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  1. #1
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    Horrible video of the US killing innocent civilians. NSF weak stomachs

    http://collateralmurder.com/

    Please, spread out the word. CNN is covering Tiger Woods right now, and only one news source has this covered (aljazeera).

    Edit: thanks for your arguments, but please don't fight about it. I especially agree with the warzone argument, but the thing is the government tried to cover it up for 3 years. Also, compare the homepage of CNN to aljazeera. Aljazeera may be just as biased but they do give real news of the world and not news of stupid things. Proof: http://i.imgur.com/NVih0.jpg

    edit2: i dont think i can play modern warfare 2 now...

    edit3: all the news channels are covering this now, which is good.

    My stance on this - I don't hate the guys shooting from the helicopter (its completely logical - when you are in a warzone and see someone who looks like he has an RPG, it gets obvious from that point), but the government for covering this up. And im gonna donate to wikileaks for exposing this.
    Last edited by imnotanoob; April 6th, 2010 at 01:13 PM. Reason: errors when I wrote it on iPod + updates
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  3. #2
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    This happened in 2007. Watched the video today, makes me a tad angry people call it murder as if we just started shooting at random civilians.

    When you're in a war-zone with insurgents shooting at you left and right, you're on edge, especially if you're a helicopter pilot. If you watch the video you clearly see the two people (who we now know were cameramen) have objects strapped around their chest. With the grainy camera they're easily mistaken for weapons. To make it worse one seems to be carrying something long, which I assume was a tripod, which easily resembles a rpg. He then appears to peek around the corner at the helicopter. I can say without a doubt that if I saw that and was flying or gunning the damn thing, I'd fire too.

    Sad and unfortunate, yes, but cold blooded murder? Hell no.

    And oh the irony. Leaks like this tend to act as propaganda for the enemy, pissing them off and leading to even more deaths via bombings and whatnot.

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  5. #3
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    I want to emphasize the disclaimer - this is footage of actual people being killed.
    In the future, everyone will have 15 minutes of privacy.

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  7. #4
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    I want to emphasize whats your point? This war is horrible and sloppy. What you gonna do about it? Complain louder.

  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schnookiefoo View Post
    When you're in a war-zone with insurgents shooting at you left and right, you're on edge, especially if you're a helicopter pilot. If you watch the video you clearly see the two people (who we now know were cameramen) have objects strapped around their chest.

    Logical no doubt. On the other hand that's exactly what trigger happies can use as an excuse to commit collateral damage. And i'm not gonna automaticly presume this pilot was a normal person who just cracked under pressure, and not a sadistic f**k with excess firepower.
    Last edited by Kraus; April 5th, 2010 at 06:44 PM.

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    Because why wouldn't you just assume people to be sadistic fucks? Seems fair.

  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus View Post
    Logical no doubt. On the other hand that's exactly what trigger happies can use as an excuse to commit collateral damage. And i'm not gonna automaticly presume this pilot was a normal person who just cracked under pressure, and not a sadistic f**k with excess firepower.
    Err.. must be a little confusion. The gunner/pilot contacted command first after seeing what he thought was a weapon and requested permission to fire. Didn't just open up on them.

  11. #8
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    Your full of crap did you actually watch the video. They specifically say "He has no weapon", a van comes to help the one guy thats still alive and they say its approaching to "grab weapons".

    Its pretty clear they are BS'ing the situation to engage people they personally deemed as 'armed insurgents'

  12. #9
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    They say he has no weapon when hes crawling away, which is why they didn't shoot him again. If you get shot by a spray of 30mm rounds, your weapons gonna go flying.

    Insurgents usually take weapons from the aftermath of fights, which is why they opened up on the van. They've probably seen the same scenario play out countless times in real fights. They weren't BSing anything, seems they really believed he had a weapon. It's really sad, but seems pretty clear that it was all a mistake.

  13. #10
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    Looks like a open and shut case of murder to me. The video will either get buried in media and forgotten, with little repercussions, or the right thing could happen and the soldiers involved will be court-martialed/war crimes etc.

    What's even worse is that by their tone, they're seriously hammering that mindless goon trigger happy killer stigma most soldiers want to not be seen as.

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  15. #11
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    Ya they did shoot him again along with the guys who went to pick him up, after they said they were going to get weapons from the guy who they just said DIDN'T HAVE A WEAPON.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyFreeze View Post
    Ya they did shoot him again along with the guys who went to pick him up, after they said they were going to get weapons from the guy who they just said DIDN'T HAVE A WEAPON.

    Did you skip the beginning of the video? They thought the two men had ak-47s and rpgs.

    While crawling a way, he didn't have a weapon. At this point they said he didn't have a weapon - meaning he didn't have a weapon on him.

    This is the reason they didn't fire on him. They were going to wait for ground forces to come by and get him.

    Then the van showed up and they assumed it was there to get any surviving weapons that they thought were probably dropped. They proceeded to blow it away to prevent weapons from falling back into enemy hands. If not for the van, they would not of fired again. Not that hard to understand.

  17. #13
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    Ok this is retarded. Give me the time in the video at which the people in the van grab a weapon or have a weapon. If you can't that means they fired on unarmed civilians.

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  19. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by imnotanoob View Post
    CNN is covering Tiger Woods right now, and only one news source has this covered (aljazeera).
    Aljazeera is no more a reliable news source than CNN or the Daily Mail is. ie not. not at all.

    That said, Apache pilots enthusiasm for blowing things up is worrying.

  20. #15
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    I'm not familiar with the rules of engagement they use in Iraq, but I'm pretty sure if you drive a van into a combat zone to assist an enemy, you're fair game.

    They believed they had weapons. They were obviously in a combat zone seeing how it only took a few minutes for ground forces and armor to show up. If you see a van pull up to assist someone who you thought had a weapon, you're going to assume they had weapons too.

    They were unarmed civilians, not arguing that. I'm just trying to make the point that it seems it really was a mistake. In the heat of the battle they did what they thought was right. They were wrong and innocent people died because of it. I just don't it should be called murder. They didn't go out looking for civilians to slaughter for fun.

  21. #16
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    The main thing that I find worrying is that they COVER IT UP and say a lot of shit that didn't happen. They outright LIED. And this is a so called GOVERNMENT. No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it (as Ilaekae's sig says).
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  22. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schnookiefoo View Post
    I'm not familiar with the rules of engagement they use in Iraq, but I'm pretty sure if you drive a van into a combat zone to assist an enemy, you're fair game.
    How about "drive a van (that was already in) a combat zone and pick up some guy who got shot by a gunship from 3 miles away , get him to a hospital before he bleeds out"?

    They believed they had weapons. .
    Really? I didn't see any. I didn't see any evidence that they might have anything like weapons?

    Most of Iraq probably has an AK or two stashed, what threat does that represent to an Apache designed to survive Soviet AA guns on the grim European "Warhammer 40k" style battlefield that thankfully never actually happened?

    I reckon an AK would harmlessly bounce off..

    I suppose an rpg could be considered a threat, if they were shot by expert marksmen at 100 feet or less..But they weren't.

    That was someone twatting people a mile away with a 30 mm cannon.

    The part that worries me is that they seemed to be having fun.
    Last edited by Flake; April 5th, 2010 at 09:57 PM.

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  24. #18
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    Really? I didn't see any. I didn't see any evidence that they might have anything like weapons? Most of Iraq probably has an AK or two stashed, what threat does that represent to an Apache designed to survive Soviet AA guns on the grim European "Warhammer 40k" style battlefield that thankfully never actually happened?
    Are you daft? The pilots weren't worried about being fired upon , rather they were worried about the ground troops in the area, who had been fired on previously during this operation.

    You're blind if you don't see the ak47's that at least two guys are carrying(curious that wikileaks didn't point that out in the video). And you don't carry a tripod into a war zone. What are you gonna do? Set up a nice still shot while being fired upon?

    There is a prohibition against firing on medical vehicles if they're marked, which this one clearly is not. And wtf? 'Hey honey, let's take the kids in the van to pick up some dead people' If I weren't so cynical, I'd say they were using the kids as shields.

    War is hell. If you're shocked by this, visit liveleak.com more often. They've been showing these Apache videos for years.

    The main thing that I find worrying is that they COVER IT UP and say a lot of shit that didn't happen. They outright LIED.
    Proof? Link?
    Last edited by Elam; April 5th, 2010 at 10:15 PM.

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  26. #19
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    i saw it and i does look like the guy is holding something around the corner and pointing it or something, was probly a camera but you cant really tell from the video. And the second part where they shoot the missile into the building you can see the guy carrying something as if he is trying to hide it on one side of his body. Im sure they are aware of the helicopter and can see it. And you can hit a helicopter with and RPG. My friend was on a helicopter crew in Iraq and he said the dam things wizzed by all the time.

  27. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elam View Post

    You're blind if you don't see the ak47's that at least two guys are carrying(curious that wikileaks didn't point that out).
    Congrats on watching the video, oh wait you didn't. If you had would have seen and read the 'two guys with aks' are Russian reporters with cameras.

  28. #21
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    You're silly.

    You believe what you are told.

    "go you"!!

  29. #22
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    Its disgraceful to even try to defend those soldiers who spent a little too much time playing Call of Duty and wanted some action out of a boring day.

    You shoot if you can confirm they have a weapon, not guess they have one. Especially if you're up in the air and none of your partners are even near those supposed "men with AK47s". Who would they shoot at?

    Well now I know I better think twice if I'm a war photographer because both enemies and supposed allies will shoot at me and my so-threatening camera.

    It's stupid deaths. Those soldiers should at least lose their title, if they're not being criminally charged.

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  31. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyFreeze View Post
    Congrats on watching the video, oh wait you didn't. If you had would have seen and read the 'two guys with aks' are Russian reporters with cameras.
    Tell that to wikileaks. Even they acknowledge what is obvious(4th and 5th photo). Russians? Your just making stuff up. Try again.

    You shoot if you can confirm they have a weapon, not guess they have one. Especially if you're up in the air and none of your partners are even near those supposed "men with AK47s". Who would they shoot at?
    Wrong! I'm tempted to point you to the US military rules of engagement, but I won't because you should really do your own homework.

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  33. #24
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    Thanks for educating me Elam.

    You rule.

    And you're not a twat. Not at all.

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    Your welcome. Next time, try not to be so lazy.

  35. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elam View Post
    Wrong! I'm tempted to point you to the US military rules of engagement, but I won't because you should really do your own homework.
    I'm not speaking for the faulty rules of engagement, I'm speaking for my own moral standpoint. If you're on ground in the middle of a battlefield where you have no luxury for even a second of thinking before shooting, that I can understand.

    But this guy is above his "enemies" who are casually walking, and instead of even investigating it a bit more before passing judgement, he begs to shoot at those "bastards" who aren't even doing anything. He's an idiot and its unacceptable. This is not a video game, its people's lives they toyed with.

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  37. #27
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    As if the minute they started running instead of grasping their supposed guns was any indication that maybe those people aren't fighters... hey let's just keep shootin' till they're dead, and ask questions later.

  38. #28
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    spellcheck fked me that was suppose to be Reuters, not russian

    Saeed Chmagh and Namir Noor-Eldeen are both carrying something on their shoulders; Saeed a bag and Namir a camera. The men appear relaxed and unaware of being targets. The men are heading towards the corner of the street.

    It appears that a man in this frame is holding something that might be a weapon. Yes this is a ringing endorsement, something that might be a weapon. Which could be like a stick?

  39. #29
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    If I was busy winning Hearts and Minds from a heavily armoured, almost impervious Gunship, I might be a little more reluctant to open up on bitches with serious artillery.

    That's maybe just me though...I'm not a homicidal dick..

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  41. #30
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    If you were ever in the military, you'd understand things like this. Even being in a warzone at some point in your life will give you a different perspective. But sitting on the sidelines and judging actions of people without either being there, or interviewing them yourselves, you have no right to make such assumptions.

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