how to improve things around here from the side of the users?
    Good idea!

    Instead of requiring critiques, how about encouraging critiques? Good critiquers used to be awarded a little eyeball icon; I think merit badges of that sort might improve the ratio of critiques to bs around here. A system of awarding them could be problematic, though.

    Also, I may be alone in this, but I don't particularly like the "thanks" button; you're much more likely to get "thanks" for a snarky post in the Lounge rather than a helpful post in the Sketchbook section. Replacing the thanks button with a "good critique" button might encourage more critiques.

     

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  27. #166
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    I like that one JC lol

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  28. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl View Post
    Also, I may be alone in this, but I don't particularly like the "thanks" button; you're much more likely to get "thanks" for a snarky post in the Lounge rather than a helpful post in the Sketchbook section. Replacing the thanks button with a "good critique" button might encourage more critiques.
    "Good critique" button is a great idea though it can be used as "instant sarcasm" button too. I don't like the thanks button either. I don't use it but I have to admit I have made some posts just to get some thanks under them. I believe many people are fishing for thanks with witty remarks and I would really like to see that button gone. It can create some unnecessary drama. I'm sure a lot of people remember one particular thread involving hot girls.

     

  29. #168
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    ... I don't see what's everyone's problem with the thanks button is. I mean... Yeah, a "Good Critique" button would be nice. That's a cool idea, but what's wrong with thanks? I like to thank posts that I like or have read and appreciated, instead of quoting the post with a tiny reply like "Thanks" or "QFE" and bumping the thread.

    And I certainly don't mind the fact that admins can look at PMs, especially if it's something against the policy.

    Reading the tags again... Nibru's Bagel Christmas sounds like a lot of fun.

    And about the two people with the scholarship thing that left, I understand it and don't. Like... Yeah, maybe they advertised the teachers, but they also advertised what those teachers were capable of and the content of the classes. I wish them both well, but if a teacher gets replaced... All colleges do that. Some teachers get sick or, in the case of one of my own, got pregnant and wanted to spend time with her child for the rest of the school year. The teacher that replaced her was pretty damn good. Sorry if I sound judgmental but you should quit a scholarship program if you're not getting taught, not because a teacher was absent, at least in my opinion. Sometimes replacement teachers can be just as capable or even better.

    And the rest of the drama... It's a bummer, that's all. Yeah, this site and a few people on it have done things I haven't really agreed with, but there's no point in heating up about it. I deleted my avatar and signature almost wanting to leave at one point. If I leave, I'll leave and try not to make a thread about it. Maybe I'll come back. I have to remind myself that this site runs on donations/dvds/streaming classes/downloads.

     

  30. #169
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    People thank what they like. We all don't like the same thing so what get's thanked won't always be what we agree with. I would think people don't use the thank button as much in the critique sections due to the amount of work that goes into critiquing, thanking the person with a real post seems much more sincere.

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  31. #170
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    There could be an exclusive hardcore gloves off subforum where you have to earn it, sort of like the FF section, but with serious art direction. There would have to be a portfolio review or an initiation process (like joining a gang) Where you are given some fundamental assignments like perspective, anatomy, color theory and line art. In return we all follow tutorials and do master studies together once a week. If you can't keep up then you get jumped out. Not like I'd join or anything.

     

  32. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    I would think people don't use the thank button as much in the critique sections due to the amount of work that goes into critiquing, thanking the person with a real post seems much more sincere.
    But I think all of us have fished for thanks before; it's fun to see that number go up. And everyone knows that the Critique Center is poor fishing.

    I don't hate the thanks button, but as it is, what does having 1,000 thanks by your name even mean anymore? I think Mr. Manley said, when the system was originally integrated, that thanks and groans were to be a way of knowing at a glance who was contributing to the community. In practice, all they mean is that you probably hang out in the Lounge and make funny comments a lot. What if you actually had to contribute something useful to make that number go up? As far as ideas to make this community more helpful to struggling artists, I think this one would have an effect.

    Also, I think "thanks" are used a lot as a device to weigh in on arguments from the sidelines in a passive-aggressive sort of way, which I find a little distasteful. That's a side issue, though.

    Anyway, it's just a thought.

     

  33. #172
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    Being an active part in the art sections of this forum and being a good artist is way more of a boost to e-cred than a post count or how many time's a person is thanked. I don't even know why we have a counter for thanking or being thanked. I would be cool with removing them if enough people thought that something like that had a serious effect on the forum.

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  34. #173
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    I was rather shocked when I first logged on and seen this thread here in the lounge... I was rather worried that I would loose a good thing here. But with the kind words of Coro and Carl shifting the wave here to something positive I am re-affirmed again that this place changes things for the better.

    On a side note... I was wondering if the Modmen and Modladys might be interested in developing a sub forum setup about Analog Media (Yah I went there screw that 'traditional' crap :p) Something to help organize the Oil/Acrylic/Graphite and such threads and perhaps give people a more direct line to the information.

    Perhaps even organize the Digital Media subforums as so we can help organize the Photoshop/Gimp/painter and such a bit more as well as perhaps a subforum about preserving and enhancing our PCs (or something of that sort for our tech headed friends to help everyone out!)

    Just a couple of interesting thoughts from the mad man!

    -Shawn

    (Oh and a PS here- I noticed Arshes little sketchbook icon got onto my notes up there without my acting... but a interesting little note of no concern I think there was something in the user cp that had a sketchbook line somewhere... its been a minute.)

    Last edited by The Crazy Dude SRD; July 2nd, 2010 at 04:29 AM.
     

  35. #174
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    Funny, Coro and Carls make a post and it seems that all is getting better.

    I've read the whole thread and I can conclude one thing: Every single person in here talking and arguing about what happened to some of the MB peeps and to this website....is done because they care about this website. We all freaking love this website. Now let us set the stuff of the past aside and build upon this love we share.

    just my 2 cents....

     

  36. #175
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    What about another sub section to the Sketchbooks?

    Sketchbook Champions: (for lack of a better name)
    The only way your book will stay in this subsection is if it's updated at least once a week.
    To get your book into this section requires: 1 update each week for 3 consecutive weeks.
    If you fail to update once a week, your book is thrown back in the regular Sketchbook section.

    There are too many books people post up, and let die - taking the spot of someone who's actually working hard.
    I like me some sketchbooks with a bunch of pages in it. Also I think this would encourage people to make art more often -
    It would be a nice challenge to stay in it.

    Last edited by Ryan K; July 2nd, 2010 at 04:49 AM.
     

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  38. #176
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    I think the whole forum structure is in need of an overhaul, to get rid of redundancies, more clearly specify what goes with without any word mincing, and an army of moderators needs to be enlisted to check and make sure that rules are being followed, and posts are helping build towards something.

    I still think that the motto "service guarantees citizenship" ought to be enforced to some degree here.

    Balance is the key in all of this of course. For example, who are any of us to ban or delete a member for not posting enough kick-ass critiques, but at the same time how do we encourage members to fulfill their duties as citizens of CA.org?

    I think one way would be tiered site access, roughly similar to what I mentioned before about posting to acquire access to the lounge. There is the definite problem of people posting in the other forums just for the sake of gaining higher access rights, but this goes back to the army of mods thing I mentioned before.

    It wouldn't be hard if there were sufficient numbers of volunteer moderators to simply skim through threads, and if a pattern is established where users are just saying "WHOA KICK ASS DRAWING DOODMEISTER" to gain privileges, then appropriate action can be taken.

    How is appropriate action determined? Simple, make a highly visible public service announcement in each forum and subforum describing in clear English what is considered appropriate posting for that forum.

    Of course as with any system there would be exploitable flaws, but I think that would be the quickest, and easiest way to start redirecting traffic in a way that is constructive to the site, and allows for people to work towards helping develop the community aspect of the site by offering clear tangible goals.

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  40. #177
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    The point of this site, to me, has always been about facilitating the type of environment(s) that foster the urge to become a better artist.

    We're never going to make people do art. The people who hardly participate in the art sections of the site aren't going to start because we get badges or new buttons, or because there is no Lounge. Punishment in most capacities would hide the problem but it wouldn't solve the problem. As long as I've been here, we've always succeeded at some things, obviously, to put asses in the seats.

    There's not many subjects off limits. Even more controversial stuff is accepted albeit with discussion as expected. We cater to some specific mediums but are not mutually exclusive to others. I would hope that collages, graffiti, fresco, etc would all be taken as seriously as concept art in the critique center. Photomob was created to give a place for photographers to go and expand our horizons. There was even talk of a similar forum area for 3D modeling. We inherently give people control over their schedules, their learning processes and their art.

    However, as I have said in the past, the serious artists club mentality has to go. Stop telling people in non-art posting areas to go draw. I know some of the higher-ups eat, breathe, and sleep art but art is not everything to everyone. Some of us have lives outside of art. Some of our learning processes don't entail spending every waking moment scribbling something. Speaking for myself, when art stops being fun and starts being a chore, then I stop art. Learning can be fun. People should enjoy doing it rather than dreading having to crank out drawings to please others. Everyone here has an urge to get better at art. All work and no play isn't everyone's way to get there.

    Moving on, ca.org has always provided the tools and some means of getting better. In the past it was the critique center and sub-forums dedicated to learning. Then we had the apprenticeship idea, which seems to have stalled. The atelier was another way to facilitate learning. Next came the videos, and now TAD. Of course some of those cost money. Money doesn't appear out of thin air. The idea that ca.org could exist in it's current incarnation without financial support or costing the user anything is silly. If we stuck to a strictly online environment, this place could be a non-profit utopia. But again, the higher-ups are trying to provide more ways to help people get better. It's not going to come without cost.

    I can't really think of many ways to improve the formula. What we need now is data. We can throw guesses at the wall all day but what would help is something to base ideas on. We need to understand why every single person isn't posting art, and why people aren't critiquing daily. As it stands right now, we assume there's a problem but we don't know what it is besides some interpersonal drama.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

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  42. #178
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    I don't understand "Join Date" or "Post Count". Neither of those are good for anything but potential elitism.

    Some other system of ranking based on contribution in either art posted or critiques would be best.

    Example:
    Critique Button, "This critique was helpful" Check it and: Critique Count: +1
    Post a art piece update:
    Art Images Post Count: +1 (image)

     

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  44. #179
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    Made this Example:

    Attached Images Attached Images  
     

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  46. #180
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    I think a streamline of the user headers would be a good step. Let the art and critiques establish reputation. Remove all the stuff, including the gladiator rankings. Just have avatar and custom line with maybe a link to the person's portfolio under that. So the first thing you'd see under a person's name is their art, not meaningless stats.

    Consolidate the critique center and WIP section.

    Take away stars. It alienates those with little experience despite their applied effort. Also, it turns into a "I like it this much" rating rather than anything based on the merits of the art. I would probably like a picture of robots fighting over a traditional painting of a still life even if the still life was technically better.

    Put a word count minimum on the critique center. We still get tons of "I really like this!" or "That's a good picture!" posts.

    "Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
     

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