arttorney/JParrilla/Ilaekae: The Thread of Miscellaneous Stuff!

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  1. #1
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    arttorney/JParrilla/Ilaekae: The Thread of Miscellaneous Stuff!

    Yeah that's right!
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    Last edited by arttorney; January 4th, 2010 at 09:52 AM.
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  3. #2
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    hey guys... just checking in. Im gonna start working on some Ideas. Just so you know I reserved the Magician and the 4 of Swords for myself.

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


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  4. #3
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    One of the ways we can deal with the phenomenon of everybody having different ways of going about drawing is to just have each be primarily responsible for two (or three) of the cards. This also makes it less agonizing to adapt to other people's schedules or trying to keep up if somebody is faster/slower etc.

    If we do it that way we would probably want to have a common color scheme, logo, or motif so our card set is identifiable as a team product.

    I got lots of old school stuff that can be used out of a Speedball Fonts book I have, and the following two books from the Dover Pictorial Archive Series: "1,100 Designs and Motifs From Historic Sources" (John Leighton) and "Borders, Frames and Decorative Motifs from the 1862 Derriey Typographic Catalog" both of which original prints are out of copyright. Dover has stated in each book, "You may use the designs and illustrations for graphics and craft applications, free and without special permission, provided that you include no more than ten in the same publication or project."

    Daestwen seems to prefer to leave it at a team lot of
    1. Ace of Wands
    2. Ten of Cups
    3. Moon
    4. Princess of Pentacles
    5. Ten of Pentacles
    6. Magician
    7. Four of Swords

    We are definitely in the category of a team with more Lesser Arcana and Daestwen has indicated that there are brownie points for that.

    The Victorian border here is an example of what can be plucked out of the Derriey book. The other book is line drawings Mr. Leighton made of Blazonry, frescoes, bas reliefs, etc. around the world in the early 1800s. Some of the line breaking and stuff happened when I went from high res down to internet res. What I did was to scan, value invert, clean, and drop it in behind the art in a different layer.
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    Last edited by arttorney; January 4th, 2010 at 06:39 AM.
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  5. #4
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    ok that sounds good. I dont wanna sound like im passing things onto you guys.. but it seems that your design backgrounds are much stronger than mine... considering mine doesnt exist. So it would make sense for you to do the stuff involving logos and font. Ill definetely give input but Im really not too skilled in that department

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


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    We all got the various kinds of stuff we can do, or can't do. It's understandable. Frankly, I'll be busy for another week finishing a Panels of the Week assignment and so I am just looking for ways to be productive here in the meantime.

    I'll put together a few sample card templates with a few boundary choices and post little jpegs on here for review. If we like one I can provide it as a high res file that is double size or something so it can be reduced and hopefully look great when the internal drawing is done.

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    I have a copy of the tarot and some other ref on the cards on the way--should arrive in couple of days. I also have POW and some critical work at house to finish by 11th, so I won't be doing any serious work on this until then. I'll post any ideas that might help in the meantime. Thanks for the posts, arttorney.

    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

    Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
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    Sounds good. Im trying to do this weeks CHOW as well so Ill be doing it along side this TEAM chow. Im gonna start getting sketches down for the Magician and the 4 of swords today. Ill post them to see what you guys think

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


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    Just for the record, here's the cards we have so far, based on the deck that daes is preferring for the base originals.

    The Ace of Wands and Ten of Cups were arttorney's choices.

    The Moon, Princess/Page of Pentacles, and the Ten of Pentacles were my choices, since they seemed to have the most difficult imagery to work with.

    The Magician and Four of Swords are JParilla's.

    I have some thoughts on the basic design approach that I'll post later today (I want to do a fast ref check first) that might help bring our disparate approaches together without too much trouble.

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    Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
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    Random thought...

    I'm beginning to see a trend here. Many of the rough pieces posted so far look like the prelude to glorious images of AWESOMEness that appear to have sacrificed the little details that make the cards what they are. They are NOT single images, they are complex interconnected collections of little images that relate in some fashion to tell one part of a story. This is more design than illustration, so I'm wondering how much importance is going to be put on the final importance (accuracy) of the card's imagery and how much on the splashy painterly artwork when we finally go to poll....

    No position or belief, whether religious, political or social, is valid if one has to lie to support it.--Alj Mary

    Ironically, the concept of SIMPLICITY is most often misunderstood by simple-minded people. --Alj Mary
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  12. #10
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    I kind of expected to see that kind of thing. I think we are required to have a figure of some sort, but I was also intent on keeping to the traditional spirit of the cards (such as not omitting the crescent moon inside the full moon, etc.). In short, you may be right about trends and we may need to decide right now whether we are going to jump on the "barely relevant eyecandy bandwagon" or resolve to do fresh treatments of the actual stuff that is really supposed to be there. Past experience around here suggests to me that an image that looks really awesome is going to have to be pretty damned irrelevant before most folks say anything. Certain mods such as Daestwen and Aly Fell are known to call people on stuff, though.

    I think the major Arcana have more important traditional symbolism than the Lesser, since on some decks the Lesser Arcana may have sparing depictions of anything other than suit indicators and numbers. I had thought the figure on those cards that don't usually have a figure would be an area of creativity and that figure might be doing something with the usual symbols (or wearing them).

    Here is a relevant patch of Daestwen language:
    Though often used as a form of divination, we'll be approaching it from a strictly design perspective. Each card is meant to tell a very particular tale (though this tale often depends on the reader) and has many symbols and meanings attached to it. The goal will be to do each card as a character-based (this is still chow) illustration to illuminate the meaning of the card. However, the specific meaning and the symbols will be up to you. We will, however, be following mostly to the Rider-Waite deck, with the exception that we will be using Princess instead of Page.
    So design is important, tale is important, and character based is important, and she tosses in that word "illustration" to round things out. Parsing it a little bit more tightly, I see that she seems to say the specific meaning and symbols are up to us. Personally, I think the commercial potential of a tarot deck is going to go hand in hand with what a person who uses tarot decks would expect to see for that card. If we made a Ten of Cups that stands for ten cauldrons of roofing tar being spread over the top of a junior high school it's just not going to carry that ultimate friends and family message the card traditionally means.

    Last edited by arttorney; January 4th, 2010 at 04:04 PM.
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    yea I think due to this being an illustration heavy community, there are going to be a lack of cards with a lot of design work. I myself am not to familiar with design ideas but am very willing to learn. I drew up a quick idea of a Magician.. falls into the typical fantasy image I have of a Mage. I think that this contest will weigh a bit more heavily on design.. at least it seems that way. But after all its still a CHOW so their does need to be a character or multiple characters

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    An idea I had about the Ten of Cups involved a giant toast. This is a little at variance from the flying glowing cups version but it is interesting from a narrative standpoint to illustrate an abundance of conviviality. My Ace of Wands idea for all practical purposes involved adding the rest of the figure to the arm in the ref version (as though the staff is being handed to the querent; the symbol of his brand new adventure).
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  15. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaekae View Post
    Random thought...

    I'm beginning to see a trend here. Many of the rough pieces posted so far look like the prelude to glorious images of AWESOMEness that appear to have sacrificed the little details that make the cards what they are.
    That's thanks to all the youthful energy that your competition posesses

    But in all seriousness yeah, there's always the chance that with the addition of glam and glitter that the meaning gets lost. I'm trying to keep a good balance of compelling illustration and faithfulness to the cards (going so far as to include the colour of the suit, the element of the suit, the overall meaning of the suit, the standard suit it represents like clubs, spades etc... and of course the meaning of the card itself) but I'm starting to see that I might be the only one who could pick up on it in the end due to all the crap I'm shoving in front of it.

    so I'm wondering how much importance is going to be put on the final importance (accuracy) of the card's imagery and how much on the splashy painterly artwork when we finally go to poll....
    I think dae was pretty clear about the whole thing being about the meanings of the cards translated in a different yet still effective way, so there's probably a good balance between subject meaning and aesthetics in the judging.

    Stick ter yer guns boi

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  17. #14
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    I have these available as oversize bitmaps that you can draw on and then resize times 0.67 along one edge with the aspect ratio constrained and everything should come out right. The field doesn't have to be white, necessarily, thanks to the magic of "bucket fill."
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    Here's a sample card back. As you might imagine there are a lot of doodads and filigrees that can be used to fill the remaining empty spaces. It's all a matter of how over the top you want to be about it.
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    Last edited by arttorney; January 5th, 2010 at 01:31 AM.
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  18. #15
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    Im digging those card back a lot.. Lets try to incorporate them

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


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    Do you think you would be able to copy/paste your drawings inside of a rectangle with margins like that top one for example? I can come up with marginal junk that is wider than this (probably not preferred as it takes away valuable space for art), or narrower. I just want to leave some room around the outside for possible inefficient automated card chopping.

    In the Leighton book there are a number of monograms and this evening I am going to put up some sample suit names using ornate initial letters plus calligraphy font. (e.g. "swords" starts with a drawn "S" that even incorporates a sword as part of the drawing, "Cups" starts with a drawn "c" that has a monk sitting in the crook of the "c" drinking out of a cup.)

    Last edited by arttorney; January 5th, 2010 at 12:24 PM.
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  20. #17
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    I couldnt stretch it enough because its distorting.. but like this?

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  21. #18
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    That's exactly the kind of thing I was visualizing. If I email you the big 300 dpi file of that sucker you can probably just draw right into it. It is good that there is room at the top and bottom in the one you made because the word "Magician" and a number likely have to go in there somewhere.

    Here's an example of the suit names I said I would make tonight. This is a 300 dpi .png file so perhaps emailing is not necessary on this one since it's right here.
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    As you can see it could still use a little bit of cleaning. I think "bucket fill like color" might be able to turn everything but the black into the swords theme color (or whatever the dominant background color you will use is). You would probably size this smaller before you paste it into a card somewhere. I will put a "4" in this font in this post later so you will be able to use this word and the "4" to label the four of swords.

    (Other fonts are available, by the way, but I am using something out of the Roman/Italic school because the tarot has so much background in that region).

    Here we go:
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    Last edited by arttorney; January 5th, 2010 at 10:34 PM.
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  22. #19
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    I like it.. I think drawing inside of the card is a great idea. Itll give us a good idea of setting up the composition. If we draw and then try to put it into the frame later.. were bound to hit compositional issues.

    "We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams."


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  23. #20
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    Cool. I'll keep my eyes peeled for an email so I will know where to send the big file.

    "P" and "w" are not in the Leighton monograms so I have to cobble ideas together using other things. Here is a rudimentary P, for pentacle. Knowing Ilaekae as I do, he can probably make a lot better one than this and we have a lot of time still. I think this thing was supposed to be a "B" before I did some paintover and paintunder work on it.
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    Leighton did provide a lot of blazonry and other stuff that can easily pass for pentacles. I can post some of that if we want to talk about what we would like to drop a P on top of. There is also a pretty cool line drawing after something he saw from Japan that has two lobsters and a crab on it (there is a crawfish on the moon card).

    all right. supper time. until tomorrow.

    Last edited by arttorney; January 5th, 2010 at 11:47 PM.
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  24. #21
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    Oo yea haha... umm send it to I think google gives enough space.. I hope so.

    Last edited by JParrilla; January 7th, 2010 at 09:06 PM.
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    just experimenting with placing font

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  26. #23
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    Cool. That's what I tried this morning too. Red is the color for Cups. (Jason Rainville posted a pretty cool chart of attributes in 42 Night Rangers if you haven't seen that)
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    OK. I wrote the address down and sent a file through. Actual size was already 7.4 MB so that is the file I have sent rather than the one that is 1 1/2 size. If you want to work up in size you can make a separate file for your drawing and then reduce it to paste into the file I sent.

    Last edited by arttorney; January 6th, 2010 at 11:24 AM.
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    Ooo ok I wasnt aware of color attributes. My goal for this week is to attempt a complete magician. Im gonna paint onto the card templates that you give me to work out compositions. Ill post my WIPs as I work. Im thinking I can do Magician this week, 4 of swords next week.. and then spend the rest of the time refining and changing stuff

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  28. #25
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    Found something from Byzantium I could flip and it became a P with a pentacle in there.
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    you guys need a cool name

    "Talent is a word found in the mouth of the lazy to dismiss the hard work of those who have achieved."
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  30. #27
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    Ha Ha! "The really busy guys who were too lazy to think up a name." Today I finished my Preliminary Invalidity Contentions on behalf of a patent infringement defendant. (44 pages of deep concentration) I probably couldn't think up a cool name to save my life.
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    Last edited by arttorney; January 6th, 2010 at 10:19 PM.
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  31. #28
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    OK, I am pretty much under control about my POW 36 entry and we are getting closer to the wire on this sucker. Here are my preliminary card layouts for the Ten of Cups and the Ace of Wands. Obviously one or more characters will have to appear in the central field of each of these. Less obviously, I suppose, my characters should have something to do with the symbolism of these two cards.
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    Last edited by arttorney; January 18th, 2010 at 09:31 PM.
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  32. #29
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    Here is the last of our various words I haven't yet constructed out of my calligraphy book in case Ilaekae wants it. I'll start actual drawing soon, I promise.
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  33. #30
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    I guess it's time to get crackin'
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