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    Global Warming

    A completely unrelated thread here got sidetracked into a debate on global warming, hence I'm starting this thread so that the discussion can continue, and the old thread can get back on-topic.

    I'd like to address these points made in the old thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Diarum View Post
    Attachment 951937
    (1) If you look at the one there is a huge spike in the levels of Co2. So is that to be blames on Humans too? was it our camp fires burning that caused the co2 levels to sky rocket?
    (2) again another high level of co2, was the caused by humans?
    (3) Another rise in the level of co2 the the atmosphere. So by peoples logic that should have been humans fault for all of that co2, shouldn't it?
    (4) Look at the much the level of CO2 drops, why is that huh? So really you theory is flawed just from that.
    No, the CO2 spikes you're referring to are attributed to ice ages. Volcanic eruptions are also thought to have had a large influence on atmospheric CO2. CO2 is not exclusively anthropogenic (man-made), no one is suggesting that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Diarum View Post
    the oceans contain about 50 times more CO 2 than the atmosphere and 19 times more than the land biosphere. So really most of the CO2 emission doesn't even effect the earth negatively.
    Unfortunately it may have a very serious effect. CO2 is an acidic oxide, meaning it makes water more acidic. This effects the ability of many ocean organisms to form calcium shells, and could potentially catastrophically undermine the ocean food chain. link
    Last edited by gjpetch; April 10th, 2010 at 07:56 PM.


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    I understand how some people can debate the science. Personally my tiny art goon brain can't follow it. But the canary in the coal mine is that the North Pole is melting rapidly. You can not deny that with a straight face. I think it's mostly hype and overreaction though. It's too bad political freaks always ruin the credibility of their own cause even when it's just.

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    The thing is... Car exhausts and similar things weren't even good before we knew about global warming. So there's really no reason not to take care of the enviroment.
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    What gets me is the UK government is pushing for the switch over to digital radio to be completed by 2015, never mind about making 30 million plus radios obsolete and heading for landfill, but the additional consumption required to make the new radios to replace the old goes against the grain of a government supposedly dedicated to reducing the country's carbon footprint. There is no joined up thinking only the shiny new digital age that we are all being forced to embrace whether we want it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobbA View Post
    The thing is... Car exhausts and similar things weren't even good before we knew about global warming. So there's really no reason not to take care of the enviroment.
    That's pretty much how I see it. Whether or not climate change IS man made, there is still no excuse to be wasteful. Maybe your wastefulness won't affect the environment on a global scale, but it absolutely will affect the local landfill and shit. Most of the people who say global warming isn't real, especially down here in the po-dunk hick state of South Carolina, don't say it because of any knowledge of evidence they have against it, but because they are lazy pieces of shit who want an excuse to hate liberals and be wasteful. Fuck, if you foreigners came to the local grocery store down here you'd probably be appalled.

    As for CO2, i believe that we had a global warming thread a while ago and somebody posted a video called "The Great Global Warming Swindle." I obviously watched it with a grain of salt, but their science sounded solid. Basically, (I hope I'm not misinterpreting) they said it has nothing to do with CO2, because, contrary to the message Al Gore spread with "An Inconvenient Truth," the affect is opposite, in that temperature rises in turn rise CO2 levels (with about a decade of discrepancy ), instead of CO2 causing temperature.

    They also quote something like earth's volcanoes produce waaaaaaay more CO2 than all of our factories in the world. I kind of find that hard to believe, and wonder how they got the numbers for that one.

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    On Thursday N.E. Ohio was near 80. On Fiday it snowed. I dunno.

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    A lot of misinformation against global warming stems from the fact that people see cool weather and immediately run to say "SEE! NO WARMING HERE!".

    The most fundamental change of global warming is the rise and setting in of EXTREME weather patterns, so summers are hotter and winters colder, with a shrinking spring/fall pattern. You can see it even now as last fall and this spring we've had unseasonably cold/warm weather streaks that have been for years closing the gap between summer and winter.

    If these patterns continue, in our lifetime, we could see regular mid-80s in November in the northeast US followed by a rapid plunge into 30s and 20s in December, with none of the 40-60 degree weather of the fall.

    Working to prevent global warming collectively is easy, look at the California energy crisis, where people were called on to conserve energy, turn off lights no in use, unplug extra appliances, and 99% of the population of the state participated, saving something like 15% of energy produced.
    Last edited by Reymus; April 10th, 2010 at 10:39 AM.

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    I'm not really here or there but changing the wording from "global warming" to a vague "climate change" makes wonder. I mean when someone has a monetary vested interest in a movement you have to really look at both sides since it will be in their interests to lie to you. But I don't know. Here's Jesse Ventura's Conspiracy Theory show where the investigates the Global Warming "conspiracy". 6 parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    On Thursday N.E. Ohio was near 80. On Fiday it snowed. I dunno.
    weather =/= climate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rainville View Post
    weather =/= climate.
    Just thinking out loud on that one.

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    cold in the winter and hot in the summer is Climate change so really it does change. why did you change it from Global warming to Climate change
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    Weather tends to go in cycles and those with short memories forget that it wasn't so long ago scientists were all doom and gloom about us heading into another ice age. I can also see that governments will use any excuse to chip away at people's civil liberties by any means. In the end I don't care; the world will look after itself and if that means the end of man, so what. Life in some form will survive and adapt and hopefully go forward. Humans are a blip in the universe.

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    Global warming is climate change but not all climate change is global warming. Logic motherhubbard, do you speak it?
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    Scientists Write Open Letter to Congress: 'You Are Being Deceived About Global Warming' -- 'Earth has been cooling for ten years'

    Below is a reprint of a July 1, 2009 Open Letter to Congress by a team of prominent scientists.

    TO THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES: YOU ARE BEING DECEIVED ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING

    You have recently received an Open Letter from the Woods Hole Research Center, exhorting you to act quickly to avoid global disaster. The letter purports to be from independent scientists, but that Center is the former den of the President's science advisor, John Holdren, and is far from independent. This is the same science advisor who has given us predictions of “almost certain” thermonuclear war or eco-catastrophe by the year 2000, and many other forecasts of doom that somehow never seem to arrive on time.

    The facts are:

    The sky is not falling; the Earth has been cooling for ten years, without help. The present cooling was NOT predicted by the alarmists' computer models, and has come as an embarrassment to them.

    The finest meteorologists in the world cannot predict the weather two weeks in advance, let alone the climate for the rest of the century. Can Al Gore? Can John Holdren? We are flooded with claims that the evidence is clear, that the debate is closed, that we must act immediately, etc, but in fact

    THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE; IT DOESN'T EXIST.

    The proposed legislation would cripple the US economy, putting us at a disadvantage compared to our competitors. For such drastic action, it is only prudent to demand genuine proof that it is needed, not just computer projections, and not false claims about the state of the science.

    SCIENCE IS GUIDED BY PROOF, NOT CONSENSUS

    Finally, climate alarmism pays well. Alarmists are rolling in wealth from the billions of dollars floating around for the taking, and being taken. It is always instructive to follow the money.

    Robert H. Austin
    Professor of Physics
    Princeton University
    Fellow APS, AAAS
    American Association of Arts and Science Member National Academy of Sciences

    William Happer
    Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics
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    S. Fred Singer
    Professor of Environmental Sciences Emeritus, University of Virginia
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    Roger W. Cohen
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    Professor of Physics Emeritus
    University of California at Santa Barbara
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    Laurence I. Gould
    Professor of Physics
    University of Hartford
    Chairman (2004), New England Section of APS

    Richard Lindzen
    Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology
    Massachusetts Institute of Technology
    Fellow American Academy of Arts and Sciences, AGU, AAAS, and AMS
    Member Norwegian Academy of Science and Letters
    Member National Academy of Sciences

    End Reprint of Open Letter. #

    Editor's Note: Woods Hole Research Center is an environmental activist group -- not affiliated in any way with the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.
    http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1745/S...-for-ten-years
    ================================================== =======

    here is another article regarding this
    http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/ind...1-fc38ed4f85e3

    ================================================== =======

    Also there was that whole thing with East Anglia climate center manipulating their data to hide the decline in temps, and who is to say that these other government institutions are not doing the same? The emails that were leaked also included alot of computer code that had been doctored to give false results about climate data.

    And just to sum this up, what exactly do you think that a new Tax for the UN would do for the environment? How is paying money to a world government organization going to save the world from climate change? The ocean have been rising for at least 10,000 years or more. Glaciers have always melted, All of the inland lakes on earth were once glaceirs. WE are literally still thawing out from the last ice age. There is entire cities that are underwater around the globe, where was my car back then?
    Last edited by Blahm; April 10th, 2010 at 05:27 PM.

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    Even if all this is not true, a fuel independent world is very good. The world will also prevent another episode of this from happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckWeisel View Post
    Global warming is climate change but not all climate change is global warming. Logic motherhubbard, do you speak it?
    "logic motherhubbard" Ok what the hell over. If Climate change is cooling and warming. What we were talking about what GLOBAL WARMING. YEs Climate Change is Global warming is climate change but we were 100% on Global warming not climate change
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    I see logic is not welcome in this here town.

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    With Occam in mind climate change is used because it's a more comprehensive term since global warming probably leads to other climatic events other than just warming. While global warming is an apt term for global warming, climate change describes a larger phenomena.

    Sort of like natural selection wouldn't be used to describe the entirety of evolution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianWeeks View Post
    As for CO2, i believe that we had a global warming thread a while ago and somebody posted a video called "The Great Global Warming Swindle." I obviously watched it with a grain of salt, but their science sounded solid. Basically, (I hope I'm not misinterpreting) they said it has nothing to do with CO2, because, contrary to the message Al Gore spread with "An Inconvenient Truth," the affect is opposite, in that temperature rises in turn rise CO2 levels (with about a decade of discrepancy ), instead of CO2 causing temperature.

    They also quote something like earth's volcanoes produce waaaaaaay more CO2 than all of our factories in the world. I kind of find that hard to believe, and wonder how they got the numbers for that one.
    The important thing to note about that movie is that it's conclusions are contrary to the scientific consensus. I quoted a whole lot of scientific bodies on global warming in this post. The film uses out dated and selective data. The views of scientists featured in the movie were misrepresented, they have subsequently made statements including:

    Carl Wunsch:"I believe that climate change is real, a major threat, and almost surely has a major human-induced component." source


    Eigil Friis-Christensen:
    "it [a graph, as featured in the movie] incorrectly rules out a contribution by anthropogenic greenhouse gases to 20th century global warming." source


    Also note:
    "is The Swindle based on sound science? The answer, emphatically and objectively, is no. "CSIRO scientists

    "Amongst the selected contrarian 'experts' Durkin has rallied to his cause, there are Tim Ball and Patrick Michaels (who also happen to deny that CFCs cause damage to the ozone layer), and Fred Singer and Richard Lindzen (who, in earlier incarnations, had been active denialists of the link between passive smoking and lung cancer, despite neither having any medical expertise)."
    Scientist Barry Brook on the film
    (note those same names in the open letter that blahm posted. I'm not 100% familiar with that letter, I might make a more informed comment on it later)

    Re. volcanoes, volcanic CO2 is estimated to be a factor of 100 smaller than sources from human activity at the present time. source

    http://www.ofcomswindlecomplaint.net/FullComplaint/
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7517444.stm
    http://www.youtube.com/user/greenman...21/boj9ccV9htk

    Quote Originally Posted by Diarum View Post
    why did you change it from Global warming to Climate change
    Erm, don't read too much into what I called the thread dude. Calling it "climate change" was NOT intended as a suggestion that the climate is cooling, I'll change it to "global warming" if that makes you happy.
    Last edited by gjpetch; April 10th, 2010 at 08:24 PM. Reason: typo, adding a link

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjpetch View Post
    A completely unrelated thread here got sidetracked into a debate on global warming, hence I'm starting this thread so that the discussion can continue, and the old thread can get back on-topic.
    link
    See? That wasn't too hard was it?

    Now that we are in an appropriate thread whose title actually matches the discussion going on therein I can give give my opinion in good conscious:

    The world is certainly getting warmer, unless all the data that has been provided over the last 30 years has been wrong. The real questions are whether or not we are causing it and/or if we can stop it.

    Its already been pointed out that everything in nature is Cyclical, so its entirely possible that we are just coming out of a colder time and going into a warmer one. This kind of thing has had profound effects on our civilization throughout history (like the mini ice ages).

    I doubt there is too much harm to be done by trying to be greener, but there is a lot of potential for abuse (usually by Al Gore). I will say that it would be very nice to energy independent through green sources though.
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    Just to put this out here on the table.

    Who has the most to gain from all of this Carbon trading, carbon taxes, and "green" products? Business' they have a lot of money, they can make almost anyone do what they want them to do. Global warming activist get paid a good chuck of money to spread the fear of the world ending due to Global warming. So scientist are also paid to give evidence of Global warming weather its true or not.

    Why CO2, why would they choice CO2 out of anything else. Because CO2 comes out of everything, we breath it out (so really why not kill 99% of the human population that would fix the problem all together. If you control how much CO2 someone is allowed to emit then you control that the masses. You couldn't do anything without emitting Co2 because we breathe it out.

    The earths climate is WAY to complex to be just one thing, nature has ways of regulating everything. You think that humans are anything on this planet? We give ourself way to much credit. If the earth didn't like it, it would do something about it. 96% of all Co2 is in the water anyways. The plant life in the water is WAY more then the trees on earth before we started cutting them down. There is more Oxygen and Nitrogen in the atmosphere then Co2. They never tell us that CO2 can be held in anything other then the air so we all forget that its not all going to stay in the air.

    Nature still has ways of polluting too should we kill all of the animals in the world? Why not those bastards are breathing all of the Co2 out! And all of their poop and pee and farts they just cause so much Gas to Global warming that they don't need to live. Shouldn't they know that they are hurting their environment.

    And we need to stop eating because that is causing Global warming too. All of the food we make it causing Co2 and other Green house gases. We need to burn all of the farms so that they can't plant food. Guys you really need to stop drawing and writing paper, because that is cause Co2 to go in to the air and it will kill us. And your pens and pencils should not be made any more so we can eliminate that source of Co2. and that would safe trees so we can have more oxygen. And we shouldn't live in houses because that is wasting oxygen and cause more co2 to be made. And we need to no throw anything away because that also causes Co2 to be created.

    Ever hear of the Carbon credit thing? So that lets you pollute as much as you want if you have the money, so really it doesn't even affect anything. Its pointless and people use it to make trillions of dollars.

    Do you really want to give up all of your rights because think predict something is going to happen? The rich are banking on the fact that we will believe in Global warming so they can make more money and enslave us even fast and with more ease.
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    Lets say that Green house did in fact hold warmth in the atmosphere. Then how does the earth cool back down? As we all know green house gases reflect the heat back down, wouldn't think cause a never ending amount of heat hitting the earth causing it to become so hot that we wouldn't be here at this moment? Its had billions of years to accumulate. They "trap" heat in the atmosphere, How is it escaping and why has it take so long to amount to anything?

    "Scientific studies have shown that atmospheric Carbon Dioxide in past eras reached concentrations that were 20 times higher than the current concentration" Source

    Explain that how is it that the co2 levels were SO high during that time period? should we blame that on humans? So really again the Earth can do what it wants when it wants with levels of any gas that it choices

    "However, an increase in temperature always precedes an increase in carbon dioxide, which generally occurs decades or centuries after any change of temperature" Gee there is an idea.

    Green house gases don't work because the heat can just go around the clouds... never would have thought of that one.

    Lets say green house gases did affect anything, why is it just Co2 there is more then one Green house gas.
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    Diarum, read up on carbon cycles. To grossly simplify it goes something like this:

    Lets for the sake of argument say that co2 is the only greenhouse gas. (of course it isn't, but bear with me.) In one period (like this one) a lot of the carbon thats been stored away from the atmosphere (like in fossil fuel) gets released back into the amosphere. Things heat up. Polar caps melt, water levels rise. The larger water surface area and increased water vapour (clouds) bounce more light back out in space, reversing the trend and cooling down the earth. And while the earth was heating up, the number of algae and vegetation increased, omnomnoming co2 for photosynthesis, thus trapping it away from the atmosphere again. The earth cools further, and the cycle repeats.

    At least thats how i understand it as a layman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diarum View Post
    Who has the most to gain from all of this Carbon trading, carbon taxes, and "green" products?
    But we live in a capitalistic society. There's a demand for green products and renewable energy so markets will spring up to meet the demands.

    Business' they have a lot of money, they can make almost anyone do what they want them to do. Global warming activist get paid a good chuck of money to spread the fear of the world ending due to Global warming.
    What is this based on? What have you experienced in your life that proved that most people will do whatever a company wants because they get paid? This doesn't seem like something verifiable, just some sort of superstition based on negative news stories.


    So scientist are also paid to give evidence of Global warming weather its true or not.
    What scientists are paid? Paid by whom?


    Why CO2, why would they choice CO2 out of anything else. Because CO2 comes out of everything, we breath it out (so really why not kill 99% of the human population that would fix the problem all together. If you control how much CO2 someone is allowed to emit then you control that the masses. You couldn't do anything without emitting Co2 because we breathe it out.
    CO2 is a greenhouse gas. There is more than one. A green house gas is a gas that allows energy in yet traps some within the atmosphere instead of allowing it to escape back into space. This process is called the greenhouse effect. It heats up planets. Venus suffers terribly from the greenhouse effect.

    And it's not just CO2 getting picked on. Methane, Ozone and CFC's are also being targeted. There's been a ban on CFC's in the US for probably a decade or longer now. CFC's are in Styrofoam, aresol cans and freon I beleive. Ozone being 03 It's created by ionization of oxygen in the atmosphere. It occurs naturally. Also those air ionizing filters create them in a very small amounts. I did hear cow farms were being blamed for the methane increase. Though I think there's a place in the ocean floor near the north pole that is emitting large amounts of methane. Water vapor is considered a greenhouse gas but there's not much we can do about that.

    The levels of all these gasses are monitored closely. As shown in excess so far in the other thread, it has spiked above the natural cycle of increase. So it's not like everyone is targeting CO2 because that's one of the gasses we exhale. I'm fairly sure the respiration of CO2 emitting lifeforms on earth doesn't cause global warming because humans and those animals existed long before the spike.

    The earths climate is WAY to complex to be just one thing, nature has ways of regulating everything. You think that humans are anything on this planet? We give ourself way to much credit. If the earth didn't like it, it would do something about it.
    Complexity has little to do with it. Perfectly complex things have been explained in great detail. Humans have the ability to destroy ecosystems and species. Plus if you look at the emails in the supposed climate gate scandal, the complexity of the situation is discussed. These people wake up every morning and go to work to figure out what exactly is going on. They try to figure out what causes contribute to global warming and all it's affects.

    Nobody is proud of causing problems. This whole "It's just an expression of human ego to think that we can affect climate" argument is silly. I think the expression of ego here is the idea that people are allowed by nature to do whatever they want. The Earth isn't sentient. "The Earth doesn't "do something about it." because something threatens life. 99% of the species to ever exist are extinct. One of those mass extinctions was caused by excess methane from the ocean floor. Earth didn't take care of it in time to save everyone. The idea that the Earth will just go "oh man this isn't good, let me fix it guys" and everything will be okay is stupid. That's why if industry and current technology is causing climate change, then we should probably do something about it.

    96% of all Co2 is in the water anyways. The plant life in the water is WAY more then the trees on earth before we started cutting them down. There is more Oxygen and Nitrogen in the atmosphere then Co2. They never tell us that CO2 can be held in anything other then the air so we all forget that its not all going to stay in the air.
    But there are increasingly less trees. And what do you mean 96% is in the water? Chemically? Most of the Earth's crust is Oxygen. Yet it won't do us a damn bit of good when it comes to breathing. Seems like someone's manipulating language to make it sound like it's something it's not.

    .... created.
    Again, nobody is talking about your farts (Which are mostly Nitrogen and hydrogen, not CO2). I think the only things being discussed are industry and technology. Cars, power plants, factories, etc.

    Ever hear of the Carbon credit thing? So that lets you pollute as much as you want if you have the money, so really it doesn't even affect anything. Its pointless and people use it to make trillions of dollars.
    I agree that carbon credits are stupid. But the alternative is government regulation. If that happened, and it probably will, then you'd be crying about communism.

    Do you really want to give up all of your rights because think predict something is going to happen? The rich are banking on the fact that we will believe in Global warming so they can make more money and enslave us even fast and with more ease.
    What rights are you being asked to give up? Al Gore is going to take your free speech? Second amendment? And it's not some silly prophecy. If this warming trend continues things are gonna get bad. Weather will get nastier and if it goes on further than that we will begin to turn into Venus. Those are logical conclusions to current events. Nobody is saying that in 2012 the sun god will come down and burn everyone alive.

    The rich are banking on the fact that they can get in on a developing industry that will surely take off. Just like oil. Just like electricity. Just like food. Just like any young industry that hasn't been conquered yet. It's not a conspiracy, it's economics. That's a sign of a healthy capitalist society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slash View Post
    Diarum, read up on carbon cycles. To grossly simplify it goes something like this:

    Lets for the sake of argument say that co2 is the only greenhouse gas. (of course it isn't, but bear with me.) In one period (like this one) a lot of the carbon thats been stored away from the atmosphere (like in fossil fuel) gets released back into the amosphere. Things heat up. Polar caps melt, water levels rise. The larger water surface area and increased water vapour (clouds) bounce more light back out in space, reversing the trend and cooling down the earth. And while the earth was heating up, the number of algae and vegetation increased, omnomnoming co2 for photosynthesis, thus trapping it away from the atmosphere again. The earth cools further, and the cycle repeats.

    At least thats how i understand it as a layman.
    Well okay lets say that happens. There is more clouds, well what are clouds? they are water and Ice, So the clouds them selfs hold Co2 which makes the co2 lose it heat.

    And if there is more water then it would hold more co2 then it did before causing the co2 levels in the air to further lower.
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    I am sorry, I don't understand a word of what you're saying.. I mean, I understand the individual words, but i don't know what they are supposed to mean once put together like that.

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    A cloud is a visible mass of droplets, in other words, little drops of water or frozen crystals suspended in the atmosphere above the surface of the Earth or another planetary body.
    Dense deep clouds exhibit a high reflectance (70% to 95%) throughout the visible range of wavelengths. They thus appear white, at least from the top. Cloud droplets tend to scatter light efficiently, so that the intensity of the solar radiation decreases with depth into the gases, hence the gray or even sometimes dark appearance at the cloud base.
    Global Warming
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    Are you trying to confirm what i mentioned here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slash View Post
    . The larger water surface area and increased water vapour (clouds) bounce more light back out in space, reversing the trend and cooling down the earth.
    I'm seriously confused as to what you're trying to get across here..


    Might have something to do with the fact that its 5AM..

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    Global warming is for Soccer Moms and Sanctimonious Rich People.....global warming is anti-human, in developing countries.

    Until it's confirmed that Global Warming is not another Y2k hoax, it just seems like a political football over a very marginally detectable 'natural' gas that sustains life on Earth. Ever heard of the Krebs Cycle?

    By the way, Polar Bears are at their highest population level ever since the 1960's...due to heavy hunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diarum View Post
    Well okay lets say that happens. There is more clouds, well what are clouds? they are water and Ice, So the clouds them selfs hold Co2 which makes the co2 lose it heat.

    And if there is more water then it would hold more co2 then it did before causing the co2 levels in the air to further lower.
    ...um...

    This doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me, and I'm not exactly retarded. I don't understand what you're saying...
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