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Sorry for threadhijacking, but, Line, could you please tell me more about this? I'm from Germany as well and haven't heard about this government-sponsoring-artists thing (unless you mean social welfare/unemployment money).Let's get some things straight. Germany, where Algen lives, has quite a few things going for it but in this case two are most important.
1)There are institutions to study and the tuition is covered by the govenrment.
2)The government funds you if you are an artist. They pay your rent, your bills and give a salary, so you're off concentrating on getting better, nothing bothering your mind.
I think you need to have a degree to apply for that government art fund, or maybe have some sort of recognition. Maybe it's a contest, but I really don't know. What I do know is of this old ecuadorian artist that lives there, he was given a castle to work in. He is more of a contemporary artist though (with a somewhat long career), making performances and that type of shit, so maybe this "fund" doesn't apply to every type of artist out there (like us digital artists)
Some scholarships i know, they look at you very closely, they see where you are from, if you can afford an education, if you have a work that has nothing to do with your inclinaton (be art, sports or whatever), if you have time to study etc, the dont just give it to you because someone voted like a fame contest.
Last edited by zulu; March 18th, 2010 at 02:50 PM.
Whoah, reading that discussion was really interesting O_O
Expectedly, I dont agree with the whole 'Algenpfleger dont deserves a scholarship because he is already good enough to work!'-thingie.
We (I think I can also speak for him here) dont see ourselves in the end of our learning-journey. Why should we? There are still toooooons of artists who are way better than we are.
Imagine! Would you ever be like: 'Hey, I think I'm good enough now, I'll stop practicing from now on!' I hardly believe that.
Yes, we are able to get paid jobs, but why should we stop developing our drawingskills just because of that? imho that are both some compleatly different things, so I dont really understand why you're comparing them.
Hannes and I are both self-taught (I dont count the two or three month Alge was attending on the artschool, compared to his past journey he had learned nothing there). We've reached our skilllevel by working hard. And you can get there too if you do the same. No matter what you do I'm sure it will pay off in the end. So if you dont reach your goals yet you just have to work harder. I see my scholarship more like a reward for my last year, because in this year I really started practicing a lot.
And no, unfortunately Germany isnt the paradise and we have to pay our rents and bills here too XD
Jana, I agree with you that people should get rewarded for the work/practice they put in. Though it may be out of context to say that anyone can get there if you practice enough.
You have to understand that when someone has nothing economically, and not like being supported by parents orfamily during/after school, I mean those that are barely making rent, in poverty, etc. that anything at all, makes a world of difference.
So you have to look at what individual circumstances are rather than paint everyone with a broad brush and that's how scholarships should be given imo, rather than "Get to X and receive $$$" which works fine if it's in a non-educational context.
But I'll just note, nobody ever implied or made any sort of suggestion that you or Algen should stop practicing and improving your skills. They were more referring to how you have every capability to make money off of your work right now (good job with that, btw), to help pay for various educational outlets probably much more so than...likely, several others.
It's not a matter of "improving or not improving". It's just a matter of improving in what way - at what cost to others. Really, from the way many were looking at it, it's not even from the standpoint of "who deserves it", more a standpoint of "who needs it".
I personally don't really give a shit. The way I see it, "scholarship" has things like this written ALL over it, and so anyone going for it should know that moving in. If it was something different than what you normally get from scholarships, they wouldn't call it scholarships, they'd call it something else. I generally feel that everyone learns differently, and so don't really see the point. Personally. You're going to have to figure out things for yourself in the end whether you're getting schooling or not, the way I see it.
TAD could approach me tomorrow and say in all seriousness: "We have, for absolutely no reason at all, decided to award you - A. Listen, a full ride scholarship!"
All I'd have to ask would be: "Does that give my wife, myself, our 2 chinchillas, 2 parakeets, 2 hermit crabs, cockatiel, and green-cheeked conure a place to live on that money?" If the answer was yes, I'd take it for that reason alone. If the answer was no, then I'd have to politely decline and suggest they give it to someone else.
Go figure. I just hope that the scholarship winners get what they want out of it, and that those who missed out continue moving on with open hearts, and open minds. There's always more than one place to get what you need. Information, education, money, resources...whatever it may be.
On another note, I have two German friends and two Greek friends living in Germany.
The two German dudes are musicians and they play black metal and by black metal I mean this kind of stuff
and no they don't have a degree as musicians, they are self taught and have been writing and recording their first album and playing small gigs. They state their occupation as that of a musician. They are supported by the government as I mentioned earlier.
One Greek friend is a theologist, he studied in Germany and the government paid for everything. He had no scholarship, he won one that paid for his Masters and one that paid for his PhD, the meanwhile was being fed by Germany and was provided a house. Now he is a lecturer in the University he studied.
My other Greek friend is a girl who worked in a bar here in Greece and moved to Germany with another musician (also a Black Metal guitarist). She is being paid to go to seminars to learn German, she is given a salary and a home. A year ago she had a baby and the government now provides for that also. She doesn't even have to get a job yet because the government will provide until the baby is 3 or 5, I don't remember. Plus, they pay her musician boyfriend.
Now, I don't know the channels but these are very different examples of people I know very very well. At the same time, these people don't know eachother so it's quite hard that they all conspired to lie to me in such a specific way.
Germany is no paradise that's for sure, but if there were a place around here for me to train,be in a commercial art related place everyday with people who like and want to do the same thing as me, that's all I needed. Hell, even a group of like minded artists is enough!!!
I hope the german friends here try to look for this kind of funding, if you can get it, why not?
"Don't judge a book by it's cover" Frank Frazetta 1928-2010
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If someone wants further education, that's his/her choice. Why are people so...I dunno butthurt over who wins it because they have a skill level another person envies?
Obviously school as Jason has pointed out is what you make of it, and Algen's lack of it but dedication shows he can go far, but he may want to expand his skills to something he hasn't thought of.
Still I don't see why this thread is about Algen, it's like the focus is way too much, I'm just glad others who also worked for it got some scholarship awards too.
I dont think anyone is against any person in particular from winning, but this "community vote" thing is broken. It should be left to judges only.
also, there's no difference between making a new account just to vote, and logging in an unused account just to vote. the system is still broken.
Last edited by nauvice; March 18th, 2010 at 07:04 PM.
And then for a few people it does and nice things happen. But for most people, they're forced to realize that just because the snow has melted doesn't mean you'll be any better, or that the ones who were good before will be any worse.
You know...part of that whole "getting people's spirits up" thing.
Oh, that and hormones.
Actually, probably just the hormones. My birds have been going nuts lately, too.
is not about stoping and say "hey, im done here, im god now" like i said, we will die without knowing the half of it, thats why we practice, im self thought too, im still learning, im working with art etc, the whole point of this is this little thing, that people with common sense has, give to ones that have less, simple.
I dont want this, throug my life ive learned alone, i preffer this way, maybe ill die in a fiew months because im not good enough but i preffer it this way, besides this is not a classic academy.
to the hannes matter, he is good, and more advanced that the other guys in the poll by far, isnt hard to deside who wins, without counting the popularity thing.
and to be clear, im not against no one, im pro "do things the right way".
So now the system is broken because of it. Lurker accounts are now "unused" and the same as new throwaway accounts...guess those VBtools that let me see activity sure fooled me, it's all about post counts I guess. I just love this twisted rationale because it makes no sense. Maybe that's what he wanted to achieve, a good chance at going to a school that he'd get the most out of regardless of how high his skill level is now for you.
This isn't fan worship, I actually barely even communicate or even look at his sketchbook. I mostly have to spend most of my time on these forums bot hunting and killing out abusive accounts.
If you wanted to vote for someone who you think should have a full ride because their skill level looks like they could use some improvement and may have the drive, those are great reasons. You want to vote as a CA community member because that's "Your friend" up there that's fine too.
The thing is, saying it should be left to the judges, you do realize other winners of the scholarships too, such as Janischi...maybe Jani shouldn't have gotten it by your logic too, maybe the judging is just broken all together.
Hey you know what, why do they give out scholarships to left handed people, why can't they be more democratic in every scholarship that's handed out? That's just how it works. You hunt for any scholarship you can and try to get it. You win some you lose some. You can't expect everything to be some fancy Democratic setup. That includes the TAD ones. There is no perfect system. It's all run by humans who have different tastes and ideals and that's just how it is.
Just sad and ugly. Gonna close it because people just have to twist something because of other inadequacies in life.
Last edited by Arshes Nei; March 18th, 2010 at 09:08 PM.
This thread is mind boggling.
1. just because you come from a developing country does not mean you deserve something.
2. just because someone works their ass off, finds information anywhere they can, and creates a strong body of work they do deserve something
3. the winner was clear to me and I did not know Algen's work at all. Both he and Jana are self taught. Sure they can get jobs, and do already I am sure..but it is what they can become and create if they are pre-loaded with all of the information to be successful that we want to see. There is a lot of development in their works that need to happen. We believe in them. They earned it. To say that it is popularity is offensive. The work speaks for itself. Their work ethic shows. The winners have all been fair and square.
4. There seems to be a mix of envy and frustration in this thread. This is a shame considering the fact that EVERYONE has the ability to shoot for the scholarships. If you are not ready then get back to work. You can pick up free tutorials on the TAD site, more information on art than ever before in art history just by using the SEARCH function, and super cheap downloads too. If you are not taking advantage of all that then it is your own issue. If you are and have yet to truly understand it, then you are probably needing more time at your studies.
The scholarships have all been awarded on MERIT. It has nothing to do with what students do for the school. It has everything to do with our desire to create stars. Real industry stars. When merit is rewarded it encourages others to work hard and strive for greatness. If we gave everyone a "dinghy" so they could fish, half would not even fish just because they were given something for nothing. We are not here to reward those who have not put in the work or time. Nor those who create problems during such an amazing time.
Sometimes I think we just can't win. Set up a program and give free educations to the most deserving and get called all sorts of names. Reward those who have earned the scholarships and get told that they shouldnt get them because the winners are already proving themselves. Ugh. Wake up people. CA has ALWAYS rewarded merit. It always will. TAD is no different.
With that said, we are looking at the need based program this week. There will also be another round of scholarships for those who have yet to apply.
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Let me start by saying, concerning this, I'm largely at a point of neutrality. I'm just sharing...perspective, at least as I can interpret it. Please don't ban me. Thanks. Oh, also, if this thread was unlocked by accident, then I suppose this post wasn't supposed to exist, in which case - feel free to act accordingly.
But seriously, you're running a community of nearly 200,000 people. Two. Hundred. Thousand. I can understand your thought process and intentions very clearly, which is why I said before - I respect the ideals, and the intentions. But 200,000 people. That's 200,000 different thought processes, different backgrounds, different priorities. It would be more asinine for people to all magically agree. What kind of world would that be?
The priority for TAD and CA.org, apparently, is to "create stars". Not everyone wants to be a superstar, some just want to be adequate enough to be able to say at the end of their lifetime, that they made something of themselves. (Edit: Note, throughout most of this post, I'm not referring to my own points of view. I'm merely pointing out the various truths concerning people as a whole. My goal doesn't necessarily mean becoming a superstar, or just being "something". My goal is just to try my best, and see where it takes me.)
Given TAD's information page on its website:
I would've assumed "all artistic paths" included those who were not necessarily out to become superstars. You can see where there would be some confusion.Originally Posted by TAD Website
In addition, there are several instances such as this, where it does not necessarily seem like TAD will be creating superstars, as much as simply recruiting those who could already be considered as such. Everyone has every right to, and should by all means pursue their talents and the information needed to it's fullest potential as they see fit. But again, you can see where some confusion would arise.
There's a few things that could be done to make this a lot easier on you, and the rest of the community. Simple things, truly.
The first being, when announcing such things as scholarship winners - why not post their artwork as well? I think it would allow the community to be much more informed, and have a much better idea of what sort of work - what quality, style, or sheer magnitude seems to be working. Not to mention, it would just be cool.
If this sort of thing wasn't posted (it wasn't, was it? Not last time I looked, sorry if that's changed) because of privacy related issues. Perhaps a small note stating it.
The second being...
...Chill. Truly, like I'd said before - it's a community of nearly 200,000 members. Not including the lurkers that are here all the time without accounts. It IS an impossibility to please everyone, especially when there's money involved. There's very specific reasons why I'd said I didn't like it. This thread is proof of that...or rather, proof of how people react to it. You should've known months before even announcing scholarships that some people would wind up getting butt hurt over it. Such is life.
...christ, the only way you'll be able to avoid some criticism when you're doing something that big, no matter how generous it is...might be to shit out rainbows of talent to cover the globe in artistic brilliance. But I suppose even then, you'd have people complaining about how there were no superstars anymore, because everyone was talented, wouldn't you?
Chill man. If you think you're doing the right thing, then pursue it for all that your heart and soul is worth, and spout off a mental "Fuck you" to any who disagree. That's what I do whenever someone tries to call me out on something.
...well, sometimes I try to really consider their point of view and then send them a PM explaining myself, and we wind up coming to a really pleasant conclusion. That's happened a couple times recently.
But sometimes that doesn't work. That's when the "Fuck yous" are appropriate.
Another edit: Oh, let me elaborate on that last part a bit. What I mean to say, Jason, is that you posting here angry about threads like this - does nothing to help the situation. These threads were locked and tucked away nice and quiet. I, who even somewhat participated in this one, even PMed Arshes thanking her very sincerely for the lock on both threads. Negativity. Spreads. You getting hurt over this, is no different than anyone else getting hurt over it. Hurt, negativity, these things are contagious.
Here is why I say you can just chill, if this is what you believe is right: When you're right. You don't HAVE to do anything. You can just sit back, and the truth will prove itself. You, as the CEO, President of Massive Black, teacher at TAD, and founder of CA.org - do not need to show up in a thread like this getting mad over something so --- truly, small. If you're right, then no need to worry. Relax, enjoy your success, take comfort in what is your helping other people, and let naysayers be just that. It only adds further to the confusion when the man behind it all shows signs of frustration. This is your doing! Your baby! Part of your dream, surely! Do not allow it to be in any way lessened by your own actions. Whether or not I like scholarships and money, even I hate to see negativity spread in such a manner. Dreams are sacred.
I posted what I did here, because you - Jason, seemed confused and agitated. It is my hope, that posts such as this don't piss you off further. Rather, my intentions were to - from a point of neutrality, to help you see things in a manner you might not've considered before. Or to remind you of things you already knew, that were for a brief moment, forgotten. I recommend - should you consider it your best interest, relocking this thread - and even deleting my post if necessary to help retain what is the nature of this (as a whole, worthwhile) situation.
Last edited by Two Listen; March 20th, 2010 at 02:06 PM.
Even if there are 200,000 members, I think you'll find most of them are pretty inactive. The winner won with less than a 1,000 and that is still a tiny proportion of active members. There is never going to be a fair way to give scholarships, even though Arshes tried to eliminate the worse abuses. It always goes down to your gut instinct and we all know that can be wrong. Maybe limiting votes to those who have more than 100 posts in their SB and another 100 elsewhere might make it less a popularity contest. I know it would give the coders a headache.
Here we are, getting worked up over (by my count) equal to or less than 15 members who actually criticized in this thread. 15 people. I included myself in that number, even though I'd said I respect the intentions and ideals of TAD and was largely neutral to the situation. This is out of the currently active over 2,000 at this moment on the forums. I counted almost 1,500 just in the "viewing" numbers for the boards.
It's really, truly, no big deal. Is it really, in all seriousness, "mind boggling" to think that less than 15 people out of 2,000 would disagree with something?
...nope. Could've called that from a mile away.
Anyone whining is just jealous. :p
I myself said in another thread that sometimes, the best students ARE the ones who are already pretty good. Because they got there through a willingness to learn. Often times, less talented students are difficult to teach. They think they're hot shit, but they don't often listen to their teachers' advice, or even consider it. This makes already very talented students ideal for learning communities, - like I said in that other thread, the teachers probably look at them and think "Now here's a kid, whom I might actually be able to teach something!"
I understand this very well. I've lived on college campuses my entire life. Hell, Gary Kelley lives just a few blocks away from here. I understand the system, for certain.
But due to various factors, it's reasonable to expect some people to misinterpret things. It's not necessarily their fault. And it's not necessarily the fault of the ones in charge, either. Both parties could improve the situation - the ones in charge, by communicating their ideas and motives in a more precise fashion, and the community, by doing their best to utilize all they have available to understand things - be it the current situation, art, schooling, or the positions of others.
Last edited by Two Listen; March 20th, 2010 at 03:46 PM.
You know I don't even understand the argument that because someone has skill they don't qualifiy.
Try putting an Honor Roll student in place of Skilled Artist and see how that makes sense not to give someone a scholarship because they're already knowledgeable. "Well we know Billy could be a doctor, with those A's he's getting but we should be looking at a student with a C grade hoping he has potential to be the brain surgeon" Sure, I'm gonna see people line up to that doctor's office if he was a C grade lol.
Look at it this way too. People outside working of art still have a lack of understanding of whether or not you need a degree, a scholarship helps settle an achievement. So now you would say to someone they shouldn't get that scholarship under their belt? Yeah, let me go tell my close family "hey you know what I got a scholarship because my portfolio kicked ass and now I have a full ride to school. You know what though I'm not gonna take it because I can work in the industry." yeah that's gonna make me look smart
I should tell a pianist who is good he shouldn't get accepted to Julliard.
Or tell a really good dancer not to go to a good dance school to go further.
The other sad assumption is that skill level equates to wealth? I thought the term "starving artist" was used a lot for a reason. Someone with a higher skill level doesn't make them wealthier than any straight A student would be wealthier than a guy getting D's and F's.
Just some things to consider the next time a round of scholarships go up and someone wants to twist things into some "popularity" "less deserving" and what have you contest.
This whole drama has disappointed and confused me. I'm a bit saddened that people are dissing the People's Choice poll. Maybe I have it wrong, but I thought that it was an opportunity to offer the chance of a scholarship to people who hadn't been chosen by the judges on the other scholarships.
The people chose; and I'd like to congratulate the winner. You know what? If I'd been up for the People's Choice and I'd come second, third or last I'd be cringing at the drama because it would be devaluing something I'd worked hard for and pinned my hopes and dreams on. I'd feel like somebody had pissed on my parade.
As to asking people to vote for you, I can think of many, many times on here where somebody has asked the community to vote for them on some other community's competition. I cannot think of one time when anybody has publicly reared up on their hind legs and told the person asking that it was unethical to do so.
I'd really like to think that people who have been offensive to other people in the 2 threads in question would PM those people to apologise privately. I'd have even more respect for them if they looked at what they said and apologised publicly, but I'm too old and cynical to hope for that.
This was a competition; there are always winners and losers. Let's allow everybody some dignity and celebrate the effort they put in instead of moaning.
Oh, btw, I didn't win the Lottery again tonight. I'd like my money back, please...
Last edited by alesoun; March 20th, 2010 at 09:24 PM. Reason: typo
Cheers for the winners! I`m sure they totally deserve it! I would love to be in your place right now, so don`t screw up and take full advantage of it! some of the best artist in the world teaching how to rule so much... what an awesome opportunity.
When something good happens to you there will always be haters and jealous people, just ignore them.
I'm not sure if you guys even know what you're arguing about?
TAD has given out a bunch of scholarships for a variety ot amounts and a variety of things.
One of them was for the community to pick. They did, end of story.
Please don't write back a 10 paragraph rambling answer about existential angst and the plight of the universe, it won't do anyone any good.
I still think people haven't understood the essence of the discussion, but anyways, it doesn't matter anymore, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. One thing is true though - hard work pays off. Off to work then.
For a forum that is supposedly so intolerant of drama as this one, there seems to be a lot of willful misinterpretation of people's words to create the maximum amount of it in here.