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  1. #1
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    Israel's boarding of six aid ship flotilla to Gaza results in death of 20

    Here's a link to the full story :

    Link

    I wonder what Turkey will do.....
    Last edited by Brashen; June 7th, 2010 at 09:30 PM.


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    The group that organized the flotilla, The Turkish IHH (Islan Haklary Ve Hurriyetleri Vakfi in Turkish), is a terrorist organization according to the United States. And Turkey's prime minister is a former Islamist.

    If you've been paying any attention to Turkey over the last 10 years, you'll have seen a slouch towards it's historically Islamic roots. It's secular military is the only thing that's kept it remotely oriented towards Europe.

    Turkey should be kicked out of NATO once America leaves Iraq and Afghanistan. They're useless and the current government works against Western interest. And let's not forget how blatantly hypocritical the Turks are(Cypress, The Kurds, The Armenians.)

    Israel should just sink the next ship. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.





    Last edited by Elam; June 1st, 2010 at 09:35 PM.

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    I like it that israel isn't afraid to fight back.

    So.... America get's attacked once and we go to all out no restraint war.

    Israel is constantly attacked and they can't fight back?

    Seriously, if israel wants to end their troubles...they should just go to war (they have a nice army!) and attack their terrorists (who are worse than bin-ladin! who openly attack their country every day! No one is claiming that Hammas isn't a terrorist group).

    If America was in Israels place, Hammas would have the entire US army on their doorstep killing anything that moves.

    Israel needs to stop playing nicely ><

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    My understanding is that this was an unarmed ship carrying foreign aid flying the flag of a NATO nation in international waters. I don't see how anyone could justify attacking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elam View Post
    Israel should just sink the next ship. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
    Terrible idea, to say the least. The Israeli response was fairly commensurate, and they'll shrug off all the global condemnation over the long run, same as they always do.

    Storming the ships was an iffy proposition, but fortunately for the Israelis, they covered their butts by having cameras at the ready, and the activists severely undercut the whole "Gandhi approach" by slugging the commandos. I don't know many police officers who'd hold their fire in that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivory_Oasis
    Seriously, if israel wants to end their troubles...they should just go to war (they have a nice army!) and attack their terrorists (who are worse than bin-ladin! who openly attack their country every day! No one is claiming that Hammas isn't a terrorist group).
    Worse than bin Laden?! Refresh my memory...at what point did Hamas hijack three airliners and crash them into several national landmarks (here or in Israel) at once, killing 3,000?

    Not to defend Hamas, who's stock and trade is throwing rocks (or in their case, allowing missiles to be fired into Israel), then hiding behind women and children when the Israelis inevitably come calling (which is why war doesn't work, unless you want photos of dead children circling the globe). I'm not big on hyperbole, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl
    My understanding is that this was an unarmed ship carrying foreign aid flying the flag of a NATO nation in international waters. I don't see how anyone could justify attacking it.
    The US Navy would probably board any ship attempting to run a blockade in US territory, same as the Israelis did (the occupied territories still count as their "beat"). If they met resistance (and they clearly did) they'd probably open fire.

    Not to justify the Israeli blockade, by the way, which is a collective punishment scheme that's being pursued in the hopes of "persuading" the Gazan Palestinians to oust Hamas when they get fed up enough...not happening, because Hamas has its own smuggling operations and parcels out goods and cash to buy their allegiance.

    This is one of those geopolitical no-win situations that are increasingly common these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auslander View Post

    Worse than bin Laden?! Refresh my memory...at what point did Hamas hijack three airliners and crash them into several national landmarks (here or in Israel) at once, killing 3,000?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...uicide_attacks

    And that is just suicide attacks (not all of them are hamas, but many many are).... they also do the normal "rocks" in the way of missiles and things like that.

    They are labeled a terrorist group by the international community. They are very clear in their stance that they don't recognize Israel and claim that all Jews should die....

    Seriously, if they were doing this to America, what do you think the response would be?

    I still don't get why people are upset when they are attacked back? When their leaders are assassinated? I would think killing their leaders would get Israel a pat on the back....

    This entire ship event is just them playing the media to try and make Israel look like the "bad guy". It would be like if the taliban jumped out at US soldiers with toy guns in the middle of the night (while filming it) and then cried when they were shot by our troops.... umm.... (((err, actually, it would be like if they jumped out at US soldiers with toy guns...then started beating them and stabbing the soldiers...and THEN cried when they got shot LOL. And this is after they made it clear they wanted to be martyrs! Seriously, I don't get the mega restraint with this group and their games....))

    Oh, don't get me wrong, Israel is a jerk sometimes too. Building where they shouldn't or things like that.... but legal games aren't really the same as "blow you up!" games. I haven't heard of any suicide bombing Jews lately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    this thread is going to end well.
    Like this? P:

    Israel's boarding of six aid ship flotilla to Gaza results in death of 20

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    I really don't have a dog in this fight. But, given the facts as reported by the AP, that is one horribly biased headline!

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    "The Turkish IHH (Islan Haklary Ve Hurriyetleri Vakfi in Turkish), is a terrorist organization according to the United States"

    No it is not, the meaning of "Insan Haklary Ve Hurriyetleri Vakfi" is "human rights and freedom organization" which never had any illegal or terrorist acts

    "you'll have seen a slouch towards it's historically Islamic roots"

    you are taking about the roots that saved more than 30000 jewish people from spanish inquisation 300 years ago

    up until now turkiye was the only country in the middle eastern area that had normal relationships with israel . because of the current corrupt goverments actions in israel towards the palestinians, turkiye is not saying ok do what ever you want anymore, which makes turkiye islamist, terrorist and antisemitic . Please at least try to be a bit logical

    by the way I am also a kurd and turkish citizen turkey had six kurdish prime ministers and 4 presidents since 1923 so do not bs me saying turks are hypocratical

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivory_Oasis View Post
    If America was in Israels place, Hammas would have the entire US army on their doorstep killing anything that moves.
    Just like America did with Al-Qaeda? I don't know what you are talking about, because 10 years later Al-Qaeda is still not wiped out or getting any weaker. America, as powerful as you claim it to be, just failed. They would fail against Hammas too. And Israel, being America's retarded child is even worse, they can easily kill unarmed civilians, but when it comes to fighting other soldiers, they just can't do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vari View Post
    Just like America did with Al-Qaeda? I don't know what you are talking about, because 10 years later Al-Qaeda is still not wiped out or getting any weaker. America, as powerful as you claim it to be, just failed. They would fail against Hammas too. And Israel, being America's retarded child is even worse, they can easily kill unarmed civilians, but when it comes to fighting other soldiers, they just can't do it.
    Isreal hasn't really gotten any weaker since the six day war. Fighting three different armies on three different fronts is all in week's work for those guys.

    And if the Americans failed in Afghanistan and Iraq, Al-Qaeda and Hussein failed much harder.
    Brendan Noeth


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    Well, of course Hussein will fail, how can he win when half of the world and 2/3 of his country rises against him. And yet Al-Qaeda, who were the primary target are still operational and preparing airplane hijackings aimed at UK this time. Yeah, the desert is big place, but it's not endless. If the most powerful countries in the world can't locate a bunch of Islamic rats and their tunnels, that is pretty much a fail. Come on, America sends rovers on Mars to look for life, on Mars! But for 7 years they can't find where exactly in the desert Al-qaeda trains it's people?

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    This is the Middle East we are talking about. It's business as usual regardless of all the press coverage. Having said that, I don't know why the Israelis allegedly block imports of things like wheelchairs.

    Do they fear disabled suicide bombers?

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    This wouldn't have happened if Israel just allowed the amount of aid needed. They say they let in 15,000 tonnes of aid in, but the UN says that's not even a quarter of what is needed.

    As for attacking back, they attacked the ship first. And in international waters.

    When Israel was founded people were promised to be treated equally regardless of religion or ethnicity, which is sadly far from reality.

    Also, I do not agree with what suicide bombers are doing, but you have to remember that a vast majority of them (forgot the actual percentage) had members of their family killed before they became suicide bombers.

    Also, try to see it the way the Palestinians see it. You've just been kicked out of your house, it's been knocked down for new (illegal by the way) Jewish settlements. then to add to that, in a recent Israeli bombing a friend/family member has just been killed, are you going to just sit there and go "hey, you guys had a horrific time during the second world war, so go ahead and take it out on me and my people. Yeah sure, you can take my house for your people to live in, go right ahead". Most Palestinians grin and bear it, others don't, and understandably so.

    Really, the Israeli government's actions are putting both Israeli and Palestinian lives at risk.

    Ivory_Oasis, before you glorify war again live through one first then come back and condone all out no restraint war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vari View Post
    Well, of course Hussein will fail, how can he win when half of the world and 2/3 of his country rises against him. And yet Al-Qaeda, who were the primary target are still operational and preparing airplane hijackings aimed at UK this time. Yeah, the desert is big place, but it's not endless. If the most powerful countries in the world can't locate a bunch of Islamic rats and their tunnels, that is pretty much a fail. Come on, America sends rovers on Mars to look for life, on Mars! But for 7 years they can't find where exactly in the desert Al-qaeda trains it's people?
    Hussein is dead. Has been for a while. Bin Laden is quite probably dead. As for the other claims - attacks against the UK and failure to find training camps - post some credible links please.
    Brendan Noeth


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    Quote Originally Posted by zx52hg View Post
    This is the Middle East we are talking about. It's business as usual regardless of all the press coverage. Having said that, I don't know why the Israelis allegedly block imports of things like wheelchairs.

    Do they fear disabled suicide bombers?
    No. They fear, and justifiably so, the import of weapons along with the 'aid'. Happens all the time with these Islamic charity groups, who are anything but. The flotilla videos should disprove any notion that these are peace loving people bringing aid to a besieged underdog.

    Gaza is under blockade because it's dumbass citizens voted to bring in a murderous, theocratic regime. They're getting what they asked for.

    Israel allows these flotillas in, at a proper port, so they can be inspected. The flotilla organizers rejected this and chose to challenge the blockade directly. They wanted confrontation and they got it and predictably cry like babies, which is par for the course in the middle east.

    Someone should organize a convoy to Northern Iraq. Free the PKK!

    They say they let in 15,000 tonnes of aid in, but the UN says that's not even a quarter of what is needed.
    Ha! The UN is almost as worthless as the Turks. The UN has Iran and Saudi Arabia on their human rights commission, which if you know anything about the state of human rights in either country, is a joke.

    Gaza has plenty of food and medicine. What it really needs are educated citizens who aren't obsessed with Jews and how much clothes a woman is wearing. Ditto for the Muslim world in general. Biggest bunch of hypocrital crybabies.

    Loads of people die in the ME every day, and nary a peep out of everyone who's moaning about the flotilla. This isn't about people dying, but de-legitimizing Israel and eventually wiping it out.

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    I'm not taking sides, but I just read an interesting article that adds some info to the mix: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...-flotilla.html

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    Lol.

    It's been a year since I studied Israeli history, but I'll dig out my books for you ;]

    Please don't take this as an attack but as an attempt at healthy debate

    Loads of people die in the ME every day, and nary a peep out of everyone who's moaning about the flotilla.
    News coverage. For those who are aware it's business as usual, for others they hardly hear coverage of the situation in Israel.

    This isn't about people dying, but de-legitimizing Israel and eventually wiping it out
    Hardly, Israel is officially recognized, and will always be recognized as a country of it's own right, no amount of uprooting will 'de-legitimize' Israel. This flotilla thing wasn't about that either, it was a group of activists smuggling in aid to help those they thought needed it. I don't see how this action is part of any revolution or campaign to de-legitimize Israel. If this flotilla's aim was to attack the Israeli navy, transport would-be assassins to Israel or weapons instead of aid, I would agree with you. This isn't the case.

    Gaza has plenty of food and medicine. What it really needs are educated citizens who aren't obsessed with Jews and how much clothes a woman is wearing. Ditto for the Muslim world in general. Biggest bunch of hypocrital crybabies.
    Oh dear. =P

    I'm sorry, but simply stating that Gaza has plenty of food and medicine does not change reality. Medicine and hospital equipment is scarce in Gaza, especially after the frequent bombings (which are usually reactions to hammas activity/meant for hammas leaders, however many civilians are killed and seriously injured during the process).

    As for your sweeping generalization of all muslims and the attitude of all palestinians, most muslims are a peaceful and liberal bunch, a small minority of them are extremists/Islamists. I hate to use an overused example but, just because the KKK exists doesn't mean every christian shares the same views.

    As for Jew hating/obsession, hehehe

    1) first Jewish people were palestinian
    2) Before Israel and the events leading towards its establishment, Jewish, Muslim and Christian Palestinian (yes that's right, not all palestinians suffering in Gaza are muslim, some are christian and Jewish, do they not exist to you?) relations were extremely good, I remember an old Jewish man talking about how his grandmother used to babysit for her muslim neighbours in Palestine.

    Ha! The UN is almost as worthless as the Turks. The UN has Iran and Saudi Arabia on their human rights commission, which if you know anything about the state of human rights in either country, is a joke.
    I'm sorry but the UN is a recognized organization, all its findings are not fabricated and are carried out under countless strict guidelines, despite certain corruption within the organization, which have nothing to do with these findings.

    You do realize that Israel would not exist without UN corruption? This fact is usually avoided

    From my history notes:

    - On 27 November an adhoc vote by UNSCOP (UN special committee on Palestine) declared that Israel's creation would not be agreed by UN
    - Brazilian Chairman postponed vote for two days due to thanksgiving in US. Some countries then 'changed their minds' (due to US economic bribery and blackmail) or abstained and creation of Israel was agreed on 29 November 1947

    Israel allows these flotillas in, at a proper port, so they can be inspected. The flotilla organizers rejected this and chose to challenge the blockade directly. They wanted confrontation and they got it and predictably cry like babies, which is par for the course in the middle east.
    Again, the activists thought that not enough aid was reaching Palestinians through official channels, so decided to smuggle it in. Simple as.

    Gaza is under blockade because it's dumbass citizens voted to bring in a murderous, theocratic regime. They're getting what they asked for.
    Because they had had enough of being bombarded, Hammas promised them an army and a solution. There is a direct positive correlation between Hammas popularity and Israeli bombing/violence.

    I would compare this to another murderous regime which was voted in by a nation, but I will not to avoid the realization of Godwin's law.

    No. They fear, and justifiably so, the import of weapons along with the 'aid'. Happens all the time with these Islamic charity groups, who are anything but. The flotilla videos should disprove any notion that these are peace loving people bringing aid to a besieged underdog.
    They were attacked, and so attacked back. Not everyone uses the Ghandi approach.

    Again, there would be no attacks on legitimate aid ships like the ones in question if the right amount of aid was given, in which cause any ship attempting to smuggle anything in can be identified as a legitimate threat. This wouldn't have happened, and shouldn't have happened.

    TASmith, Oooh, that's an interesting take on the events, thanks for the link
    Last edited by Roboko; June 2nd, 2010 at 11:03 AM.

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    The IDF stormed a ship in international waters, carring peace activists from many different countries. Which resulted in the death of nine of them.
    The activists where bringing in food and building material. Supplies that are banned by Isreal i.e. textbooks paper,chocolate cement and medical supplys.

    They never believed that they would be able to deliver them. There aim was to bring the worlds attention to the ileagal blockade of over one and a half million people. And i think they did succeed but unfortunately not the way they intened.

    As for the video footage. The weapons they had where deck chairs metal bars and kitchen knives, implements you would find on any ship. There is nothing there that would make me believe they came there armed.
    I would like to see the shootings, as all we are seeing is one side, and we probably will never see the rest of the footage. As all cameras. phones. laptops have been confiscated.

    I don't think the IDF stormed the ship with the idea to shoot anyone.
    This was a PR stunt by the activists and should have been responded in kind.

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  35. #21
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    Ah, thanks for the extra info Mitze, there wasn't that amount of information in the articles I'd read apart from TASmith's link

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    Regarding the specific incidence the fault was not Israel taking control of the ships but rather the tactic behind it. Everything could be predicted and avoided. The Idf could easily surround the ships and force them to stop, sending in troops at start was a stupid move used usually to overtake terrorists where there is not as much concern about human life.
    This whole thing was an obvious set up and Israel would've done better planning ahead.
    Anyways, that's the talk here in Israel

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcpahl View Post
    My understanding is that this was an unarmed ship carrying foreign aid flying the flag of a NATO nation in international waters. I don't see how anyone could justify attacking it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev ferrara View Post
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    Israel's boarding of six aid ship flotilla to Gaza results in death of 20
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    Everything could be predicted and avoided. The Idf could easily surround the ships and force them to stop, sending in troops at start was a stupid move used usually to overtake terrorists where there is not as much concern about human life.
    Explain to me how 'surrounding' a ship, presumably with other ships, forces it to stop. And easily at that.

    Because they had had enough of being bombarded, Hammas promised them an army and a solution.
    Eh, no. Hama's has risen to power primarily at the expense of the Palestinian Authority, which is rife with corruption. At least more so than Hamas. And the rise of Hamas trends with the ascent of 'Islamic' governments(or at least the desire for them) across the Islamic world which Muslims see as authentically Islamic.

    Your other statements are laughable and naive. The idea that xstians, muslims, and jews lived in happy harmony prior to the foundation of Israel is idiotic. The Christian population of the Middle East has plummeted over the last 20 years, with many fleeing due to violence directed against them by -- wait for it - Muslims. I could go on and on.

    Everyone should take a gander a MEMRI to see the extent of the mental illness that is modern Middle Eastern and to a larger extent, Muslim culture.

    I do some work for an Afghani family every once in a while. As you gaze across their living room they have pictures of their kids with Santa Clause, kids at the Memorial Day parade, at Cedar Point etc, and then there's this giant carpet/drapery with an AK-47 on it overlaid by Quranic script proclaiming jihad against the infidel. It's hilarious. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to Arabs and the conversation gradually drifts to the Jews and then it's the worst kind of invective and wacky conspiracy theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elam View Post
    Explain to me how 'surrounding' a ship, presumably with other ships, forces it to stop. And easily at that.
    Well it's simple really, a passenger ship sails at about 20 or so knots, and cannot make fast or sharp turns like a smaller coast guard vessel or warship, so if you block the forward routes it has to take by making a small arc with your ships and circle that as it turns to find other venues of escape, you can indefinitely keep it going in a circle. Most captains would use common sense and stop. Nevermind the fact that the flotilla ships crew weren't under the orders of the activists, the captains' more than likely would not want a collision between them and an Israeli ship.

    You seem to be generalizing a lot, which does not help your arguments, I'm Turkish myself, and not anywhere near Islamist, but I would support those activist reaching Gaza no matter their politics because....*gasp*..it's the RIGHT thing to do.

    The animosity between Jews and Muslims is largely derived from lower/lower-middle class ignorance and right-wing propaganda, when all those families you refer to see is Israel/American attacks, amputee kids, bombed homes, etc. of course they're going to want to play the blame game on not the governments or individuals responsible, but on the whole ethnic group. So when a Muslim flotilla gets attacked, it's "all Jews fault", and when one man/woman suicide bombs (for religious/revenge/crazy reasons) it's "all Muslims fault and their backwards religion".

    So don't hesitate from calling groups or individuals out when there's a case to be made, and in this case, Israel fucked up. They could have surrounded the ships, disabled their motors, intercepted them at the port of Gaza. Among dozens of non-violent actions, they chose to play "Look at us and our elite crack commandos" and now are paying the PR price that I think the Islamists were hoping for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vari View Post
    Just like America did with Al-Qaeda? I don't know what you are talking about, because 10 years later Al-Qaeda is still not wiped out or getting any weaker. America, as powerful as you claim it to be, just failed. They would fail against Hammas too. And Israel, being America's retarded child is even worse, they can easily kill unarmed civilians, but when it comes to fighting other soldiers, they just can't do it.
    Jews have secret weapon!!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Elam View Post
    Explain to me how 'surrounding' a ship, presumably with other ships, forces it to stop. And easily at that.


    Eh, no. Hama's has risen to power primarily at the expense of the Palestinian Authority, which is rife with corruption. At least more so than Hamas. And the rise of Hamas trends with the ascent of 'Islamic' governments(or at least the desire for them) across the Islamic world which Muslims see as authentically Islamic.

    Your other statements are laughable and naive. The idea that xstians, muslims, and jews lived in happy harmony prior to the foundation of Israel is idiotic. The Christian population of the Middle East has plummeted over the last 20 years, with many fleeing due to violence directed against them by -- wait for it - Muslims. I could go on and on.

    Everyone should take a gander a MEMRI to see the extent of the mental illness that is modern Middle Eastern and to a larger extent, Muslim culture.

    I do some work for an Afghani family every once in a while. As you gaze across their living room they have pictures of their kids with Santa Clause, kids at the Memorial Day parade, at Cedar Point etc, and then there's this giant carpet/drapery with an AK-47 on it overlaid by Quranic script proclaiming jihad against the infidel. It's hilarious. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to Arabs and the conversation gradually drifts to the Jews and then it's the worst kind of invective and wacky conspiracy theories.
    Thanks for the lolz.

    I'm an atheist, but I was brought up in a muslim family, and I am not aware of any giant carpets of hate in the house. Nor do my family talk about Jews obsessively, well unless you count my dad's obsession with the music of Enrico Macias, a jewish singer, man that music is on full blast 24/7 =P

    Technically to muslims Jews are not infidels but people of the book (christians/muslims/jews), you can even marry them if you wanted.

    Again, one example of some muslims you know who hate jews doesn't represent the sentiments of 1.2 billion people.

    Modern mental illness eh? What you are referring to is a combination of what Daniel Dennet calls 'Dangerous memes', and the quite recent (compared to the rest of middle eastern history) violence and turmoil in that region. What do you bloody expect? Try a little empathy, see it from their point of view, whether this view is right or wrong in your eyes, this is the view that they have developed due to the violence, and that is why they behave the way they do.

    Pfft, as for the happy harmonious existence, I didn't say that, I said before the rise of Zionism and the British mandate in Palestine things were pretty good.

    The christian population plummeting that you've referred to most probably has more to do with Lebanon, where there's a struggle for power between christians and muslims in government. The violence is on political not religious grounds. Although take what I say about Lebanon with a grain of salt since I'm pretty rusty on the conflict there.

    But what I don't understand is why you used a statistic about the plummeting of Christian population in the last 20 years when Israel was founded in 1949 and the British mandate went on before that? Enlighten me, or actually don't, you'll probably just go on about all muslims being mental psychopaths again.
    Last edited by Roboko; June 3rd, 2010 at 06:46 AM.

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    People need to stop seeing Muslims as one unified force against the west and as many different factions, instead. Militant groups are likely kill other Muslims without a thought if the cirumstances are right for them.

    Lumping them all together in blank generalisations is just going to inflame relations more.

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