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  1. #61
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    Well, for those who have given money to this site, I think it's fair for them to know what's going on and what exactly they are supporting. That doesn't negate the positive aspects of this community, but I don't think that being informed is unproductive.

     

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by algenpfleger View Post
    No it doesn't? Does it give an explanation to why Coro, Marko, Kemp and the others were banned? Does it give an explanation why the not being involved of the MB artists was kept a secret? I don't see any of that in there.
    I think, for the time being at least, that's all there's going to be. People are free to take it however they want, and act accordingly.
    (And, for the record and to avoid misinterpretation, I don't speak in any official capacity for anybody but myself. Outside of my mod status and my ridiculous post count, I don't have any official connection to conceptart.org, much less The Art Department or Massive Black.)


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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapesinspace View Post
    yes it does sound positive. And it does clarify alot (not all)of the messy stuff! it shows that there is a separation between the two organizations. it doesn't get into messy details, it saves face and allows things to start fresher.
    How did it address anything other than stating 'We had separation issues, but it's all good now'? I've already posted my questions in that thread so I won't repost them here, but I read nothing in that statement that concretely defines the exact nature and extent of MB's involvement with TAD right now or in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
    There are so many more productive things to be doing besides snooping into this situation. Try and look at the big picture and see how little this actually affects you.
    This situation greatly impacts individuals set to start TAD or those (previously) considering the program like myself. The first-year TAD student body paid tuition under the premise that certain instructors (many from MB) would be teaching, and now they are receiving a significantly different faculty than what was promoted originally.

     

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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapesinspace View Post
    yeah ignorance is bliss.

    in the grand scheme of things hitler wasn't all bad either(sarcastic). we have better things to do than concern ourselves about oil in the gulf of mexico.
    It had to happen.



     

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    burning chrome said: How did it address anything other than stating 'We had separation issues, but it's all good now'? I've already posted my questions in that thread so I won't repost them here, but I read nothing in that statement that concretely defines the exact nature and extent of MB's involvement with TAD right now or in the near future.


    Here's how it addresses (but does not resolve) those issues:


    >>> We want to assure all constituencies -- students, clients, friends, community members, everyone -- that we are in synch, that all commitments to TAD students will be honored and we recognize that members of our communities may speak their minds from time-to-time and that truthful and lawful communication must be embraced.

    The leadership of TAD, Massive Black and ConceptArt are available to respond to any inquiries and concerns from their respective participants, students and constituencies.

    Onward and upward!

    Chris Hatala
    Coro Kaufman
    Jason Manley



    >>Onward and upward!
    This indicates that the comunique is a starting point.

    So if Jason's promises or advertisements or itinerary for TAD constitute a commitment to students he will honor that. I don't know how he would go about getting Wes or Carl to participate, but there it is..

    "Truthful and lawful communication must be embraced"

    so if Jason has communicated untruthfully or unlawfully in any communication he's not getting hugs.


    there you have it

    Last edited by shapesinspace; July 1st, 2010 at 12:48 PM.
     

  10. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rainville View Post
    Not at all, I expect this discussion will keep going back and forth and it needs to happen. I just want people to seperate Jason and all the other CA members in their minds. All I want to do now is focus on what made CA great; giving and getting advice and guidance in my free time without expecting $$$ to change hands.
    Unfortunately money is ultimately going to have to change hands to support the community in the, probably near, future.

    Instead of constantly upgrading CA with divisions, and new cool toys and whatnot, work out to be put in to streamlining the existing tools and patching up the existing structures.

    The newest additions, and upcoming additions are great to be sure, but they aren't what made CA great. Much of the culture of the site when I arrived is gone now. People pay lip service to it, but in substance it has simply vanished. Now everything is just a competition for front-page space on any of the forums and for people to click the "thanks" button at the bottom of the post, with little contribution to the sub forums and all of the older experienced members are becoming inactive or simply leaving. They are leaving for a reason, to be sure, but ultimately it's resulting in the culture of the site stagnating and becoming incestuous. New-comers rarely respect the traditions of the site, and lack the experience to provide thoughtful feedback, although not for lack of trying.

    This is the reason I don't post art anymore, and don't do much critiquing anymore.

    That's not to say that I don't want to, or don't care, because I spend a lot of time thinking about how to restore some of the lost greatness of the site. And make no mistake, a huge member population doesn't equal automatic greatness. Ask China about that one.

    I think people are leaving because they are tired of the apparent downward spiral the site is in, and being bullied around when they speak up loudly about it.

    I'm in awe that Coro is gone. I didn't know this! Why is he gone? I saw the thread recently about why Marko is gone, and I remember way back when, when Hurricane was banned and that was a hot topic, but I didn't know all the others were gone (I guess that's because I usually haunt the wrong parts of the forums for that sort of information).

    This place has become more of a social networking site with pretty pictures than a place dedicated to the serious study of an ancient and highly difficult trade.

    The only people who get much attention are the ones who make an enormous splash when they jump in the pool with eye-popping gorgeous art, or have 5 stars next to their threads, and all those who come here scratching for knowledge are grudgingly fed tidbits of re-recycled hints and tips with none of the personal attention that members shared with each other in older times. Or even worse, simply told to go buy Jason Chan's new DVD! In that case what's the point of the site at all as a place for studying art? If I as a fledgling artist am always told to go and do my own research about how to do this, or how to do that then what's the point of joining and sharing at all? So people can high-five me when I bust out a new badass painting with my new, updated photoshop and my expensive new tablet?

    There has been a disturbing trend in which the way people respond to inquiries and instead of critiquing the art of the questioner, people critique the person himself and lambast him or her for failing to know that they shouldn't ask questions here, instead they should go to the bookstore/library/downloads section, read everything they wanted to ask about or get critiqued on AND THEN come back and ask the question, after they already know it, just to have it re-affirmed in their minds via ass pats in the 'it's finally finished' forum, and if it's not up to par for that board? send them back from whence they came of course! If they are confused why their stuff isn't good enough, just flame the shit out of them in the lounge instead of visiting their sketchbook and giving them constructive criticism with maybe even a pinch of sarcasm to round things out and push their drive to improve a bit.

    Man. I just gave myself a headache pointing out some of the things that I find wrong with the current incarnation of the site (as I'm sure many might agree with), AND gave myself heartache for the gone days when inter-artist camaraderie was the law of the land, and mutual development as people and as artists was it's currency.

    Last edited by Sepulverture; July 1st, 2010 at 01:12 PM.
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  12. #67
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    Sepulverture- since the "thank you" button is greatly abused for anything I just want to reply and tell you: Thanks for that post man, seriously!

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  14. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig D View Post
    Maybe you should take your own advice.

    Ordering people around and telling them what they can think is hardly
    minding your own business.
    I'm going to assume you're to stupid to know what a troll is.

     

  15. #69
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    I think Sepulverture captured my view better than I could. That was wonderful!

    I'm here to learn. I don't have a lot of money and I don't have a lot of time to hang out with people who joke and prod others - so for me I want to see learning happening... and I'm seeing less and less of it as the big artists are either pushed out or get tired and leave. That is a huge concern for me. It is a free site, and I am beyond grateful for that - I have absorbed so much information over the last few years, even just lurking through much of it.... but now we almost HAVE to purchase videos just to get that same information now.

    I'm sad to hear of the TAD and Massive Black issues, and for what it's worth - I don't care about secrecy and I know that am not entitled to information about things that do not impact my artwork..... but now it's starting to encroach on that as people disappear. It shouldn't have to be our business, but it's getting there if we can't learn because of it.

     

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  17. #70
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    For what it's worth I love the videos and recommend them. And I like the Thanks feature and the tags. The downloads are relatively cheap, and full of great information, and it's nice to see a subject presented in greater length and depth than you could get in a forum post. They're also a great teachers' resource.

    I agree with Sepulvultura in the core mission of the site, and it seems to me the answer is simple - just be the person you'd like to see on this site. People need advice? Give them advice. That's what I do. Maybe I don't post in the crit section so often, because I don't really feel qualified. But I post in sketchbooks, and I help anytime people ask for it. I've never left a request PM unanswered.

    My worst fear now is all the people I used to know and like will leave or be banned, and I'll feel like I'm starting over. Or even worse, the site staff/founders could get sick of all this and just kill the site. I hope that doesn't happen, and I hope some of the bannings of longtime members/contributors will be reversed.

     

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  19. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    For what it's worth I love the videos and recommend them. And I like the Thanks feature and the tags. The downloads are relatively cheap, and full of great information, and it's nice to see a subject presented in greater length and depth than you could get in a forum post. They're also a great teachers' resource.

    I agree with Sepulvultura in the core mission of the site, and it seems to me the answer is simple - just be the person you'd like to see on this site. People need advice? Give them advice. That's what I do. Maybe I don't post in the crit section so often, because I don't really feel qualified. But I post in sketchbooks, and I help anytime people ask for it. I've never left a request PM unanswered.

    cut cut
    To be sure TA. This is why I always stop to read comments you make in any thread I happen to be looking in where you've posted. I respect you as a member of the site, and enjoy reading much of what you have to say because there seems to be a genuine spark of passion and interest in what you have to say.

    The same goes for many of the wonderful people here. I still come to the site because I still hold the belief that there is a core group of artists and members capable of restoring the site to it's proper place, and want to do my part. This is what motivated me to want to help moderate the tutorials forum (fat lot of good that has done so far... but I am trying).

    As for the thanks, and videos and whatnot. None of these are inherently bad, but they are abused and given undue prestige. I have also downloaded more than a couple of the dvd's there and have absorbed a wealth of knowledge from them. Don't misunderstand my generalized denouncement of those things, but understand that their uses are limited and don't replace many things.

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  21. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tengu nz View Post
    Is this place falling apart ???????
    You've been here since 2008. You know what's been going on. You've managed to get this thread to 3 pages...and I commenting about it.

    *golf clap* Good trolling.

    5/10

     

  22. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmalidore View Post
    I think Sepulverture captured my view better than I could. That was wonderful!

    I'm here to learn. I don't have a lot of money and I don't have a lot of time to hang out with people who joke and prod others - so for me I want to see learning happening... and I'm seeing less and less of it as the big artists are either pushed out or get tired and leave. That is a huge concern for me. It is a free site, and I am beyond grateful for that - I have absorbed so much information over the last few years, even just lurking through much of it.... but now we almost HAVE to purchase videos just to get that same information now.

    I'm sad to hear of the TAD and Massive Black issues, and for what it's worth - I don't care about secrecy and I know that am not entitled to information about things that do not impact my artwork..... but now it's starting to encroach on that as people disappear. It shouldn't have to be our business, but it's getting there if we can't learn because of it.
    There are so many talented professional that are still active in the forum/sketchbook area.

    I think CA for a while has been trying to move into a new direction. It is obvious through TAD, Illustration Academy, and VLP that the doors are being prepared and opened to be more inclusive to a wider range of talent and art.

    I think we are judging and making these grand assumptions based on what in truth are things that are very complicated.

    A lot of these people who have left or been banned are in a lot of ways are connected and by their actions, words, or differenced left. Its not about accusation but realize that there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with views and goals.

    It really sickens me how much demonizing has be going on around here. I think the truth is that we fail to realize that our opinions are roughly ignorant as most of the people who have left, been banned, or had their accounts deleted have remained quiet discrete.

    I think alot of people are inquiring, prodding, ect because they are hoping to find some secret or dirt, rather than trying to improve the quality of our community. And ill be the first to say that it's really sheisty.

    I dont think that there is anything wrong with expressing opinions and views. But i hold that there are way so doing so that are proactive and positive rather than trying to beat down others. We treat this place like it's Hollywoood, and as if these people are celebrities. But they arnt, and it is not.

    We falsely claim stake to personal, private, and business matters and try to audit as if we expect to gain something in the process.

    I think that the true tragedy is not so much that there is some evil king corrupting our forum, but that there are just trouble starters in general who use any opportunity to make shallow statements and inquiries.

    This is such a shame, and i hope we all realize that if we dont (as a community) begin to create the change we want to see within ourselves, that WE become the corrosiveness that we claim others to be.

    I think it reflects poorly on our community, and our industry. and more than likely the same problems will transfer to CGhub at some point, and wherever else we go.

    In general im not taking side because i truthfully think that none of us really know anything about what is really going on and that most of our response has been due to gossip, propaganda, and fear.

     

  23. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolbbq View Post
    cut cut cut

    In general im not taking side because i truthfully think that none of us really know anything about what is really going on and that most of our response has been due to gossip, propaganda, and fear.
    having been here for four years, made awesome friends, and seen amazing artists go by the wayside I feel sufficiently qualified to say that it's not propaganda or fear that is driving people to speak out. Some of it yes, but scoping out from the details and examining the big picture over a long period of time there there has been a major decline in the community, and it MUST be discussed, and people MUST agree to work together to improve the situation, because we are making our own beds and there will come a time when we will have to sleep in them.

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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sepulverture View Post
    having been here for four years, made awesome friends, and seen amazing artists go by the wayside I feel sufficiently qualified to say that it's not propaganda or fear that is driving people to speak out. Some of it yes, but scoping out from the details and examining the big picture over a long period of time there there has been a major decline in the community, and it MUST be discussed, and people MUST agree to work together to improve the situation, because we are making our own beds and there will come a time when we will have to sleep in them.
    I made my first account here 5 years ago (waterman). So ive been around long enough to see the progression. Ive seen everything.

    My opinion still remains the same.

     

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolbbq View Post
    I made my first account here 5 years ago (waterman). So ive been around long enough to see the progression. Ive seen everything.

    My opinion still remains the same.
    And that's entirely ok. We each experience the site in our own unique ways. It's a shame though that many people have experienced it differently than you have, and in such a way as to lead them to collectively come to this point in our relationship as co-members of the site.

    Gloominati - Thanks for taking the time

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  28. #77
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    I dont have a problem with anyone personally. Im just annoyed thats all.

    if people dont like it they should just make up their mind a leave or whatever. But all i see is just a bunch of people who would rather stick around and start drama rather than just go to CGhub or whatever...

    I guess ive always just been a person to think that if i don't like something then it doesn't even deserve my words cause at the end of the day if i get upset, that effects me, not them.


    I am dedicated to sticking around and i do hope and pray that responsible members will rise up to do things that will actually create change in the forums rather than propagate uncertainty.
    It is my honest belief that it is in our hands to create the environment we want around here. And it is management who gives us the reigns.

    We have allowed the forums to become what it is. Even if there was some evil tyrant running things, i hardly doubt he would choose to create such chaos....no that was us...that was all us. It isn't so much what has been happening, but our responses.

    I hope that Jason does release CA 4.0 soon, so that we can get that influx of new creatives from the illustration/-world. I think the sparseness of this place only contributes to uneasiness.

    But im done with this thread, i hope you all get whatever it is you are looking for...


    Last edited by JakehC; July 1st, 2010 at 02:12 PM.
     

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  30. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    My worst fear now is all the people I used to know and like will leave or be banned, and I'll feel like I'm starting over. Or even worse, the site staff/founders could get sick of all this and just kill the site. I hope that doesn't happen, and I hope some of the bannings of longtime members/contributors will be reversed.
    Art forums seem to have a natural lifecycle. As the community grows, splintering tends to happen - whether a group of members feels like the community is the wrong direction, or the site is being run badly - it's almost inevitable. However, if CA, along with previous incarnations of art forums like eatpoo and sijun are any precedent, likeminded people will manage to band together. If this place alienates its most valuable members, they'll likely group together somewhere else. Whether everyone else will be able to find them is another matter though.

    The value of CA lies primarily in its community. That is, a handful of incredibly skilled people, a lot of hardworking people refining their own skills, and a load of bullshitters like me, half-lurking (though I'm working on it!). The leadership of the site has provided some invaluable services, and CA has done more than many others in fostering learning among students. However, the spirit of CA can't survive solely as an enterprise, and alienating top talent and personal contributors (that is, not those who only come here to post promotional material, but took a personal interest in the community and contribute regularly, and often) will in the long term hurt this place more than benefit.

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by lolbbq View Post

    ]i truthfully think that none of us really know anything about what is really going on and that most of our response has been due to gossip, propaganda, and fear.
    yeah that might be even right but GOD DAMNIT!! The names of the persons which have been banned or left on their own are here in this thread for about a million times. You know the names, go write an e-mail, they'll answer, and you will problably be informed enough to know what's going on.
    I did so and now I know everything I need to know to doubt if I ever want to upload anything to this site again. It's not about the people which are around here (even if I wished that some of the pros over here would start doing what they used to do about 3 years ago: helping aspiring artists!) , it's much more about one persons (the one who built CA) ideology which probably brought me to drawing and the FACT THAT IT NOW TURNS OUT that all this is just fucked up, has always been and probably will always be.
    It's not that this site is full of shit, it's about the fact that I just do not feel comfortable to be here anymore or at least that this forum has lost everything "special" to me now and has become just one place to post something, just like Deviantart (yes I said it )

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    lolbbq

    my posts here have been motivated by my personal experience as a consumer of tad/mb/ca products and my dissatisfaction with the disconnect between what is advertised and what is and how it is presented to that consumer. (I have no issue with the quality of any of the instruction, most of it has been more than excellent)

    I have been duped, brushed off, and misled by statements made by the president of tad and I am sharing this with this thread because I feel my information may contribute to an awareness that something needs to change. Obviously others are having similar experiences and rather than going away mad and not engaging with TAD and CA anymore we are asking for these types of issues to be addressed. Yeah it's ugly at times, but this is the lounge.

    If persistent issues are regularly deleted and swept under the rug, tension grows and becomes more widespread. If people with issues are vocal, then there is a possibility that those issues will be addressed and put right in the future.

    I'm sorry if some of our directness has offended you or you have taken it as caustic, but I assure you my intent here is to help iron these concerns out, and it seems to me that the other posters on this thread have positive intentions as well. If these threads seem like skipping records it may just be that it is because we have not yet reached a satisfactory resolution to our similar concerns. Even if this thread is deleted, I hope that the feedback helps to correct some of these public relation issues.

     

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  36. #81
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    Wow. I leave CA for a couple of weeks and come back to this.
    I don't have much in put to put into the thread but with all my heart I really, really, really hope CA survives through this and everything works out again.

    Losing everthing and everyone on this site would be like losing the most inspiring person in my life. This site made me realise what could be possible and the great people in it have helped me mature.

    Let's just see how it goes

     

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  38. #82
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    To all you guys saying that there's nothing going on here, just email the affected artists like Gloominati said. They'll be happy to fill you in. What I learned pissed me off, and leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I totally agree with Gloominati on all accounts. Once you learn the truth you won't really want to be on here anymore.

     

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  40. #83
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    The persons that left/were banned still have a great deal of information through their personal websites and media tutorials.

     

  41. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdejong View Post
    To all you guys saying that there's nothing going on here, just email the affected artists like Gloominati said. They'll be happy to fill you in. What I learned pissed me off, and leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I totally agree with Gloominati on all accounts. Once you learn the truth you won't really want to be on here anymore.
    Could you and Gloomi PM me with the details?

    I'm curious but at the same time intimidated to actually send an e-mail to industry professionals

     

  42. #85
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    TASmith is offline Registered User Level 16 Gladiator: Spartacus' Retiarii
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    "Once you learn the truth you won't really want to be on here anymore."

    Then I'd rather not know.

    Sepulverture, thank you very much!

    I just want to add, I'm sure there are lots of valid points on both sides of whatever hidden argument I don't even know about. All I can say from my perspective is that I want to thank everyone who brought this place together including Jason Manley, and even some people I don't really get along with such as Kev Ferrera, who I've learned so much from.

    This site's been a source of inspiration which helped me get through some pretty dark times I don't really like to talk about - mostly the b.s. I experienced while paying a fortune on graduate school. This is where I go to keep my dreams alive when there's no where else. And, if this sounds like ass kissing, I just want to point out this is a situation where everyone involved deserves it.

    Enough, off to work!

    Last edited by TASmith; July 1st, 2010 at 03:58 PM.
     

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  44. #86
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    Surion is offline Just chasin' my dreams Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
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    my opinion about this?

    Big lack of respect thats all..
    I don't have a clear sight of what happened here, but i've read through most of this thread, and I also have been active on CA for some years.

    Don't lie to other people, respect every artist out there, respect the time they're putting into their art, and respect their will to improve. Do just that, and what you will have is an awesome community connected and helping each other.

    In my opinion, ca has gone to commercial in the last few year. I'm looking at the banner and see the big artists lined up. (don't get me wrong, they are all great artist) Did they have to pay for that spot or is it hand picked by admin? I have no idea, and maybe there is a logical explanation but what i do know is that there are tons of awesome artists out there who're not in the list. Get rid of the banner don't advertise anyone. Thats just being corrupt in some way. just be a helpful community and if you're respecting to other people and helping other people out and youre improving yourself, well,.. you'll have the best advertising and personal satisfaction there is in the world.

    Don't be sending around like spam for the next live session or whatever. Don't advertise for the new dvd's because actually, they have nothing to do with ca.org. When you click the link you go to massive black page..

    Just my two cents. This is what i think about all this. Maybe i'm wrong about some stuff I don't know, but this IS my opinion, and I am most certain a lot of people share it with me.

    Don't get me wrong, CA is an AWESOME community, with loads of awesome ppl around here. And thanks to EVERY SINGLE PERSON contributing in a positive way. You guys are all one by one awesome people. Thanks guys

    Last edited by Surion; July 1st, 2010 at 03:28 PM.
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  46. #87
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    I never weighed in on these issues, for a reason, any malcontent or grievances we had fell on deaf ears and worse.
    I left instead and went ahead with some people to make my own community, which I don't care to publicize because it's already in the know.

    CA started as a great place, a long time ago, somewhere along the way, egos got in the way.

    I hope that the conversation continues, tyrants never last too long.

    But don't take everything face-value, there's a lot of shit that's been spilling outside CA and it's definitely not imaginary.
    You have to be an idiot to just accept that everything is fine.

    Last edited by skullsquid; July 1st, 2010 at 03:31 PM.
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  48. #88
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    Edit: In light of a recent phone call, I am putting down my guns, so to speak, in hopes that this may all be resolved.

    Last edited by Mock; July 1st, 2010 at 04:29 PM.
     

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  50. #89
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    A lot of things that go on with CA, TAD, and MB are none of my business and don't even interest me. But when all of this "turmoil" (for lack of a better word) trickles down into the forums it does make me think about leaving. I don't like posting in a place where I know that if I ever really had a problem with anything I had better keep my damn mouth shut.

     

  51. #90
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    I think the lounge should just go bye bye.

    Strip this shit down bare bones! If you don't post a sketchbook update within 2 weeks(5 star book exceptions), your account's deleted! Gone, fool!

     

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