Is there an Illustration industry??

Join 500,000+ Artists

Its' free and it takes less than 10 seconds!

Join the #1 Art Workshop - LevelUpJoin Premium Art Workshop

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 64
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    92
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 24 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Is there an Illustration industry??

    I'm studying Illustration for my Graphic Design course, and if anybody could answer some questions you'd truly be helping me out!

    1) Currently I view the Illustration industry as a vast, deep ocean that you’re bound to be completely lost in unless you have the biggest, shiniest boat. And you only get the big, shiny boat if your Aunt, twice removed on you mother’s side, knows someone, or of course if you’ve gotten lucky and won the lottery.Do you think this is unecessarily negative?

    2) I see ALOT of same-old same-old illustration, especially with pen and ink illustration. There is definately a current fashion, even to illustration, that people never realise until years later. Do you think it's better to stick to a trend in order to get work, or should you stick to your true identity as an artist and do exactly the kind of work you want?

    3) I also feel that Illustration is underappreciated by general society, even more so than Graphic Design. Illustration is never categorised as it’s own thing, it’s simply under the wing of Graphic Design, or under the wing of fine art. Therefore, there is no illustration industry, it is just viewed as part of a bigger entity. Do you agree with this statement?


    Thankyou for your time,

    Louisa Brooks

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to xLouisax For This Useful Post:


  4. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    In a Big Country
    Posts
    258
    Thanks
    191
    Thanked 90 Times in 55 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    1) Yes, it is far too negative. It doesn't really matter if you know someone who know's someone, or if your super rich. If your work is awful people won't want it so you won't get hired. While someone who is good at illustration is eventually going to get noticed and given work.

    2) Depends on how much you need the money. If you stick to a trend I think there is more of a chance that you will be hired sooner than if you do your own thing but nobody is really interested. There is a possibility that you could be hugely successful as a fine artist straight away, but it is a lot more risky than doing what you know is going to sell.

    3) I disagree with this. If you wanted an illustration you would most likely go to an illustrator rather than a graphic designer or fine artist ( not that you can't have elements of graphic design or fine art in an illustration) and therefore they sell something different so in my opinion they would be in a different industry.

    Hope that makes sense

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  5. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    2,679
    Thanked 5,946 Times in 2,393 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    [QUOTE=xLouisax;2732132]I'm studying Illustration for my Graphic Design course, and if anybody could answer some questions you'd truly be helping me out!

    1) Currently I view the Illustration industry as a vast, deep ocean that you’re bound to be completely lost in unless you have the biggest, shiniest boat. And you only get the big, shiny boat if your Aunt, twice removed on you mother’s side, knows someone, or of course if you’ve gotten lucky and won the lottery.Do you think this is unnecessarily negative?

    This is false; if you have good work you will get hired. This is also a very amateur attitude that does more harm to your career than good.



    2) I see ALOT of same-old same-old illustration, especially with pen and ink illustration. There is definately a current fashion, even to illustration, that people never realise until years later. Do you think it's better to stick to a trend in order to get work, or should you stick to your true identity as an artist and do exactly the kind of work you want?

    Illustration, unlike gallery art is not for your own self aggrandizement, you must use it in service of someone else's idea, that is why it is illustrative. There is no trend other than what the viewers respond to; and publishers hire. When you look back over its history you see this. Artists have always pushed styles but they were good at what they did, I recommend 'The Illustrator in America' as an example of the history of illustration

    3) I also feel that Illustration is under appreciated by general society, even more so than Graphic Design. Illustration is never categorized as it’s own thing, it’s simply under the wing of Graphic Design, or under the wing of fine art. Therefore, there is no illustration industry, it is just viewed as part of a bigger entity. Do you agree with this statement?

    Actually that is wrong, any good illustrator is a good graphic designer. Any good illustrator is also a good artist. Gallery art with its grant writing, begging for money or painting the same motif again and again, can't claim any high ground against illustration. Graphic design is a subset of illustration, because it focuses on the abstarct part of the process. The only reason it isn't in schools is because most of the people teaching illustration never actually did it for a living. Far easier to be a graphic designer and not have to learn to draw and paint representationally. There are exceptions, but they aren't the majority. Check your facts, more people will go see a Norman Rockwell show than go to a modern art exhibit.

    I would worry about getting accomplished and forget about style and trends.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to dpaint For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    92
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 24 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thankyou so much for your reply, it does make sense

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  8. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    92
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 24 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Thankyou for your insight, and for the kick up the arse you gave me for being so negative! ^_^

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  9. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Southwestern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,134
    Thanks
    8,227
    Thanked 5,581 Times in 1,786 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Please don't take this wrong, but I find it strange that the first two questions are so obviously biased and false, and from the way they're worded, they appear to be a personal belief of yours to some degree, that they make the statement you made in #3 almost comical/surreal. Did you even do any research before posting this, or are you looking for some kind of confirmation?

    ...and...for the record, just so you understand where I'm coming from; professional graphic designer, illustrator, photographer, writer, and exhibiting sculptor, painter, printmaker, textile artist, set designer, former design/production/illustration teacher, and President/CEO of four design studios/advertising agencies for nearly 45 years.

    ...and...(2), ILLUSTRATION is older than fine art, is a totally separate and self-supporting field in the modern world, and IS tightly tied to the advertising/graphic design fields because it is the visual arm of those fields by its very nature.

    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

    Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ilaekae For This Useful Post:


  11. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    383
    Thanks
    274
    Thanked 283 Times in 74 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I disagree with dpaint that a graphic designer is an underqualified illustrator. I also disagree that a good illustrator is by definition a good graphic designer.
    As a GD I find this asssessment trivialises the field, and the claim that its 'easy' to be GD
    is quite insulting actually.

    Typography, page layout, web design, flash animation, photography, digital pre-press, brand marketing, packaging design, signage etc...

    Few of these things are in the realm of the illustrator. Being able to draw an abstract representation of the subject matter in an article does not qualify you to do 90% of Graphic Design. Illustration ability is merely an asset to the GD, it allows the GD to employ his own artwork in his (or her) designs.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ExiledRed For This Useful Post:


  13. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    2,679
    Thanked 5,946 Times in 2,393 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post

    Typography, page layout, web design, flash animation, photography, digital pre-press, brand marketing, packaging design, signage etc...

    Few of these things are in the realm of the illustrator. Being able to draw an abstract representation of the subject matter in an article does not qualify you to do 90% of Graphic Design. Illustration ability is merely an asset to the GD, it allows the GD to employ his own artwork in his (or her) designs.
    Yeah thats not insulting. What you are talking about is craft, not art. Are you really going to compare paste up and picking fonts to JC Leyendecker, Dean Cornwell, Bernie Fuchs Mark English or Sterling Hundley? Give me a break.
    We disagree And you are right my opinion of GD as a skill is lower than good illustration. The golden age of illustration happened because people knew their place and stayed out of the illustrators way. Read any of the biographies of the illustrators and their editors of the time.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dpaint For This Useful Post:


  15. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    383
    Thanks
    274
    Thanked 283 Times in 74 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Yeah thats not insulting. What you are talking about is craft, not art. Are you really going to compare paste up and picking fonts to JC Leyendecker, Dean Cornwell, Bernie Fuchs Mark English or Sterling Hundley? Give me a break.
    We disagree And you are right my opinion of GD as a skill is lower than good illustration. The golden age of illustration happened because people knew their place and stayed out of the illustrators way. Read any of the biographies of the illustrators and their editors of the time.
    I'm not sure if its the internet, but you do really come across as aggressive and condescending. Im not making any distinctions between craft and art, merely asserting that a good illustrator isn't a good GD by definition. I'm also not making comparisons between the work of successful Illustrators and that of graphic designers, the comparison is meaningless.

    I dont rank one skillset over the other, there's no competition here for which is 'higher'. Again, trivialising the field to just 'paste up' and picking fonts' is not only insulting, its ignorant.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  16. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by xLouisax View Post
    1) Currently I view the Illustration industry as a vast, deep ocean that you’re bound to be completely lost in unless you have the biggest, shiniest boat. And you only get the big, shiny boat if your Aunt, twice removed on you mother’s side, knows someone, or of course if you’ve gotten lucky and won the lottery.Do you think this is unecessarily negative?
    Yes, it is negative. The illustration field is so large and varied that many people can find their own comfortable niche in it without getting "lucky". It helps if you're creative (and persistent) about how you market yourself. If you're a graphic designer as well, that should open even more doors.

    It may sometimes seem as though only the stars can make it when just a few trendy/famous illustrators get more than the usual amount of hype (appearing in all the illustration annuals, etc.) However, just because a few names are especially prominent doesn't mean there aren't thousands of other less-prominent illustrators making a good living.

    2) I see ALOT of same-old same-old illustration, especially with pen and ink illustration. There is definately a current fashion, even to illustration, that people never realise until years later. Do you think it's better to stick to a trend in order to get work, or should you stick to your true identity as an artist and do exactly the kind of work you want?
    There are trends, as with everything else in life, but there's also a lot more variation than you think. If you only look at illustration annuals and contests, they tend to have a narrow stylistic focus based on what the judging committee likes, which can give a very skewed view of the illustration field. In reality the field is broad enough to accommodate many, many styles at a time. Look around. You'd be surprised.

    I'd never recommend trying to force yourself into a style that doesn't suit you... It's good to be aware of general trends in design, and it definitely helps if you're flexible enough to be able to use them when necessary. But if you're always limited to aping a current popular style, you'll never develop your own presence.

    Find a balance. Develop your own look, but stay open to trends; and seek markets and clients that are most appropriate for the kind of work you like to do.

    3) I also feel that Illustration is underappreciated by general society, even more so than Graphic Design. Illustration is never categorised as it’s own thing, it’s simply under the wing of Graphic Design, or under the wing of fine art. Therefore, there is no illustration industry, it is just viewed as part of a bigger entity. Do you agree with this statement?
    What....... Where are you getting this from? Of course there's an illustration industry. Most of the top art schools have an illustration department. I graduated with a BFA in illustration from Parsons. Graphic design was a whole different department on another floor. Fine art was in a completely different building on the other side of town. There was no overlap. Last I checked RISD, Pratt, and SVA also had illustration departments, separate and distinct from the graphic design and fine art departments.

    Children's book illustrators, editorial illustrators, storyboard artists, concept artists, fashion illustrators, illustrators who do book covers, illustrators who do images for advertising, cartoonists and animators, greeting card and licensing artists, etc, etc... these are all illustrators. They are not "graphic designers" or "fine artists", and I've never seen them classified as such. And many of them get a helluva lot more popular acclaim than a lot of graphic designers or fine artists.

    And if there's no such thing as an illustration industry, explain the legions of Illustration black books, annuals, and contests, explain the Society of Illustrators, and explain why organizations such as the Graphic Artists Guild classify illustration as a distinct category?

    If anything, it's graphic designers who get a bum deal - most people don't know they exist, they're just an invisible presence behind the design. And it doesn't help that a lot of people think graphic design is way easier than it actually is...

    Of course you can combine illustration and graphic design, if you want. If you're an illustrator, it's a good idea to know at least some fundamental graphic design skills, as that can broaden the range of jobs you get.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to QueenGwenevere For This Useful Post:


  18. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    92
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 24 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I'll be honest in admitting that my questionnaire is very negative, and it was like that because I thought it would recieve a range of responses.

    I personally believe, deep in my heart that as long as you are truly a hard-working talented artist you can indeed make a living, one day.

    But I find it difficult to understand when some people are extremely deluded about the industry, and that students for example have this idea that they'll graduate and automatically get a sweet job and it will be smooth sailing from there. You have to be honest, this example isn't very realistic?

    Maybe that's why I've used negativity in the past as a motivator to work harder?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  19. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    Typography, page layout, web design, flash animation, photography, digital pre-press, brand marketing, packaging design, signage etc...
    mmmwell, Flash animation that involves flying type is in the realm of the graphic designer, but Flash animation that involves cartoon characters running around is squarely in the realm of the illustrator.

    Though I do agree with you that graphic designers get a lot less credit than they deserve. GOOD design actually takes a lot of thought, and awareness of aesthetics, design history, trends, semiotics, marketing, etc. I do illustration primarily, but I also do graphic design on the side, so I know how difficult it can be to come up with a really classy-looking design that works with the media it's intended for (in web design especially. Ugh.)

    I've also worked with designers who have focused purely on graphic design all their lives, and I know I can't design as well as they can. There's definite skill involved. The best designers manage to get that extra level of elegance in their designs that I can never quite seem to catch...

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to QueenGwenevere For This Useful Post:


  21. #13
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,675 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by xLouisax View Post
    I'm studying Illustration for my Graphic Design course, and if anybody could answer some questions you'd truly be helping me out!

    1) Currently I view the Illustration industry as a vast, deep ocean that you’re bound to be completely lost in unless you have the biggest, shiniest boat. And you only get the big, shiny boat if your Aunt, twice removed on you mother’s side, knows someone, or of course if you’ve gotten lucky and won the lottery.Do you think this is unecessarily negative?
    No, you're exactly right. The world is massively unfair, there's nothing you can do about it, and nothing is your fault. Quit now.

    Quote Originally Posted by xLouisax View Post
    2) I see ALOT of same-old same-old illustration, especially with pen and ink illustration. There is definately a current fashion, even to illustration, that people never realise until years later. Do you think it's better to stick to a trend in order to get work, or should you stick to your true identity as an artist and do exactly the kind of work you want?
    Again, bingo. Everything sucks, there's no originality anyway, so why even bother? The best you can do is find something successful, rip it off, milk it for all it's worth until it inevitably collapses, then move on the the next big thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by xLouisax View Post
    3) I also feel that Illustration is underappreciated by general society, even more so than Graphic Design. Illustration is never categorised as it’s own thing, it’s simply under the wing of Graphic Design, or under the wing of fine art. Therefore, there is no illustration industry, it is just viewed as part of a bigger entity. Do you agree with this statement?
    You've completely convinced me, screw this illustration stuff, I'm going to air conditioner repair school.



    ***

    SERIOUSLY, if the above is what you've gotten out of your school's program, either they've done a lousy job of teaching, or you've done a lousy job of learning.

    Last edited by Elwell; May 6th, 2010 at 02:48 PM.

    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  22. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:


  23. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    383
    Thanks
    274
    Thanked 283 Times in 74 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    mmmwell, Flash animation that involves flying type is in the realm of the graphic designer, but Flash animation that involves cartoon characters running around is squarely in the realm of the illustrator.
    In this case, the illustrator provides the cartoon characters and the designer/web developer animates them either within the Flash IDE or if he's capable by using actionscript.

    learning actionscript or the flash environment is something an illustrator may do, but it doesnt fall under the typical illustrator's job description, and Ive never seen or heard of actionscript being taught on an illustration course. (Although I may be wrong, theres probably one or two that touch upon it)

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  24. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    480
    Thanked 472 Times in 293 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    The questions the OP asked are every illustration student's darkests doubts... at least I recognize those questions from myself and fellow buddies and books like "How to be an illustrator" aren't exactly helping.
    (the book is good, but it isn't really positive or calming)

    No answering of the questions from my side though, best thing to do is not to waste energy and time on doubts and fears while you're in school. It just blocks your mind and doesn't help you in any way.

    I just took a break to post this.
    But sometimes I also draw stuff
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  25. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    The questions the OP asked are every illustration student's darkests doubts...
    Not if they went to a good school with good teachers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    In this case, the illustrator provides the cartoon characters and the designer/web developer animates them either within the Flash IDE or if he's capable by using actionscript.

    learning actionscript or the flash environment is something an illustrator may do, but it doesnt fall under the typical illustrator's job description, and Ive never seen or heard of actionscript being taught on an illustration course. (Although I may be wrong, theres probably one or two that touch upon it)
    Er... Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "animating"? Because I'm talking about, you know, traditional-style animation - for games and TV shows and things like that. It mostly involves drawing characters walking and talking and prancing around, often drawn frame-by-frame with very little code in the actual animation - so it really is an illustration job. (Television animation barely uses any code. It's all linear animation in the timeline.)

    I don't know what's being taught now, but when I was in school we learned animation for Macromedia Director (the forerunner of Flash), and we did learn at least the basics of the programming language (Lingo.) I would assume it's the same with Flash now, but I could be wrong.

    Personally, I taught myself Flash, including enough ActionScript to be able to code games. But I know that what I do is unusual. Generally in my experience animators do all the animation, and programmers do the scripting. And designers may not be involved at all, I'm afraid, except for title graphics or interface design.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  26. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    92
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 24 Times in 18 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    Not if they went to a good school with good teachers.
    But to be honest, i think a good teacher should make students aware of the difficulties of the industry, and of how hard a student will have to be working when they graduate. It's reverse psycology to motivate students...

    ...which is what many of you are doing to me in this post :p

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  27. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    383
    Thanks
    274
    Thanked 283 Times in 74 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post

    Er... Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "animating"? Because I'm talking about, you know, traditional-style animation - for games and TV shows and things like that. It mostly involves drawing characters walking and talking and prancing around, often drawn frame-by-frame with very little code in the actual animation - so it really is an illustration job. (Television animation barely uses any code. It's all linear animation in the timeline.)

    I don't know what's being taught now, but when I was in school we learned animation for Macromedia Director (the forerunner of Flash), and we did learn at least the basics of the programming language (Lingo.) I would assume it's the same with Flash now, but I could be wrong.

    Personally, I taught myself Flash, including enough ActionScript to be able to code games. But I know that what I do is unusual. Generally in my experience animators do all the animation, and programmers do the scripting. And designers may not be involved at all, I'm afraid, except for title graphics or interface design.
    It's importrant that a web based GD can script. Allowing a left brained, straight programmer to have any control over the visuals is, in my experience, a bad idea. My programmer colleague will say its a bad idea to let a designer code anything that isnt XHTML/CSS, so there is a fuzzy line we both have to traverse.

    Flash isnt the best medium for traditional style, linear, frame by frame, non interactive animation, it doesn't fully utilise Flash's interactive capabilities and the frame by frame stuff is memory intensive. As far as games go, the designer/developer/programmer needs to script when and why the character prances, talks, dies, explodes or whatever. He will access the relevant illustration sequence from the library and ensure that they display when and where theyre supposed to and in the correct order. Often he will create the movie clip from the various 'frames' provided by the artist and tween that.
    Now since CS4 and the bone/bind tool, it is possible to do simple animations from a single image.

    Actionscript 3.0 is much more robust and complex than previous versions. It used to be quite simple to make a button work or to control the timeline, but now you have to fully understand programming concepts, classes, event listeners and event handlers, and a boatload of other stuff, just to make simple things happen.

    A lot of graphic designers, illustrate, and many others, especially those in web development, like me, code. We are the link between both artist and programmer, and the viewer/user, be it on a web page, a magazine, on the movie poster, the video games box, the graphic user interface on your game/application and so on.

    Edit: I think the disconnect is that I've not been including 'animation' under the umbrella of 'illustration' and that was quite wrong of me. Many animators learn Flash at a basic level and employ it for their animations. In WD the line is blurred between animator/designer and programmer when you are dealing with the flash environment, all may play a part in the final product. In my case two developers are better than three, and it is easier for everybody involved if the 'graphics guy' handles as much as possible when it comes to animating the graphics, be they text or cartoon characters.

    Last edited by ExiledRed; May 6th, 2010 at 04:10 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  28. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    5,234
    Thanks
    3,512
    Thanked 4,903 Times in 2,544 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Michaelangelo was an illustrator - he worked for the Pope.

    What would Caravaggio do?
    _________________________

    Portfolio
    Plein Air
    Digital
    Still Life
    Sight Measuring
    Fundamentals
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  29. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to JeffX99 For This Useful Post:


  30. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    480
    Thanked 472 Times in 293 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenGwenevere View Post
    Not if they went to a good school with good teachers.
    But what do you do when you are in Europe where the schools are smaller and have less reputation like the US giants like CalArts or Ringling..
    and where the industry for magazines, games and animations is tiny, where art can be less accepted depending on the region and where networking and country-switching on the continent is harder because of language barriers?

    I just took a break to post this.
    But sometimes I also draw stuff
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  31. #21
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,675 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiera View Post
    But what do you do when you are in Europe where the schools are smaller and have less reputation like the US giants like CalArts or Ringling..
    and where the industry for magazines, games and animations is tiny, where art can be less accepted depending on the region and where networking and country-switching on the continent is harder because of language barriers?
    This is a legitimate issue. However, because the vast majority of illustration is freelance, and most promotion, client interaction, and delivery of artwork is done over the web, the industry is pretty much international these days. The flip side of that is that you are also competing with the whole world, so you better be damned good.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  32. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:


  33. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    480
    Thanked 472 Times in 293 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    This is a legitimate issue. However, because the vast majority of illustration is freelance, and most promotion, client interaction, and delivery of artwork is done over the web, the industry is pretty much international these days. The flip side of that is that you are also competing with the whole world, so you better be damned good.
    good point - that means basically.. back to the drawing table

    I just took a break to post this.
    But sometimes I also draw stuff
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  34. The Following User Says Thank You to Kiera For This Useful Post:


  35. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    2,337
    Thanks
    1,074
    Thanked 2,199 Times in 1,055 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    Flash isnt the best medium for traditional style, linear, frame by frame, non interactive animation, it doesn't fully utilise Flash's interactive capabilities and the frame by frame stuff is memory intensive.
    True as far as that goes, BUT Flash is increasingly used to produce a lot of TV animation, where interactivity and memory and all that don't matter. So there's a whole niche now of traditional-style animators who work in Flash and don't need to know any code at all.

    And then there's those of us who perpetually seek a happy middle ground of animation that looks TV-quality but doesn't bog down performance. Fun, fun.

    As far as games go, the designer/developer/programmer needs to script when and why the character prances, talks, dies, explodes or whatever.
    Hey, I know that, that's what I do for a living. But someone has to draw the frames/animated sequences/long rambling animated cut scenes/etc. And that would be the illustrator/animator person. (And if it's me, I also do the code to make it all happen when it needs to happen.) (Actually, in the CD-ROM days, I didn't handle the code - instead I drew all the individual frames and then stood over the programmer and directed him to make them all run properly. Much like what you describe.)

    Now since CS4 and the bone/bind tool, it is possible to do simple animations from a single image.
    Simple animations.

    Actionscript 3.0 is much more robust and complex than previous versions. It used to be quite simple to make a button work or to control the timeline, but now you have to fully understand programming concepts, classes, event listeners and event handlers, and a boatload of other stuff, just to make simple things happen.
    Actually, you need to know all that to make AS2 do anything really significant, too. I've been starting to learn AS3, and so far it looks like some things will actually be easier than in AS2 (fewer kludges needed, for one thing.) Looking forward to it.

    Edit: I think the disconnect is that I've not been including 'animation' under the umbrella of 'illustration' and that was quite wrong of me.
    I think another disconnect is that we seem to work in different markets - most of what I do is for kids, and is often based on TV shows, so it's VERY heavy on character animation - usually the client wants sites and games that look and feel like a TV show, so there's a lot of pure animation work involved, and some strictly illustrational stuff (backgrounds, concept art, character design, etc.) And if it's a game, there's a lot of pure code work involved. So the division of labor is more along the lines of illustration/animation team + programming team + voice actor(s)/sound person if necessary + writer if necessary, and sometimes a designer to handle some aspects of look-and-feel or non-illustrational interface.

    I'm sure what you're describing is typical for your market, though - actually, that's why I was curious to know what you were thinking, I like seeing how different markets approach this stuff. It's always educational.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  36. The Following User Says Thank You to QueenGwenevere For This Useful Post:


  37. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    383
    Thanks
    274
    Thanked 283 Times in 74 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    ^^ The truth about AS3 is that its made a lot of stuff that was very hard to do in AS2 much easier, but on the flip side its made a lot of the very easy stuff that non programmer designers could handle, extremely convoluted.
    AS2 was your stoner friend from highschool, AS3 is a strict german mistress. (no offence to the germans)

    My kid would love me to be in your market, he's probably played some of your games, but I/we only develop in Flash when there is a specific requirement to do so. Its not unlikely that I could end up working on another flash game in the near future, we are talking to a client about developing an educational game as part of their website, but I dont have too much experience with the type of games you develop, maybe when Flash appears on every smartphone but the iPhone, it'll be something we think of.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  38. The Following User Says Thank You to ExiledRed For This Useful Post:


  39. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Southwestern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,134
    Thanks
    8,227
    Thanked 5,581 Times in 1,786 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by dpaint View Post
    Yeah thats not insulting. What you are talking about is craft, not art. Are you really going to compare paste up and picking fonts to JC Leyendecker, Dean Cornwell, Bernie Fuchs Mark English or Sterling Hundley? Give me a break.
    We disagree And you are right my opinion of GD as a skill is lower than good illustration. The golden age of illustration happened because people knew their place and stayed out of the illustrators way. Read any of the biographies of the illustrators and their editors of the time.
    "...any good illustrator is a good graphic designer. Any good illustrator is also a good artist. Gallery art with its grant writing, begging for money or painting the same motif again and again, can't claim any high ground against illustration. Graphic design is a subset of illustration, because it focuses on the abstarct part of the process. The only reason it isn't in schools is because most of the people teaching illustration never actually did it for a living. Far easier to be a graphic designer and not have to learn to draw and paint representationally."

    dpaint, I don't care if I get banned for this for life, but, as well as being absolutely false, this is just too fucking grotesque an insult to allow to pass without comment. If you believe that Design is paste up and picking fonts, you are either the least knowledgeable person within the art community I have ever met, or you're simply to stupid to understand the difference between truth and lies. You just insulted one of the premiere fields in the modern communications world, and one that you probably couldn't survive without. I suggest you apologize to every Designer who browses/belongs to this forum right now (of which I am one) or I'm going to file a formal complaint...and for ME to stoop THAT low gives you some idea of how motherfucking pissed off I am right now.


    Revised to add additional comment by dpaint.

    Last edited by Ilaekae; May 6th, 2010 at 07:19 PM.
    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

    Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  40. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ilaekae For This Useful Post:


  41. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Boise, ID
    Posts
    1,238
    Thanks
    889
    Thanked 1,535 Times in 567 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I just stumbled onto this thread and the line that Ilaekae just commented on was the only line that really stood out to me in all of what was said above. I am agreeing with him 100%. Maybe I won't say it in such vehement terms, I'm a bit of a wuss, but denigrating graphic design in this way is just uncalled for. Kind of what every person who desktop publishes believes; anyone can do it. I did graphic design for a lot of years as I built my illustration career but even with all of that experience I still don't call myself a graphic designer. Not good enough. Oh I can do it at some level but a real graphic designer has a passion for type and design, makes text sing, and composes complex visual problems so most of us don't even notice as we read through daily life. It's this kind of attitude that points every wayward "art" student toward graphic design.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  42. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bcarman For This Useful Post:


  43. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    383
    Thanks
    274
    Thanked 283 Times in 74 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    How do i thank a post twice?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  44. #28
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,675 Times in 5,021 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Overlap, not subset.

    Name:  venn.jpg
Views: 660
Size:  30.0 KB


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  45. The Following 20 Users Say Thank You to Elwell For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  46. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    So-Cal
    Posts
    3,427
    Thanks
    2,994
    Thanked 1,780 Times in 849 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Normally I don't agree with charts, but yours is pretty accurate.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  47. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    2,679
    Thanked 5,946 Times in 2,393 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    [QUOTE=Ilaekae;2732690]" I suggest you apologize to every Designer who browses/belongs to this forum right now (of which I am one) or I'm going to file a formal complaint...and for ME to stoop THAT low gives you some idea of how motherfucking pissed off I am right now.


    I thought we weren't allowed to type bad words?
    I feel like I'm trapped in Tom Wolfe's book 'The Painted Word'

    Shape is shape; even text is only shape unless you understand the language. Everything starts with shape and builds in complexity until you end up with representational art at the top.

    Not all art is equal; and all forms of it have crap and genius but all representational art ( sculpture, drawing and painting and film}have all of the things design and nonrepresentational art have, plus it has mimetic illusion.

    This is why when representational artists get involved in the subsets of
    representational art they kick ass, but it doesn't work the other way around with nonrepresentational artists;

    Representational artists like Arthur and Lucinda Matthews, Frank Brangwyn, Alfonse Mucha, Louis Comfort Tiffany,William Morris Hunt. Hell, Syd Mead, Iain McCaig and Luigi Colani. All have done type design, fashion design, building design, furniture, jewelry, books; you name it. If you compare great to great in their respective fields what Saul Bass and Jackson Pollack have done aren't equal to what Rubens or Kubrick have done.

    So I don't care if you like what I said. Its my opinion. I didn't say graphic designers are bad people or make any attack on their persons. I'm just not impressed by it. I've been paid as a professional for just about anything related to art so I'm entitled to my informed opinion. If that makes me a snob and an asshole in your book well yeah, fine; you don't have to hire me or buy my work. Yawn...

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  48. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dpaint For This Useful Post:


Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 2

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
  • 424,149 Artists
  • 3,599,276 Artist Posts
  • 32,941 Sketchbooks
  • 54 New Art Jobs
Art Workshop Discount Inside
Register

Developed Actively by vBSocial.com
The Art Department
SpringOfSea's Sketchbook