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    I know this was posted a while ago now bit hopefully this will still be helpful. I like you have struggled with getting thought process behind Hampton's gestures to constructions even though I find them wonderfully presented.

    I have recently had a few 'Ah ha!' moments though and would urge you to look at citrusfrukt's thread: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho....php?p=2734071

    You can see there a little clearer the thought process from simple to complex.

    To describe my main ah ha moment the best I can:
    Remember when your told not to draw symbols (like eye and mouth) and instead use your right brain and observation. Well gesture in my mind actually relays in some way on symbols. They differ however in that they are objects in space. Cylinders, flowing lines, box structures. They start as simple as possible and become increasingly complex. Everyone has their own but they are geometric and 3D and exist in space in relation to each other, the head a simple sphere and box, the pelvis a bowl. The underlying bones can add shape to symbols as they take form. Hopefully some of this is evident in the thread I linked.

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    Whirly, I'd actually advise getting the actual books the person you linked to is copying from instead of looking at their copies.

    The books have a lot of information (though Bammes you may need translations since its German Only). You might learn even more from reading them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c0ffee View Post
    Reilly rocks
    His emphasis on relations, negative space and the longest line are so important. I don't understand why other anatomy books don't cover this as thoroughly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan K View Post
    His emphasis on relations, negative space and the longest line are so important. I don't understand why other anatomy books don't cover this as thoroughly.
    Reilly's is a shape-mapping system.

    Thus, it's not really "anatomy" study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan K View Post
    His emphasis on relations, negative space and the longest line are so important. I don't understand why other anatomy books don't cover this as thoroughly.
    Kamber addressed the anatomy question already, so I'm free to go off on my own tangent here.

    Any art instruction book has to have a target market in mind. The largest market for art instruction isn't commercial or would-be commercial artists, but art students* and hobbyists. More often than not, even the books that look like they're really structured for the hard core artists are often quite shallow when dealing with the nuts and bolts of the work to allow themselves to remain accessible to a larger audience.

    Things that function best for us often go places beyond and above the average art student or hobbyists desires or abilities.

    If the real knowledge were a swimming pool, the water would get very deep very quickly.

    There are books that function well for both groups, but often cover more general elements with depths that plumbed as your knowledge and experience expands, such as Peck's anatomy texts or Bridgman's drawing books. Their usefulness is readily apparent to the student or casual sketcher. Show those same neophytes to a heavier book, such as Faragasso's figure book, and you might as well be presenting a medieval farmer with a Rubik's Cube. Some might figure it out, but most wouldn't understand why you would even want to attempt it.

    Perhaps the best example is the current state of perspective books on the market. The typical art student and hobbyist is unlikely to need more than the most basic understanding of one and two-point perspective and something to refer to when they forget how to pop in that occasional third point. More advanced perspective methods, techniques and even terminology are usually missing.

    Most anatomy books suffer from the same intentional ignorance, simplifying to the point of near uselessness for the serious artist. You won't see the more common anatomy text attempt to explain the motion of the shoulder girdle and what happens as the arm rotates through space, since that's rocket science and most art-book consumers just wanna know how to make a paper airplane.

    ~Richard

    * When I use "art-students" it's not intended as an insult, but the majority of art students in North America never pursue careers as professional commercial artists. I draw a distinction between the typical art student and the serious would-be art professional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamber Parrk View Post
    Reilly's is a shape-mapping system.

    Thus, it's not really "anatomy" study.
    But isn't anatomy just shapes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Whirly, I'd actually advise getting the actual books the person you linked to is copying from instead of looking at their copies.

    The books have a lot of information (though Bammes you may need translations since its German Only). You might learn even more from reading them.
    I'm not sure what has made you think I don't have the books I do and I use them often. I was merely saying have a look at that thread for more examples of the method, they are a bit clearer because they are a bit more simplified and it might help out.

    Looking at a teachers work is obviously helpful but if struggling to grasp the concept its often helpful to see an achieving students work to see where they struggled and how their struggle was overcome. Its easier simply to see the process of thought.

    Hope this makes sense now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    I'm not sure what has made you think I don't have the books I do and I use them often. I was merely saying have a look at that thread for more examples of the method, they are a bit clearer because they are a bit more simplified and it might help out.
    No.

    Because the book is better and more clear. Also their studies have a lot of mistakes. But that's ok, because that person is learning. I have no problem with people posting their studies. You're basically telling someone to look at a "movie adaptation" of a book. You know the adage - the book is always better.

    Learning from a student is learning their mistakes and therefore not learning yourself because you need to make your own, not copying someone else. So no, this doesn't make sense. If you want to see student drawings, there is the American Bammes book which goes down to demonstrative examples of the courses he was teaching. That of course is about application of a study, not something you should directly copy and study from.

    However, saying that, I remember one of the best ways to look at studies is when someone applies an approach to them you should follow on your own.

    The Bridgman one is a good example here:
    http://deadoftheday.blogspot.com/200...n-anatomy.html

    If you are going to go to a sketchbook for learning all this, I'd highly advise going to Mentler's instead.
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26748

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; July 7th, 2010 at 10:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    No.
    Because the book is better and more clear ......You're basically telling someone to look at a "movie adaptation" of a book. You know the adage - the book is always better.
    Please understand I am not saying look at that INSTEAD of the book. Of course the book is better! But if you are in a classroom and you are struggling with the concepts and a student next to you has progressed seeing if you can see why is still helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Learning from a student is learning their mistakes and therefore not learning yourself because you need to make your own, not copying someone else.
    I never suggested copying either from the thread or the book. Just to look at how another student has approached the methodology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    So no, this doesn't make sense. If you want to see student drawings, there is the American Bammes book which goes down to demonstrative examples of the courses he was teaching. That of course is about application of a study, not something you should directly copy and study from.
    If you are going to go to a sketchbook for learning all this, I'd highly advise going to Mentler's instead.
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26748
    Again I never said copy from anything. Also yes all those sources are wonderful but not specifically about Hampton's exercises for which the question was asked.

    I am aware you know more than me and most probably a better artist (its not a difficult stretch ) and so don't want appear presumptuous enough to argue that I know better but I think you are just misunderstanding what I suggested.

    Also please don't read this with argumentative or angry tone, as it isn't intended. I just wanted to explain myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    Please understand I am not saying look at that INSTEAD of the book. Of course the book is better! But if you are in a classroom and you are struggling with the concepts and a student next to you has progressed seeing if you can see why is still helpful.
    No actually that I understand but this is still a no, because the student is just copying out of the book. It's basically the same illustrations you're getting out of the book. How can you not understand something out of the book if you're copying the same material?

    I never suggested copying either from the thread or the book. Just to look at how another student has approached the methodology.
    Ok, but same problem: your "Aha moment" is coming from someone copying a book. A book you already have. What is the difference between looking at the book and doing the exercises, and looking at someone else do them? You got the aha, from not doing them but watching someone else? Not good. Meaning you need to learn when to jump in and do them yourself. It's like an instructor teaching golf or other activity that takes something physical. I can watch videos on how to swing a golf club, and get an "aha" from the guy swinging, but I really need to do it myself - it's a bigger "Aha"

    Again I never said copy from anything. Also yes all those sources are wonderful but not specifically about Hampton's exercises for which the question was asked.
    Yes and neither was your example post in this thread addressing that, to be honest.

    I am aware you know more than me and most probably a better artist (its not a difficult stretch ) and so don't want appear presumptuous enough to argue that I know better but I think you are just misunderstanding what I suggested.

    Also please don't read this with argumentative or angry tone, as it isn't intended. I just wanted to explain myself.
    Actually the simplicity of it is - 1. You posted a bad example and 2. It wasn't exactly relevant to gesture drawing. The thread has mostly copies of other artists, which again I stress go to the source and/or better yet do gestures from actual life drawings. (Notice people suggested that in the very thread you posted).

    Also I'm not, I'm disagreeing with you and am actually pointing out why this tends to be a hindrance than help when learning to draw. We watch too much and need to observe ourselves and well do it. Meaning we need to learn how to see, not see not just see what others see. That's the vision of being an artist is it not?

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; July 7th, 2010 at 02:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    No actually that I understand but this is still a no, because the student is just copying out of the book. It's basically the same illustrations you're getting out of the book. How can you not understand something out of the book if you're copying the same material?

    Are you looking at the same images as me? The images I am referred to are from photo reference and imagination not copies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Ok, but same problem: your "Aha moment" is coming from someone copying a book. A book you already have. What is the difference between looking at the book and doing the exercises, and looking at someone else do them? You got the aha, from not doing them but watching someone else? Not good. Meaning you need to learn when to jump in and do them yourself. It's like an instructor teaching golf or other activity that takes something physical. I can watch videos on how to swing a golf club, and get an "aha" from the guy swinging, but I really need to do it myself - it's a bigger "Aha"
    Again I am not referring to any copies from the book I am referring to the many many gesture drawings done from photos and imagination.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Yes and neither was your example post in this thread addressing that, to be honest.
    I am seriously questioning whether you are looking at the same thread. The hundreds of gesture drawings done from photo reference using the methods in Hampton's book!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    Actually the simplicity of it is - 1. You posted a bad example and 2. It wasn't exactly relevant to gesture drawing. The thread has mostly copies of other artists, which again I stress go to the source and/or better yet do gestures from actual life drawings. (Notice people suggested that in the very thread you posted).
    Again .... hundreds of gesture drawings from reference and imagination using the methods in Hampton's book. Not copies of artists .. nothing to do with gesture drawing?

    So to reiterate I'm not saying copy copies. I'm not even saying copy anything! I am saying: If you are struggling with Hampton's methodology for gestures here is another student making good progress (good progress is doing their OWN gestures with that method). In seeing where they went wrong and how they improved it MAY be some help to you. It certainly was for me. I am also not saying use it as substitute for your own life drawing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    Are you looking at the same images as me? The images I am referred to are from photo reference and imagination not copies.
    Yes, I am. They look like copies from a book. Now I see why. Photo reference. That isn't to say all photo reference is bad in fact it can be very useful and you'll find me often defending it, but if you're going to draw from life, actually use life when you're starting out (and you can use photos too, but if you just use photos and not observation it does tend to look lopsided). They just look like copies of copies. Even still life can help you out. The from imagination copies look the same.

    Go study life and apply that methodology to it. Otherwise, the sketchbook you posted still looks like a copy of a book.

    I also want to say, the example thread still doesn't apply, remember Xeon wanted photo copies close by to apply to how Hampton went to gesture. It's just a lot of sketches if you look at it that way which is no different than reading the book. So how is again an "aha moment" It's just more sketches of the same thing? Obviously people can pick up and apply it, otherwise he wouldn't put out an instructional book that is useful. That wasn't the problem Xeon has.

    I think I'll stick with what instructors and other artists have told me, if I'm going to learn to draw I should use more from life. That's why I go outside and sketch on location. Sure it looks bad because it's harder when capturing human movement but at least it makes me understand gesture better. I'm getting a lot better a-ha moments from that and the book's source.

    Again, I'm not discouraging the link you posted to stop drawing, quite the opposite, draw more but when that person feels comfortable go outside or find a friend or family member and learn to apply gesture. Add it to the studies. I am just discouraging it as a good example to get an aha moment. Sometimes there isn't really "cliff notes' to good observation. You need to learn on your own.

    Last edited by Arshes Nei; July 8th, 2010 at 09:43 AM.
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    More information is good information. One of the biggest advantages of an IRL classroom situation is that there are other students there, not just an instructor. Seeing how other people react to a problem/exercise/assignment, for good and ill, can help clarify what the meaning and purpose of the assigment is.


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    Haha, funny to see my sketchbook being brought up, even though it is quite dead and a new one will soon have to be born. Anyways, i completely agree with what Arshes is saying. My sb is a crap example of how to learn, as much as it hurts to admit it's more like an example of how not to learn.

    Listen to the more experienced guys and gals, they know what they are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by citrusfrukt View Post
    Haha, funny to see my sketchbook being brought up, even though it is quite dead and a new one will soon have to be born. Anyways, i completely agree with what Arshes is saying. My sb is a crap example of how to learn, as much as it hurts to admit it's more like an example of how not to learn.

    Listen to the more experienced guys and gals, they know what they are talking about.
    No it's part of an example of part of learning. That's why I said to combine it with life drawing. I don't see why it has to be "Reborn" in a sense, you keep going and adding on to your studies. I was saying the dangers of solely using photo ref and imagination can lead your studies to looking like the book, so going outside for more information is good.

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    Feel like I have just gone: Everyone look at citrusfrukt! *pause* -everyone stares and points- hehe sorry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arshes Nei View Post
    No it's part of an example of part of learning. That's why I said to combine it with life drawing. I don't see why it has to be "Reborn" in a sense, you keep going and adding on to your studies. I was saying the dangers of solely using photo ref and imagination can lead your studies to looking like the book, so going outside for more information is good.
    Yeah but the vast majority of everything in that SB is sadly not from imagination. I just kept bashing stuff from photo refs in hope that it would better stick but whenever i got around to try and draw from imagination i found i just couldn't really visualize good enough to effectively draw anyway. So instead of trying and failing i just kept doing the same thing over and over and i think that's where i failed. Instead of taking up on everyones advice i kept going on the path i had set for myself and when that didn't work out the way i thought it would i just completely lost direction.

    It doesn't really have to be reborn but it's been dead for over a month so i don't really see the point of bumping it up anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by citrusfrukt View Post
    Yeah but the vast majority of everything in that SB is sadly not from imagination. I just kept bashing stuff from photo refs in hope that it would better stick but whenever i got around to try and draw from imagination i found i just couldn't really visualize good enough to effectively draw anyway. So instead of trying and failing i just kept doing the same thing over and over and i think that's where i failed. Instead of taking up on everyones advice i kept going on the path i had set for myself and when that didn't work out the way i thought it would i just completely lost direction.

    It doesn't really have to be reborn but it's been dead for over a month so i don't really see the point of bumping it up anyway.
    That's normal. Most of what I had were from photo refs in the beginning because I was too afraid to go out and sketch. I did get to go to school though so that helped me open up my eyes a bit better. The point is, you can agonize over what you did, or you can learn from it, and just add on to your sketchbook. After all, it is one of the points in sketchbooks. It's where you dump your crap and learn from it so you can be less crappy.

    It really doesn't matter how old your sketchbook is, what matters is that you keep with it. I think it's a better way to track your progress too. I think when people quit their sketchbook threads and start new ones without really adding on to the old ones, it makes it look more fragmented. There are cases where it's ok though like if the thread gets too long.

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    Good day everyone, i have a question about Hampton's "s" and "c" curve and the striaght line.
    In his book, he says that we should be aware of eight parts of the body (head, spine, arms, pelvic, rib cage and legs). We will we use these eight parts to tell a story.
    My question is, analyzing the model, am i meant to use the curves to draw the outline of the model?

    The example in the books has a lot of curves but i can only see the outline.

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