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  1. #1
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    Have some Political Rumor Mongering with your Coffee

    So, if you haven't read it yet, this article: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...RS_show_page=0

    Got the US leader in Afghanistan fired... all I can say is Wow.....


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    Well Obama is the Commander In Chief so you don't diss him.
    On the other hand Obama is somewhat clueless in this matter. However, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

    Also iirc he handed his resignation too. If Obama let it go, it would weaken his position too.

    So it was:

    "I quit"
    "You can't quit, you're fired".

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    Well Obama is the Commander In Chief so you don't diss him.
    I don't really think that was the isshue. To act on something like that just makes Obama look insecure. I think the move was more focused on secureing "allies" for the Middle east, however it still makes the white house look desprite. Either way, it doesn't look good.

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    political distraction!
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    For the people who are saying that Obama was doing this just to save face or to get back at the general... that's really not the issue here. This has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with the military. I would expect any president to fire or at the very least seriously reprimand any general whom talked in such a manner. A general can't insult or question the authority of the commander in chief (Obama). This is a case of a sort of insubordination to a superior officer, which in a case like this should result in the dismissal of the offending officer. A general that publicly disagrees with the superior officer is acting in a manner that is irresponsible and weakens the authority of the commander in chief. I don't care if the president is Republican, Democrat, or what-have-you; the authority of the commander in chief should never be brought into question in such a manner by a general.

    There honestly shouldn't be debate here, this has nothing to do with free-speech. Once you are part of the military, you give up your right to speak out against the President.

    Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice:
    "Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleverdart View Post
    I don't really think that was the isshue. To act on something like that just makes Obama look insecure. I think the move was more focused on secureing "allies" for the Middle east, however it still makes the white house look desprite. Either way, it doesn't look good.
    No that is the issue. It doesn't matter which president was in office. Comments like that get you fired.

    Unfair isn't it? I remember something similar happening around the Clinton administration too specially because of the Lewinsky incident.

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    No that is the issue. It doesn't matter which president was in office. Comments like that get you fired.
    Yea, I have to agree with you after reading cdejong's post.

    I'll have to think about this more.

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    Obama is looking more and more to me like Jimmy Carter - book smart but a weak leader. The Military obviously disdains him and this interview shows they have no respect for him or his cabinet.

    Clinton delt with the same problem, but back then all the top brass pretty well kept it under wraps.

    The ironic beauty of this is that Mccrystal voted for Obama. Ouch.

    Why in the hell America is shedding blood and treasure over there in the first place a full 10 years after 911 is beyond the pale.

    Imagine being a soldier thousands of miles from home and being forced to risk your life for that criminal Karzai and his hell-hole of a country. I don't think this is what the founding fathers had in mind for America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnDirtyApe View Post
    Obama is looking more and more to me like Jimmy Carter - book smart but a weak leader. The Military obviously disdains him and this interview shows they have no respect for him or his cabinet.

    Clinton delt with the same problem, but back then all the top brass pretty well kept it under wraps.

    The ironic beauty of this is that Mccrystal voted for Obama. Ouch.

    Why in the hell America is shedding blood and treasure over there in the first place a full 10 years after 911 is beyond the pale.

    Imagine being a soldier thousands of miles from home and being forced to risk your life for that criminal Karzai and his hell-hole of a country. I don't think this is what the founding fathers had in mind for America.
    It's an albatross around Obama's neck.

    The way you lose a counter-insurgency campaign is to quit because it's too expensive and the body politic is tired of this expense and the blood-letting.

    But, if Obama signs off on a precipitous withdrawal, we'll be hearing that "the Democrats lost Afghanistan" for the rest of American history.

    And, unlike Truman's China, Afghanistan is really on the Democrats' watch to lose.

    But, hey, I'd be willing to see the USA cut its losses at the Democrats' expense-- 'cause I utterly hate both the Parties anyway!

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    Regardless of McChrystal's words, or those of his aides, the main blunder here is:

    1. the Obama administration put people in charge there who were at odds with each other, creating rivalries.
    2. The people who should be working together to make Afghanistan a success are more concerned about their own political careers, and covering their asses.
    3. Our efforts in Afghanistan seem guaranteed to fail at this point, but failure isn't an option. Everyone says that Al Queda has moved. We did that. We leave, and they come right back. However hated we might be now in Afghanistan, if we leave and further betray their trust, what will happen next time around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnDirtyApe View Post
    Obama is looking more and more to me like Jimmy Carter - book smart but a weak leader. The Military obviously disdains him and this interview shows they have no respect for him or his cabinet.
    What a load of reflexive, right-wing copypasta BS...

    If anything, it's McCrystal who has the reputation as a softy who's impairing the ability of the troops in the field to get the job done. Don't believe me? Well, try this one on for size:

    Young officers and enlisted soldiers and Marines, typically speaking on the condition of anonymity to protect their jobs, speak of “being handcuffed,” of not being trusted by their bosses and of being asked to battle a canny and vicious insurgency “in a fair fight.”

    Some rules meant to enshrine counterinsurgency principles into daily practices, they say, do not merely transfer risks away from civilians. They transfer risks away from the Taliban.

    Before the rules were tightened, one Army major who had commanded an infantry company said, “firefights in Afghanistan had a half-life.” By this he meant that skirmishes often were brief, lasting roughly a half-hour. The Taliban would ambush patrols and typically break contact and slip away as patrol leaders organized and escalated Western firepower in response.

    Now, with fire support often restricted, or even idled, Taliban fighters seem noticeably less worried about an American response, many soldiers and Marines say. Firefights often drag on, sometimes lasting hours, and costing lives. The United States’ material advantages are not robustly applied; troops are engaged in rifle-on-rifle fights on their enemy’s turf.
    From the New York Times via MSNBC.

    And I'm a little curious how Obama's "weak" leadership is reflected in his decision to give McCrystal the troops he needed, stepping up drone attacks on al-Qaeda/Taliban leadership, retaining the highly respected Defense Secretary Robert Gates from Dubya's term, and then today, replacing this waffling loudmouth with David Petraeus, another highly respected Vet who was critical to squaring most of the Iraq mess away. Perhaps you can expand on how any of this constitutes "weak"...

    McCrystal is the John Meyer of the US Army...a blowhard showboat with a habit of putting his foot in his mouth every time he opens it, especially to any journalist in the vicinity. Obama did the right thing, and the GOP is going to get no free political mileage on their frequent flyer card out of this one, although I'd wager money on him making the rounds as a political "martyr" with a tell-all on the bookshelves by year's end.
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    Afghanistan will never be a successful endeavor. You know we're paying groups that fund the Taliban to fight the Taliban?

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    I can't believe Obana is buying into the COIN doctrine. Whatta maroon.
    Even though I voted for Obama last time he won't get my vote twice. He has failed on too many issues; he isn't strong enough to lead. No public option for health care, no real bank reform, another bail out, failed with gays in the military, totally wrong on the oil energy issue and is backpedalling on ending the wars. I won't vote for him unless that idiot Palin is running against him then I'll have to hold my nose and give him a second chance.

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    I wonder if we replaced Obama with Bush would people say the same things about the General?

    That being said, my first statement stands. Don't diss the Commander-In-Chief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I can't believe Obana is buying into the COIN doctrine. Whatta maroon.
    Even though I voted for Obama last time he won't get my vote twice. He has failed on too many issues; he isn't strong enough to lead. No public option for health care, no real bank reform, another bail out, failed with gays in the military, totally wrong on the oil energy issue and is backpedalling on ending the wars. I won't vote for him unless that idiot Palin is running against him then I'll have to hold my nose and give him a second chance.
    The health care issue isn't his fault, it was congress and companies fear mongering to consumers.

    Congress is a mess but we as the people tend to keep voting the same idiots back in therefore being part of this insanity. I know this to be especially true in the case of California where the state is just unmanageable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I can't believe Obana is buying into the COIN doctrine. Whatta maroon.
    Even though I voted for Obama last time he won't get my vote twice. He has failed on too many issues; he isn't strong enough to lead. No public option for health care, no real bank reform, another bail out, failed with gays in the military, totally wrong on the oil energy issue and is backpedalling on ending the wars. I won't vote for him unless that idiot Palin is running against him then I'll have to hold my nose and give him a second chance.
    Okay, so we'll exclude the charming lady in the center of this montage, then...

    Have some Political Rumor Mongering with your Coffee

    Now, let's go down your list with the remaining contestants...

    • Public Option on Health Care reform (or any Reform at all)?
    • Bank Reform?
    • Not giving handouts and tax cuts to giant corporations (AKA "bail outs")?
    • Equal treatment of gays in the military?
    • Cracking down on the oil industry?


    All righty then...I just tallied up their combined scores and it exactly matches the number of unicorns I've seen today. You might have better results, depending on how close to Jesus you think St. Ron Paul is...

    Maybe Ralph Nader's still available?
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    I think you guys forget that just because hes the president hes not god, he should be criticized, that might not be the best way of going about it, But Obama is not a military leader, leader if that. Hes like Bush 2.0 only with a mask on. Hes not doing a good job. lol this whole BP oil spill yea, hes doing a great job, man he should get another noble peace prize for his amazing actions
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdejong View Post
    For the people who are saying that Obama was doing this just to save face or to get back at the general... that's really not the issue here. This has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with the military. I would expect any president to fire or at the very least seriously reprimand any general whom talked in such a manner. A general can't insult or question the authority of the commander in chief (Obama). This is a case of a sort of insubordination to a superior officer, which in a case like this should result in the dismissal of the offending officer. A general that publicly disagrees with the superior officer is acting in a manner that is irresponsible and weakens the authority of the commander in chief. I don't care if the president is Republican, Democrat, or what-have-you; the authority of the commander in chief should never be brought into question in such a manner by a general.

    There honestly shouldn't be debate here, this has nothing to do with free-speech. Once you are part of the military, you give up your right to speak out against the President.

    Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice:
    "Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

    this
    "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
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    He's a President, not an engineer with magical superpowers.
    Does the American public think he should swim down and plug the hole with his finger??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig D View Post
    He's a President, not an engineer with magical superpowers.
    Does the American public think he should swim down and plug the hole with his finger??
    Considering people think that the microbes are the solution to a still continuing leak of 2.5 million gallons a day...what do you think?

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    The change was made quickly and surely because we have more important things to worry about. The general deserves to go just for his naivete in regards to the media.

    Obama is a smart man, but looks to be going through a steep learning curve, both politically, with the media, and regarding the reality of governing a superpower. And he has weak advisors, and a weak VP. He's nicer than he is smart, and that's a problem. He actually needs a Dick Cheney around him, someone who really knows how power operates and how much like a knife fight geopolitics is.

    Never hire a boy for a man's job, as the saying goes. And never hire a man for a man's job if an authentic son of a bitch is also available.

    Next time, I'm voting for a son of a bitch for president. I just hope there's one on the ticket.
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    I understand he isn't a superhero but Roosevelt was able to put banking restrictions in place that lasted seventy five years. He put the money for the rebuilding of America into the hands of the people who needed it not multi national corporations. Obama had the opportunity to reinstate just a few banking and stock rules and failed to do so.
    The health care thing is a fiasco, requiring people to buy insurance but not putting things in place to make it worthwhile for them.
    He could have signed an executive order for gays but no he's a coward. Bush signed more executive orders than all of the previous presidents combined; he was a locust in a business suit but he wasn't a coward when it came to his convictions. Too bad he hurt America.
    Afghanistan is a ClusterF##k we didn't learn anything from the Russians so we are condemned to repeat their failure and Obama has bought into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    I understand he isn't a superhero but Roosevelt was able to put banking restrictions in place that lasted seventy five years. He put the money for the rebuilding of America into the hands of the people who needed it not multi national corporations. Obama had the opportunity to reinstate just a few banking and stock rules and failed to do so.
    That's some nice Monday-morning quarterbacking, and leaving aside the fact that FDR was in power for 3 1/2 terms and wasn't contending with a Republican minority in the process of setting a record for filibusters, you failed to answer my question: who is this dream candidate of yours that's going to enact all those changes you outlined earlier? Maybe you're hoping Hillary will challenge Obama in he 2012 primary (the wife of the guy who allowed the repeal of a number of those same banking restrictions)?

    There's ideals, and there's reality, and I'm getting a little weary of too many of my leftist peers retreating from the latter and pontificating about the former. Change is only overnight in revolutions and dictatorships, and idealists tend to wind up against the wall in either situation.
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    There is no answer to your question because no one is running for office yet. A fact you seem to have overlooked. Plus I dont think most of the people you put up have a chance. I'd like to see Mark Warner run or maybe Scott Brown but I need more info on them that only an election will bring to light.
    Also I'm no liberal (if you couldn't tell) I vote for people who I think wil get the job done I don't care if they are democrat or republican unless they are idiots or idealogues. While Obama meets that criteria he is mostly ineffective with a majority in the house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    There is no answer to your question because no one is running for office yet. A fact you seem to have overlooked. Plus I dont think most of the people you put up have a chance. I'd like to see Mark Warner run or maybe Scott Brown but I need more info on them that only an election will bring to light.
    Whether anyone's running or not, there's always a field of candidates in contention. And if you're waiting for the election season to flesh out their positions, that's a little backwards...it's their political track records that matter, not how many babies they kiss or (in Scott Brown's case) whether he drives to one of his five homes in the endearingly weathered pickup truck he proudly displayed in his Senate ads (the truck, not the homes).

    Also I'm no liberal (if you couldn't tell) I vote for people who I think wil get the job done I don't care if they are democrat or republican unless they are idiots or idealogues. While Obama meets that criteria he is mostly ineffective with a majority in the house.
    My apologies...your concern for gay rights in the military threw me a curve. Given that one party is okay with their serving openly, and the other still has a vocal contingent that considers them hellbound sodomites a step removed from pedophiles and horse-rapists, it skewed my assessment of your political footing a bit.

    In any case, I'm not here to pick a fight, just a little curious about the sort of thinking that goes on behind some of these noisy objections I'm hearing to Obama's imperfect-but-hardly-disastrous term. As with any criticism, a quick game of "20 questions" (not that 20 are typically necessary) is sufficient to determine if the complaints are in fact valid and legitimately grounded, or impulsive and superficial.
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    The problem is the BP spill is Obama's Katrina - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/201006...s/ynews_pl2821

    I think at the beginning he did handle it poorly. His mistake in this case was not looking like he was all over it in the beginning. I don't think people were expecting Superman (I certainly wasn't) but I think the idea he seemed to have not on site or caring is where people become disenfranchised.

    Obama's thinking was - leave this to the companies who know the most about drilling...the oil companies. This isn't exactly an illogical path. Obama is no deep sea driller.

    However, you have the people already upset with the big corporations so when if Obama wasn't loud and obnoxious about it - the people felt he was taking BP's side.

    What's funny are other things going on with Obama. He's loud about Arizona's law on illegal immigration (which other states already have on their books). However, he's also sending a lot of National Guard over there, while talking about immigration reform. The other part of that while he's blabbing about giving it, no law has been introduced (which is because it will be struck down or rejected in this bad economy).

    So he is coming off wish washy. Granted, I don't want to be in his shoes and in addition members of congress are working against him (not to mention congress is a mess anyways).
    Last edited by Arshes Nei; June 25th, 2010 at 02:22 PM.

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    "not to mention congress is a mess anyways"

    This. What we need is to elect 500 more Obamas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    The problem is the BP spill is Obama's Katrina - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/201006...s/ynews_pl2821
    What I find interesting about your assessment--which is probably a fairly accurate reflection of the public at large--is that it's not empirically based, but mainly perceptual. This hints at a larger problem I've noted with Americans in recent years, especially amongst the younger generation: an absence of logical, critically-based thought processes grounded in data and facts as opposed to hearsay and hype.

    There also seems to be a total confusion about how the US government even functions...the Presidency is only a single branch, and limited in scope, as the Founding Fathers designed it to be. It's amusing to see how the blame is continually dumped on Obama's shoulders when the constitutional limitations of his office invariably kick in and he's unable to proceed against the will of a Republican minority in Congress...who are the obstructing force and ultimate source of most of his "shortcomings". Yet, again and again, I'm hearing how it's his fault that he cannot push past their intransigence, and next to no complaints about the opposition's stubbornness itself!

    The average American's understanding of their own governmental system seems to be on par with their understanding of a professional wrestling match, complete with a cowering, sexually-charged admiration for a "bad boy" opponent who has next to none of their interests at heart...
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    Obama, did the right thing - really the only thing he could have done with the general. It's not about insecurity nor is it about making him look strong. It's just plain and simple military disciple/NJP. A commanding officer cannot insult the commander in chief (on record) or allow his subordinates to do so. The higher the officer the more that rule must be adhered to. It's all about order and respect of the chain of command. I served in the military - two tours. Those who have served or who are serving now totally got the memo on what the president had to do. A few civilians who have never paid attention to the military code of honor or haven't served unfortunately don't get it.

    On another note what do people want Obama to do, fly down the gulf and personally suck the oil out of the ocean. The man has been cool calm and collective from day one. Folks saying Obama hasn't been engaged are not being fair or haven't been paying attention since 08.
    Last edited by artmessiah; June 25th, 2010 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TASmith View Post
    "not to mention congress is a mess anyways"

    This. What we need is to elect 500 more Obamas.
    Why have 500 struggling first term senators, when you can just abolish congress and make Obama "Dear Leader."

    And then we can pass out balloons, and have parades, and sing songs together.

    Oh, how perfect everything would be! And we can have a law that BP pays for every artist's health care... even if they suck! Yay!!
    At least Icarus tried!


    My Process: Dead Rider Graphic Novel (Dark Horse Comics) plus oil paintings, pencils and other goodies:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=101106

    My "Smilechild" Music. Plus a medley of Commercial Music Cues and a Folksy Jingle!:
    http://www.myspace.com/kevferrara

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